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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:49 pm 



Joined: 19 Oct 2013
Posts: 544
Location: Riverside, CA
Guspaz wrote:
Selling a rare $1000 monitor and hoping to find another super rare monitor just to avoid buying a $100 YPbPr-to-RGB converter is... not a great idea, in my opinion.

Of course, you need to modify the Beharbros Garo to get a good signal out of it, and the Shinybow has the limitation of needing to select the right resolution on the dial...

You wouldn't need csync for the XM29, since it has separate H and V sync inputs (and a straight-up dsub port), so the garo's invalid csync signal isn't a problem, but the other problem with the garo was that it drove the RGB outputs directly off the TI chip, which the TI chip datasheet specifically and explicitly says not to do, which leads to other non-sync issues (like blooming in dark areas). So the mod would still be required.


Neither that or a 20L5 is that rare, and no one should be paying that much for either... But yes, it does seem silly to avoid buying a $100 or less converter and needing to buy a different monitor instead. But if they're set on doing so, I'm interested in adding an XM29+ to my lineup, ha.

shroom2k wrote:
DejahThoris wrote:
You could just buy a YPbPr -> RGB converter. Cheaper and less work than buying/selling.


Can you name at least one such converter besides bhb Garo, which apparently isn't very good? I've been looking for one for some time.


Audio Authority 9A65 is the one this forum seems to rave about. But I bought a $12 one off of Granger's site they were clearancing out last year and it works just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:00 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 975
Guspaz wrote:
Of course, you need to modify the Beharbros Garo to get a good signal out of it, and the Shinybow has the limitation of needing to select the right resolution on the dial...


Extron CVC you mean, right? (about the dial)



DejahThoris wrote:
Neither that or a 20L5 is that rare, and no one should be paying that much for either..


They're both pretty rare (unless you want to ship from eBay and/or pay those prices). I'm at an obscene amount of PVM/BVM's and still never found an XM29 or similar model. Found WAY more BVM's and a few L5's.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:38 pm 



Joined: 19 Oct 2013
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Location: Riverside, CA
DejahThoris wrote:
Neither that or a 20L5 is that rare, and no one should be paying that much for either..


They're both pretty rare (unless you want to ship from eBay and/or pay those prices). I'm at an obscene amount of PVM/BVM's and still never found an XM29 or similar model. Found WAY more BVM's and a few L5's.[/quote]

Rarity is about availability, not about price. BVM's and L5's are very available. Just not cheap. There's even a guy out here selling L5's at less-than-ebay-but-still-expensive prices. He seems to have a few dozen at least.

XM29's don't pop up as often for sure, but if you're actively looking it shouldn't take that long to come across one if you have cash in hand and don't mind driving or shipping (freight, not trying to fuss with UPS/FedEx). I've found a dozen of the Mitsubishi XM29 rebadges over the past couple years for myself and other local collectors. I just really want one of the NEC cases, they look real slick with the handles up top like the PVM-2030. I loathe the haaaaate the beige case of the Mitsubishis... Then I could sell one of those on and have a nicer looking setup!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:44 pm 



Joined: 19 Oct 2013
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To toss in my own question:

There's something people don't like about the A series BVM's, but I can't remember what it is. I've been looking a while for a not insanely priced D32, but came across an BVM-A32E1WM. I know there's a reason to either be cautious or avoid the A series, but I cannot for the life of me remember why. So... why is A inferior to D, again?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:51 pm 


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Yeah, the Extron, I mean. But IIRC, nearly every converter has that black level problem (which causes the purple glow in certain fade-to-black transitions), because that's a problem inherent in the TI chip they all seem to use, and the datasheet doesn't provide enough info to fix the problem outside the chip. I'm no electrical engineer, I think Ste said it had something to do with the chip not having a reference for black or something? But that's a very small problem compared to everything else that was wrong with the Garo, so if you've got a converter that *only* has that problem out of the box, it's probably fine.

Has anybody done a teardown of the 9A65? Does it use the same TI LMH1251 as the Garo? Personally, I'd guess no, since it has LEDs for all four supported resolutions, while the LMH1251 only has a pin identifying if the resolution is 480i/480p or 720p/1080i (since those two sets of resolutions use a different sync signal). On the other hand, you could detect the difference pretty easily with counters on the sync outputs, I'd guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:56 pm 


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DejahThoris wrote:
To toss in my own question:

There's something people don't like about the A series BVM's, but I can't remember what it is. I've been looking a while for a not insanely priced D32, but came across an BVM-A32E1WM. I know there's a reason to either be cautious or avoid the A series, but I cannot for the life of me remember why. So... why is A inferior to D, again?


