shmups.system11.org

I worked in event production for years, and there was only one real solution for that. For less permanent setups, just use small strips about 5cm apart along the cable.

https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Gaf ... 669&sr=8-6

I can certainly get on board with this! Those SCART cables from KabelDirect love to unfurl randomly and knock my OSSC and switches onto the floor.



I shouldn't need to tape my devices down for it to stay put.

I often hook up systems, converters or upscalers for just half an hour or so - just to so kind of test run. I would feel silly taping down my cables.

I know, not the same thing, but compare HDMI cables from 15 years ago, when the connector was just introduced, to slim HDMI cables you can buy today and that work perfectly well with way higher transmission than those cables 15 years ago.

I often test hundreds of pcbs at a time and have to tape down cables to a bench in order to relieve tension on the connectors. Gaffers tape is the easiest thing in the world to use. All you have to do is use a tiny tab to keep the cable from moving around, and it can be reused many times.

If that still rubs you the wrong way, then keep looking for different cables that claim to be soft and flexible and eventually you're bound to find one that works well enough for you.



This is a request for a temporary solution. Gaffers tape degrades eventually and you wouldn't want to rely on it for a permanent setup.

I shouldn't need to tape my devices down temporarily for them to stay put.

That's a good explanation. Part of that power loss creates a reflection of the signal that moves in the opposite direction. Can itself cause more interference especially being at the same frequencies. Bigger impedance mismatch the higher the frequencies so 240p and 480i aren't as bad as 480p or higher. Going between 50 and 75 ohm isn't catastrophic but I expect you can notice a difference in colors and sharpness versus 75 ohm to 75 ohm.

I think the most important part is to understand that there is a difference between resistance and impedance. I think people get tripped up because they think, "hey, why doesn't this cable measure as 75 ohms?" I ran across this web page about matching video signals that clearly demonstrates that the author has absolutely no understanding of impedance at all; in one of the bullet point, they actually say that the cables aren't 75 ohms because they don't measure any resistance. (insert emoji of guy slapping his forehead) https://chipnetics.com/tutorials/unders ... o-signals/

The cable impedance is AC. That's the important figure because it's what constitutes your video signal.

I got some tile samples and used double sided to secure smaller items to them. Flipped them over and put rubber feet on the bottom. They look nice and are heavy so everything stays put.

Did this for OSSC, some component to VGA adapters, and my controller adapters. Cost next to nothing. No cable changes needed.

Oh that's a great technique actually.

Not only is it AC, but impedance consists of both a resistive and reactive (capacitive/inductive) component. You can't measure the reactance with common tools

That scared me between a little and a lot. A cable being 75 ohm means its characteristic impedance is 75 ohms. Means if you had advanced equipment you could solve 75 = sqrt(L / C), where L is the inductance and C is the capacitance. These values are small and increase linearly with cable length. Thus the (L / C) ratio is constant and you get 75 ohms with 10 cm or 10 meters. These are the reactive components as maxtherabbit mentioned. The resistive component, R, is also small and increases linearly with cable length. Can be ignored at, say, 2 meters or 6 feet. L and C can be ignored, except in 2 cases:

-Impedance mismatch (AC only). The actual use of a 75 ohm terminator is to match the cable impedance to prevent reflection and reduce RF interference.
(and/or)
-Too long a cable length or too high a frequency. In AC, the textbook definition is characteristic L and C matter when cable length > (wavelength / 4). In our case of 6 MHz video, matters when cable length > ~9 meters or 30 feet. Too high a C will kill DC, which is one reason why transmission lines are AC.

Since we have an impedance mismatch, the actual correct way to model in a circuit is with a transmission line model. I was taught the so-called Pi model. Can more easily calculate the reflection coefficient and standing wave ratio with 50 and 75. I found a chart that shows 1.5 swr (75 / 50) loses 4% in reflected power. That is not much and we might be able to ignore except...luminance (brightness) and color saturation are amplitude modulated in analog television. A reflected wave will add or subtract those values, with more deviance from a greater mismatch.

