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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:37 pm 



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 86
maxtherabbit wrote:
4V + 6dB is about 8 volts, 5V is perfectly fine


That's good to know and gives me some comfort using these monitors. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:05 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
What source do you have that puts the 3230 at 4Vpktpk? I think I've read all the technical documents released on that monitor and I've never seen mention of a specific voltage for the digital inputs, just that it's TTL.

The higher voltage one is always the sync, and for RGBS it's external sync, and the manual does say 4.0vpp for external sync on page 29:

External sync input:
BNC connector
4.0 Vp-p ±6 dB, negative
automatic 75-ohm termination

I have this monitor and I've never worried about it though - it's a PVM meant for standard sync signals which 5 would be.


I think it's talking about the analog connectors. The 3230 also has RGBI DE sized D-Sub connector that handles the digital (TTL) inputs. But I could be wrong there, I would have to reread the manual.


Quote:
I also don't know what the +/- variance means when it's listed in "dB".


Max already stated, but a 6 dB change doubles the voltage. You need to plot the function to see where you value lies, but you could just choose the upper voltage limit to see what change you have.

For example, if you look at the change of 4VDC to 8VDC you calculate: [dB = 20 × log (V2 / V1)] so dB= 20 x log (8/4)= 6.0205 approximately. That's your 6 dB change.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:31 pm 



Joined: 05 Jan 2021
Posts: 15
Location: Germany
hi, I would like to know if someone else has a Panasonic TX-8DW71W Intergraph InterView 28hd96 monitor crt.
I would like to compare the devices with mine.

That would be great, because you won't find any videos on the net. Thank you :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:50 pm 


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100 Mega Shock wrote:
hi, I would like to know if someone else has a Panasonic TX-8DW71W Intergraph InterView 28hd96 monitor crt.
I would like to compare the devices with mine.


I think that this question is absolutely deserving of it's own thread. Ideally, you will get multiple responses, and it would be of future benefit to keep it isolated.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:07 pm 



Joined: 05 Jan 2021
Posts: 15
Location: Germany
vol.2 wrote:
100 Mega Shock wrote:
hi, I would like to know if someone else has a Panasonic TX-8DW71W Intergraph InterView 28hd96 monitor crt.
I would like to compare the devices with mine.


I think that this question is absolutely deserving of it's own thread. Ideally, you will get multiple responses, and it would be of future benefit to keep it isolated.


okay where it would be better here. Can you re-embed it in the correct posting :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:13 pm 


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100 Mega Shock wrote:
okay where it would be better here. Can you re-embed it in the correct posting :wink:


I'm not a mod. I was making a friendly suggestion that you (and future searchers) would be better served by creating a unique post in the "Hardware" section of the forum. This thread, "Questions that do not deserve a thread," is in the Hardware forum, so you don't have too far to go to find it.

Also FWIW, I can't personally help and don't have knowledge of that particular monitor.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:22 pm 



Joined: 05 Jan 2021
Posts: 15
Location: Germany
Also FWIW, I can't personally help and don't have knowledge of that particular monitor.[/quote]

Thanks :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:23 pm 



Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 101
Has anyone here calibrated a TCL TV using HCFR? I've been trying to do so for a couple days, but I'm having a lot of difficulty. I've been using the expert picture settings on the phone app, but I just can't get my delta E values correct with it. I feel like there's something I'm missing. (I did my computer monitor and a VGA CRT with little issues).

I end up using these values in the app after measuring, but they seem really extreme, and the picture just looks terrible: https://imgur.com/kAAvBTB


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:29 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 231
How do HD CRTs convert 480i to 960i? Do they simply double every line (in a way the OSSC can't) or do they deinterlace, upscale to 960p, pad out to 1080p, reinterlace, etc.?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:28 pm 


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ross wrote:
How do HD CRTs convert 480i to 960i? Do they simply double every line (in a way the OSSC can't) or do they deinterlace, upscale to 960p, pad out to 1080p, reinterlace, etc.?


AFAIK the tube and deflection circuitry is incapable of displaying a 960i signal. It can only scan at 33kHz or thereabouts, so it's 1080i.