Following up with this, I got an extron 160xi off ebay and wired up a scart to vga cable, and it doesn't seem to work. The orange light doesn't turn green when the PC engine is on and I get no video output. I tested a couple other 240p consoles like my SNES Jr and N64 both modded for RGB and using csync to see if maybe the extron or my cable was bad. The SNES Jr worked but the N64 Did not. The SNES also had some strange what I assume was probably interference or noise from my cable being poorly put together.
So I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing with the extron, if my cable is causing all these problems, or if I do need something like a sync stripper even with cysnc?


Thank you for the suggestions.
The mod doesn't have a switch between the syncs I don't believe. And I thought csync was clean sync, if the system is outputting cysnc would a sync stripper do anything? If my extron problems are because the sync is still not clean I guess I'll get a sync strike.

csync should be clean.



I doubt it. I don't know if the PCE outputs csync though, and I also don't know if your mod is pulling the sync from the PCE or it's providing it's own processed sync or something.



It might be jitter and not how clean the sync is. If the mod is just taking the sync from the PCE, it's possible that there is some jitter in that, similar to the SNES and NES which can create problems. I don't know much about PCE, so can't comment.

Hopefully someone who knows PC Engine can chime in. If not, maybe consider starting a separate thread.

My 2 cents: a lot of specialized RGB boards for the PC Engine seem to work perfectly well with stuff like the OSSC or hooked up directly to TVs and monitors, but they struggle with a lot of less common gear, in my experience. Back when I was using a real PC Engine, I had the most success for RGB connections with an old simple THS7314 amp.

Just a heads up for folks who haven’t seen this yet (RE: long cable woes)

https://www.retroupgrades.co.uk/product ... t-coupler/

Looks like a godsend for connecting a OSSC, Sync Strike, SCART2DVI etc etc to the output of gscartsw or any SCART switch that implements a female port for output

Looks like it is out of stock at the moment, but I’m sure they will have more soon - they also have an eBay page that may be cheaper for USA-based folks. I don’t have one so I can’t personally vouch for it, but their products all seem to be quite good quality. I know our own Fudoh can vouch for their run of the RetroTink VGA2SCART PCBs!

Is Escape from the Planet of the Robot Monsters' hall-effect joystick analog? If it isn't, what's the difference with a regular stick? Can the game be played with a regular stick?

This is use case is kind of fascinating to me. I started rolling the slow ball to make my own S-Video cables because I refuse to pay $40-80 for brand name and I doubt $8-10 generic is what I should be creating content with. PS2 problem mostly solved with the SCPH-10130 Multi Out with S-Video, Composite and Stereo female connectors to use whatever cables I want. Could easily exist for SNES-N64-GC family.

When we're talking what cables are made of, you'd think they would be all-copper but all-aluminum for electrical transmission lines became common in the 90s due to the rising price of copper. Aluminum has better flexibility, lower weight and cost with only slightly less conductivity. The greater heat loss was acceptable.

In AC, most of the signal is concentrated around the edges of the cable due to skin effect. Can get away with aluminum or even cheaper but worse conducting steel core with copper cladding around it. I never ran into stranded cable in my coursework but I can see that it's obviously more flexible than solid coax. Pure aluminum stranded cable exists too.

Getting on this...

Hello.
I want to use a composite AV downscaler+deinterlacer to reduce flickering and jitter
Input - AV RCA (PAL NTSC 480i 576i)
Output - AV RCA (240p 288p)
For PS1, PS2, Wii, etc. (which can't output 240p)
Where can I buy a hardware? Extron is RGB only?

You really want to use RGB for 480i->240p. The PS1 is mostly 240p, other than a few rare titles that use 480i for the menus and such.

PS1 has RGB. PS2 has the ability to output RGB and Component natively, and the Wii can output component, so there is no need to use composite. Most Extron devices have composite output, so you should be able to go into the Extron by RGB and output to your TV composite if that's all you have. Just check the extron device for outputs and such.

However, downscaling is also not the greatest idea in most cases. 480i is higher resolution, so you will lose some the of the information. If you get an Extron Super Emotia, it can average out adjacent lines and that will minimize the loss, but it's still not as sharp as the 480i picture is. Also, they are getting mad expensive, so expect to pay $300 or more.

AFAIK, the main use case for 480i-240p for a monitor is to display games that are natively 240p, but have been upscaled to 480i on the XBOX 360 or the PS2. Like many Shmups games collections came out on those systems at that time. Sure, you can also downscale other hi-res 480i titles to 240p just for fun, but I think it's really just a novelty and you wouldn't want to do that long-term. Perhaps someone like to do that, but I don't.

If the flickering really bothers you, you can also try an Extron VSC 700; there are flicker filters on those that I like for some content

Your cheapest option for downscaling to 240p is a GBS8200 modded with GBS Control, but it’ll need either 480i component or RGBS Csync input. On the output (after setting it to “15kHz downscale” mode) you can use one of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174578156353

^ he has a non-SCART variant where the input connector is a 15-pin VGA connector for the 240p RGBHV output from GBSC. Those should be back in stock soon

https://www.antoniovillena.es/store/pro ... o-adapter/

^ NTSC *AND* PAL

http://m.axunworks.com/RGB-to-Composite ... 41706.html

^ Expensive as hell, sure is a pretty lookin’ thing though!

Here’s a fascinating scan converter that could also work: it is one of the very few scan converters that accepts 15kHz input signals (so, essentially when it’s fed a 15kHz source it is a interlaced-only transcoder/encoder with lots of image adjustment options)! Only the CorioScan Pro *SG* models do so (and many TVone Scan Converters, who bought out Vine Micros... but those are gonna be ‘spensive). So you can encode your 480i RGBS / RGsB / RGBHV input into some nicely flicker-filtered composite out!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/302874971514

That's just their first Corio FPGA design with most of the processing features disabled. The Corio2 replaced that design later on. Even if that machine wasn't limited, it would still be worthless. That particular machine has no practical use. (Maybe it could be a door stop?)

--------
About the Extron VSC machines:
When it comes to proper scan converters, the Extron VSC machines stand alone. There's nothing even close.

The VSC 500 and 700 are the newest and best, but the VSC 300 and 900 also perform well.

The Extron machines outperform all the competition in almost every way. They have plenty of features to fine tune the output, they are easy to use, and they can be found at very reasonable prices. Extron machines even outperform significantly more expensive ImagePro units from Barco/Folsom. I doubt even the OSSC Pro will get all the features the Extron VSC machines have. They are the pinnacle of scan converters.

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About Corio2 machines and 480i output:
The Corio2 machines can output off spec refresh rates for interlaced signals if your display can handle it. That's the only feature the Extron machines don't have. Unfortunately, the Corio2 doesn't have a real frame lock, so it still won't guarantee perfect scrolling. Image quality isn't great.


----------
About iScan HD+ and 480i:
The DVDO iScan HD+ outputs 480i that should be frame locked, but it didn't let me fine tune the output much. Should be 6ms of lag. Image quality wasn't very good.

--------
About 240p and the iScan HD+:
The iScan HD+ gets forgotten in the downscaling discussion. It's the only 240p downscaler with frame lock. I had some compatibility problems with some of my consumer televisions, but the iScan HD+ does output 240p (and a PVM/BVM is probably going to accept the signal just fine). On a compatible display: 480p to 240p, frame locked, and 6ms of latency.

Was considering running the output of a RXI 201 into the OSSC input 2 as RGsB (Sync on green).

I know on input 1 of the OSSC the sync needs to be 75ohm and not TTL, but is sync on green something that needs to be attenuated?

... I had a CorioScan Pro (non SG) and it was a damn fine scan converter! Also had a Analog Way VHX480 in the past that was great!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLTtUail-Gf ... 3bnl7so4wv

^ first two pics in this post are the Analog Way RGBS, the PVM-2530 pics are Svideo on the CorioScan Pro. Damn fine 480i IMHO - have you even TRIED the old Vine Micros scan converters?