I'll assume you mean an analog 480i signal via the composite or component inputs; such a signal is first routed to a stand-alone, third-party chip that converts it into a digital signal. From there, it goes to the Sony DRC chip which converts it to 1080i. I'm not 100% sure what the DRC chip does to the signal at that point, and Sony never published what they do, so no one can verify anything, but people have their assumptions based on subjective analysis of the resulting image. FWIW, I think the image gets scaled to fit the center of the buffer in the 1080i raster, and then stretched vertically to make up the difference. In addition to being scaled, the DRC chip also clearly performs some "enhancement" to the image, digitally.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:14 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 231
vol.2 wrote:
AFAIK the tube and deflection circuitry is incapable of displaying a 960i signal. It can only scan at 33kHz or thereabouts, so it's 1080i.


I'll assume you mean an analog 480i signal via the composite or component inputs; such a signal is first routed to a stand-alone, third-party chip that converts it into a digital signal. From there, it goes to the Sony DRC chip which converts it to 1080i. I'm not 100% sure what the DRC chip does to the signal at that point, and Sony never published what they do, so no one can verify anything, but people have their assumptions based on subjective analysis of the resulting image. FWIW, I think the image gets scaled to fit the center of the buffer in the 1080i raster, and then stretched vertically to make up the difference. In addition to being scaled, the DRC chip also clearly performs some "enhancement" to the image, digitally.

Sorry, yes, I was referring to 960i 'hidden' within a 1080i frame.

Sony technical documents apparently state the DRC circuit converts 480i to 960i, with the MDI circuit responsible for converting 960i to 1080i. At least on the DA-4 and DA-4X chassis.

Like you said, I don't think there's much else to go off of, but it would make sense to me that these sets are strictly line doubling 480i to 960i before padding it out to 1080i if those two responsibilities are split between different circuits, rather than deinterlacing and using <2004's best scaling algorithms to upconvert 480i to 960/1080i. But I've never seen a HD CRT so I can't be sure that's what's happening (I'd be curious to see how line doubled 480i looks on a CRT though).

Is this DRC digital enhancement defeatable?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:01 am 


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ross wrote:
Sony technical documents apparently state the DRC circuit converts 480i to 960i, with the MDI circuit responsible for converting 960i to 1080i.


I've seen conflicting accounts of this, also on the AVS forum, also by credible members of the forum. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but I can't remember what it looked like the last time I studied the schematic. (which I have done to some extent) I believe it's most likely possible to sort of figure out the chain in that way, but it's been awhile.


Quote:
Is this DRC digital enhancement defeatable?


Yes. It involves turning off the DRC and adjusting the automatic vertical compression setting in the service menu. Once you do that, anything you input that is 33kHz is output without any molestation at all. If I remember correctly, you have to use either the digital inputs or the component video inputs for this to work. If you input anything else (like a 480i signal) it immediately overrides the DRC bypass and turns on the chip again. This is done because the CRT deflection circuitry can't scan down below 1080i.

It requires either a computer with the ability to control your output signal with high degree of precision, or a scaling device capable of turning your console into 1080i or 540p (960x540) . Either resolution is fine and they both display perfectly on the tube. If you go with a scaler option, you'll have to adjust the geometry in the service menu.

I use a Raspberry Pi with an HDMI output and RetroArch or Lakka. That allows you to set the video output in the kernel with modelines. You could also use as PC loaded up with CRT emudriver and tweak the hell out things.

I personally love the results of this kind of setup, but it's a bit of a pain in the ass to get going for the first time. It was my hope that the OSSC Pro would have the ability to do this scaling (automatic preset from input signal to 1080i/540p centered timings and padded to fit), or at least the ability to create a custom scaling profile that would achieve the same results. I mentioned it in the thread, but I don't know what the chances of it happening are.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:16 am 



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Posts: 231
vol.2 wrote:
I personally love the results of this kind of setup, but it's a bit of a pain in the ass to get going for the first time. It was my hope that the OSSC Pro would have the ability to do this scaling (automatic preset from input signal to 1080i/540p centered timings and padded to fit), or at least the ability to create a custom scaling profile that would achieve the same results. I mentioned it in the thread, but I don't know what the chances of it happening are.

480p from an OSSC padded out to 540p with an Extron DSC 301 HD could achieve that, I think. That's what some have been doing to get 960p from the OSSC displaying as 1080p on their flat panels.

Would add about a frame of lag though.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:16 am 


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ross wrote:
480p from an OSSC padded out to 540p with an Extron DSC 301 HD could achieve that, I think. That's what some have been doing to get 960p from the OSSC displaying as 1080p on their flat panels.

Would add about a frame of lag though.


I'm not really looking for a way to play 480i material in 540p, and even if I was, I don't think the OSSC handles deinterlacing well enough for me to use it that way.

What I'm looking for is the ability to watch 480i DVDs in 1080i and play 5 gen console games in 1080i or 1080i/540p in games that do resolution changes (like Dino Crisis). This is possible with a PC and CRT switchres, for example, thought it's a pain to setup (and hasn't seen a lot of updating for the past year).

The best candidate that I haven't tried yet is GBSControl, but I'm too busy for a new project right now, and my HDCRT is in storage anyway. I'll wait to see what happens with the OSSC PRo, and whether it has the functionality.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:46 pm 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 32
BVMD24 owner. Today, when I turned on the monitor, there was a shrill screeching coming from the flyback area. I took the top off and can see an orange LED next to the flyback lighting up. The orange light intensifies when I turn the contrast up, and the screen starts to shimmer violently. The light turns off and the screen stabilises when the contrast is turned down. Is the monitor fried?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:21 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 475
Surely the function of that orange LED is explained somewhere in the service manual?

https://www.retrorgb.com/servicemanuals.html


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:20 am 


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I've got a bit of a programming question.

I have an old Altera USB JTAG programmer from ages ago when I was adding palettes to my NESRGB.

The question I have is can I use this programmer to pull hex off of an 8 pin eeprom and then rewrite to it? I've googled a bit but I'm so rusty with all of this that I feel like I'm not asking the correct question.

Thanks in advance!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:44 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2021
Posts: 1
Okay, so I'm at my wits end and I really could use some hardware suggestions.

I have my PS3 hooked up to my sony trinitron CRT with YUV component cables. The trinitron takes a 480i signal from the PS3 (the "standard" setting in the PS3's output options). As you may already know, the PS3 has a huge amount of overscan when doing this. Furthermore, blu ray discs play windowboxed. It's also a huge pain to constantly have to change settings in the TV's super secret service menu.

To solve this issue I bought an Extron VSC 900 for its pan and zoom controls and user profiles. Fuck me, it doesn't accept a 480i input. Setting the PS3 to send 480p at 4:3 worked but I could never solve the constant screen tearing i was getting.

So I bought a DVDO iScan VP30 instead since it takes a 480i input and has overscan and underscan adjustment, and again it has user profiles. Fuck me it outputs 480p minimum. Even following the threads made years ago on this forum, I cannot adjust the user aspect ratio settings to output a 480i or 240p 60Hz signal that my TV will display properly.

So I hooked them both up together. Why not? Well, it kinda works but I get grainy horizontal lines everywhere (like how a bad coax connection looks).

Now what do I buy next as a final solution? I come to this forum asking if there is any kind of converter that will do a 480i YUV component pass-through that lets me zoom in, zoom out, and pan, and save it to a profile. Something like the cinemateq picture optimizer 2 except with underscan as well as overscan. Any suggestions before I ebay the VSC 900 and the VP30?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 am 



Joined: 30 May 2019
Posts: 12
My Extron CVC 300 shows a very thin white line on the right side of the outputted image when there’s lots of blue being displayed. Has anyone experienced something like this? It happens at multiple different resolutions when doing ypbpr -> RGBS and ypbpr -> RGBHV. Every ypbpr to RGB transcoder I try ends up having small problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:09 am 


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vol.2 wrote:
What I'm looking for is the ability to watch 480i DVDs in 1080i and play 5 gen console games in 1080i or 1080i/540p in games that do resolution changes (like Dino Crisis). This is possible with a PC and CRT switchres, for example, thought it's a pain to setup (and hasn't seen a lot of updating for the past year).