Fudoh wrote that need to use VSC+RGB Rxi units. Why?
What the difference in the RGB output between "480i with anti-flickering filter after VSC" and "fake-240p after VSC+RGB Rxi" ?
What the difference in the RGB output between 1. Extron VSC, 2. Extron RGB Rxi, 3. Extron VSC+RGB Rxi?
What the difference in the RGB output between Extron RGB Rxi and Extron RGB xi ?
What the difference in the AV output between VSC->AV and Emotia->AV ? Or both pictures will be good for gaming on PVM?

I'm not sure what signal goes to AV-out in the RGB-2YC. 480i or 240p. Has it some anti-flicker filters or not?
How to know which signal is coming through composite to the PVM: 240p or 480i?
And what real difference between "480i with anti-flickering filters" and 240p ? Will be both pictures are good for gaming?
What the difference between Extron VSC->AV and RGB-2YC->AV ?

VSC chained to a RGB interface with DDSP isn’t real 240p, just finely tuned flicker filtered and image position adjustable (depending on which Extron RGB interface)

You need a Corio2 (TVone C2-400 is a popular one) or GBS Control for true 480i -> 240p. Emotia is 480p -> 240p, no 480i option.

The RGB to Svid / Composite units do not downscale! They are an option for connecting to the output from GBS Control, or some C2 units have composite out. There’s a separate thread covering those units - one of those, or 480i RGBS (csync)/OR component YPbPr fed into a GBSControl unit, with its 480i to 240p downscaling activated, chained into a RGB to Svid / composite.

If you’re using a PC, then you just need the right video card (one that can do 240p) fed into one of those 15kHz RGB VGA To Svid/Composite devices I linked

Another option is always composite out of a Raspberry Pi, as well -
https://www.reddit.com/user/ErantyInt/c ... ope_unite/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To be frank though, un-altered composite or svid 480i is already gonna look good on many PVMs! Some PVMs have kinda bad comb filtering, in which case a cheap Faroudja VP100 may help a bit. Or, if you are lucky enough to find one, a Crystal Vision VPS-1.

Or snag some RGB/component cables if your PVM has said inputs

Wii 480i/576i (original composite/component cable) on both L2 and L4 is a real shimmering mess. Hard to look at it

GBS8200+GBS Control have no composite output

link?

That’s why I linked three devices that accept 240p and 480i RGBHV and output composite and svid - the 240p downscale of GBSC is either RGBHV or component if you activate component output in the advanced menu

Also here is a good Wii component cable - the separated wires in that ribbon-style make for virtually zero interference / crosstalk.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GDQ8I3U/re ... UTF8&psc=1

The Wii 480i output is known to be sharp. I could understand composite looking crappy because it almost always does, but the Component cables (YPbPr) should look fantastic on a PVM.

Your experience with it is atypical, so it's difficult to advise you.

Perhaps you for some reason don't like any interlaced content at all. If that's the case, buy a device that averages adjacent lines. (Super Emotia)

I would advise to first try a VSC 700 and turn on the flicker filter. If you are experiencing flicker in 480i, that will help a lot.

The reason Fudoh made the VSC-RGB suggestion is for arcade games that started out 240p. Many of the XBOX 360 and PS2 arcade collections are 240p games that were upscaled to 480i or 480p. If you want to play them in original 240p, the VSC-RGB solution works by throwing out every other vertical line.

If you try that method with native 480i games, you lose half the pixels. Super Emotia will do something different (average adjacent pixels) and GBS Control can do it, but it's a DIY project so may require some work from you.

This forum (Shmups) is essentially an arcade game forum, so many of the methods here are done for reasons that focus on that, so it's unsurprising that we are focusing on tricks to enhance the appearance of Shmups games,

Unfortunately the VSC 700 is limited to RGB input signals. I think the older VSC 900 was the only one of Extron scan converters that also accepted component instead of RGB.