I saw a streamer who said she used PS3 with Framemeister because PS3 outputs a constant resolution for PS1 games that do resolution changes. Must be case for PS2 as well. Maybe to watch 480i in 1080i I'd consider looking for 2010 and earlier LCDs and Plasmas that capped at 1080i. Not saying they don't convert to 480p but possible they scale to 1080i instead.

Thanks for the advice jd213! I overlooked your post since I had the tab open and didn't refresh before posting. I like the link to the Nichicon capacitors that I see references to being the best to use. Can buy in US but the major suppliers price shipping high, I assume to encourage bulk purchases. Maybe I can write to My Life in Gaming and ask if they know how to open official SFC JP21 cable.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:27 am 


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NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
I saw a streamer who said she used PS3 with Framemeister because PS3 outputs a constant resolution for PS1 games that do resolution changes.


That's interesting to note. I don't actually need to do that though because I can play PSX stuff in emulation at flat 240p on a 15kHz setup.

Quote:
Maybe to watch 480i in 1080i I'd consider looking for 2010 and earlier LCDs and Plasmas that capped at 1080i. Not saying they don't convert to 480p but possible they scale to 1080i instead.


This would be specifically for watching material on an HDCRT. Yes, they scale everything to 1080i, but I don't like the scaling they do, and they scale everything, while what I'm looking for is a solution that will seamlessly switch between 1080i/540p, scaled and centered in the frame.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:58 am 


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vol.2 wrote:
This would be specifically for watching material on an HDCRT. Yes, they scale everything to 1080i, but I don't like the scaling they do, and they scale everything, while what I'm looking for is a solution that will seamlessly switch between 1080i/540p, scaled and centered in the frame.


Extron makes scaling presentation switchers that can accept 2 Component inputs and has horizontal and vertical image adjustment: https://media.extron.com/public/download/files/userman/68-2290-01_B.pdf
Would be convoluted but you could split the Component source and scale one to 1080i with switcher and keep the other at progressive. Perhaps you can find the scaling circuit in the HDCRT and bypass it.

On another note, I see why people downvote most questions on Reddit about PVMs and give no response. Ask if the PVM can support X video type from Y console versus thinking to see if there would be a user manual like all other televisions. Other side is asking why PVM RGB video is bad with various gaps of game console, cable type, video resolution, sync and RGB/COMP setting on PVM and sometimes there is a switcher or the PVM model number that they leave out. If from Raspberry Pi, no given Lakka configuration or emulator settings or shader used.

I think I need to make a written and video guide to the basics and then I can paste the link in every question for 1 cent ad revenue profit.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:15 pm 


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NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
Would be convoluted but you could split the Component source and scale one to 1080i with switcher and keep the other at progressive.


Nah. I already have convoluted solutions to the signal path. I'm looking for set-it-and-forget-it. Hoping that OSSC Pro lets that happen. If It doesn't, I'll eventually move on to GBSControl or the Raspberry Pi based scaling solution (which seems to be capable of a lot).


Quote:
Perhaps you can find the scaling circuit in the HDCRT and bypass it.


You cannot do it. HDCRTs were designed to be fixed scan rate monitors. They are hard set at 33kHz, so you can only display 1080i or 540p. All resolutions are scaled to that, and you were to try bypassing it, you would damage it or just get nothing. You can bypass the digital processing unit, but it maintains the bypass if you feed it a 1080i/540p signal. It has a self-preservation feature that makes sure everything goes to the screen as 33kHz.


Quote:
On another note, I see why people downvote most questions on Reddit about PVMs and give no response.


I think this happens for a variety of reasons. First of all, they are $$$, and not everyone has money, so it may seem like bragging in some cases to some people. To people who have them, there is a leet syndrome where they think you aught to know that shit already or you should figure it out yourself. And then there is just the dumb questions that don't make any sense because no one knows if there is something wrong with your particular monitor or your particular setup and trying to troubleshoot someone else's mistake remotely is an exercise in futility.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:17 pm 


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NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
Would be convoluted but you could split the Component source and scale one to 1080i with switcher and keep the other at progressive.


Nah. I already have convoluted solutions to the signal path. I'm looking for set-it-and-forget-it. Hoping that OSSC Pro lets that happen. If It doesn't, I'll eventually move on to GBSControl or the Raspberry Pi based scaling solution (which seems to be capable of a lot).


Quote:
Perhaps you can find the scaling circuit in the HDCRT and bypass it.


You cannot do it. HDCRTs were designed to be fixed scan rate monitors. They are hard set at 33kHz, so you can only display 1080i or 540p. All resolutions are scaled to that, and you were to try bypassing it, you would damage it or just get nothing. You can bypass the digital processing unit, but it maintains the bypass if you feed it a 1080i/540p signal. It has a self-preservation feature that makes sure everything goes to the screen as 33kHz.

EDIT: This only pertains to SONY HDCRTs and some others.
Quote:
On another note, I see why people downvote most questions on Reddit about PVMs and give no response.


I think this happens for a variety of reasons. First of all, they are $$$, and not everyone has money, so it may seem like bragging in some cases to some people. To people who have them, there is a leet syndrome where they think you aught to know that shit already or you should figure it out yourself. And then there is just the dumb questions that don't make any sense because no one knows if there is something wrong with your particular monitor or your particular setup and trying to troubleshoot someone else's mistake remotely is an exercise in futility.

Anyway, reddit is a fucking cesspool so just ignore all that noise. I use it, but very carefully and I don't get involved in anything controversial (even PVM posts).


Last edited by vol.2 on Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:18 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
You cannot do it. HDCRTs were designed to be fixed scan rate monitors. They are hard set at 33kHz, so you can only display 1080i or 540p. All resolutions are scaled to that, and you were to try bypassing it, you would damage it or just get nothing. You can bypass the digital processing unit, but it maintains the bypass if you feed it a 1080i/540p signal. It has a self-preservation feature that makes sure everything goes to the screen as 33kHz.

This is misinformation. Please stop making this blanket statement. Yes, SOME of them are made that way but I have a samsung that will NATIVELY scan out both 1080i and 480p


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:46 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
You cannot do it. HDCRTs were designed to be fixed scan rate monitors. They are hard set at 33kHz, so you can only display 1080i or 540p. All resolutions are scaled to that, and you were to try bypassing it, you would damage it or just get nothing. You can bypass the digital processing unit, but it maintains the bypass if you feed it a 1080i/540p signal. It has a self-preservation feature that makes sure everything goes to the screen as 33kHz.

This is misinformation. Please stop making this blanket statement. Yes, SOME of them are made that way but I have a samsung that will NATIVELY scan out both 1080i and 480p


Ah sorry MTR. I forgot about the Samsung guys. I'll edit the original statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:57 pm 


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We all know Groovymame is king when it comes to CRTs and suchlike, but does it have any advantage in terms of input lag reduction when used with a PC connected to a Gsync/freesync monitor or am I just better off using regular Mame in this instance?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:41 pm 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
We all know Groovymame is king when it comes to CRTs and suchlike, but does it have any advantage in terms of input lag reduction when used with a PC connected to a Gsync/freesync monitor or am I just better off using regular Mame in this instance?



You're still better off with Groovymame. Frame delay is a killer feature that seperates Groovy from the competition. On a powerful new machine, you'll get very good performance. Beyond that, Groovy still has a few other tweaks that aren't going to get merged into main Mame any time soon. Even without additional tweaks, Groovy will outperform stock Mame.

Mame's low latency mode was a nice improvement, but it doesn't close the gap.

Of course, the best option is to ask Calamity directly for a little clarification.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:52 pm 


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Perfect thanks, I'll set up Groovymame on my new rig :)
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Please check the XRGB Wiki before posting about the OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:55 pm 



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Posts: 10
If I was to measure the voltage difference on the CVBS input on the back of my Sony 14L4 PVM should I expect a voltage? My multimeter shows -2V on Line A, while Line B and the component inputs reads 0V. Wondering if this is evidence of a dodgy cap?

I'm been having progressive video degredation on two AV modded Famicoms which I had been testing using Line A and I've ruled out pretty much all the alternatives. The one I'm currently testing required the replacement of the capactior on the video output line after about an hour of use.


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