The A-series BVMs don't support RGB or YPbPr without the BKM-68x input board, the BKM-68x is very expensive and much more rare than the A-Series BVM itself, and the BKM-68x input board does not support most 240p consoles (won't sync). IIRC an alternative was to use the SDI inputs with an extra frame of lag, and there was some thought about using some sync processors to get retro consoles on the BKM-68x, but I don't know if that went anywhere.

EDIT: Bob did a writeup of his experience here: https://www.retrorgb.com/bkm-68x.html


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:42 pm 



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Location: Riverside, CA
Guspaz wrote:
DejahThoris wrote:
To toss in my own question:

There's something people don't like about the A series BVM's, but I can't remember what it is. I've been looking a while for a not insanely priced D32, but came across an BVM-A32E1WM. I know there's a reason to either be cautious or avoid the A series, but I cannot for the life of me remember why. So... why is A inferior to D, again?


The A-series BVMs don't support RGB or YPbPr without the BKM-68x input board, the BKM-68x is very expensive and much more rare than the A-Series BVM itself, and the BKM-68x input board does not support most 240p consoles (won't sync). IIRC an alternative was to use the SDI inputs with an extra frame of lag, and there was some thought about using some sync processors to get retro consoles on the BKM-68x, but I don't know if that went anywhere.

EDIT: Bob did a writeup of his experience here: https://www.retrorgb.com/bkm-68x.html


Thank you. I knew that there was something that made this less than ideal. And while it's much cheaper than the D32's, probably not worth it overall.

Does SDI have lag inherently, or just conversion from RGB/YPbPr to SDI?

HDMI -> SDI okay? It'd mostly be for HDMI consoles, but with the space it takes up it'd be ideal if it could handle the rest too...

And if HDMI -> SDI is fine, would it be sensible to just use an OSSC in between and call it a day?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:06 pm 



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Assuming the A32 comes with at least the Y/C (S-video) input card that'd be good enough for me to be all over it (if affordably and reasonably priced). The quality and the size makes it worthwhile even without RGB. SDI is laggy, and cuts chroma subsampling, regardless of conversion. This is the same on the D-series. But at least the A-series SDI card doesn't have the annoying fan.

If it only has SDI but no analogue input cards I would have to think twice about it. I guess it all depends on how good the price is. What kind of deal are you looking at, BTW?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:19 pm 



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fernan1234 wrote:
Assuming the A32 comes with at least the Y/C (S-video) input card that'd be good enough for me to be all over it (if affordably and reasonably priced). The quality and the size makes it worthwhile even without RGB. SDI is laggy, and cuts chroma subsampling, regardless of conversion. This is the same on the D-series. But at least the A-series SDI card doesn't have the annoying fan.

If it only has SDI but no analogue input cards I would have to think twice about it. I guess it all depends on how good the price is. What kind of deal are you looking at, BTW?


Under 1500USD all told. Has the 62HS and 61D cards installed. So I'm not really sure. I mean yes, it's much cheaper than your average D32, but if it's going to be noticeably laggy, and I can't actually use it for anything, then... :/ .

I had thought that HDMI -> SDI was a pretty simple process.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:06 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 583
DejahThoris wrote:
Under 1500USD all told. Has the 62HS and 61D cards installed. So I'm not really sure. I mean yes, it's much cheaper than your average D32, but if it's going to be noticeably laggy, and I can't actually use it for anything, then... :/ .

I had thought that HDMI -> SDI was a pretty simple process.


I guess the last thing I'd factor in are total hours and condition of the tube. If those are good, I'd get it. I'd just use S-video for all standard res stuff, which would have no lag issues, and SDI for sweet HD video. If your intention was to use this as an all-purpose and also play HD games on it, then that would be less ideal, but who knows, maybe that one frame of lag or whatever wouldn't be a big deal for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:27 am 



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fernan1234 wrote:
DejahThoris wrote:
Under 1500USD all told. Has the 62HS and 61D cards installed. So I'm not really sure. I mean yes, it's much cheaper than your average D32, but if it's going to be noticeably laggy, and I can't actually use it for anything, then... :/ .

I had thought that HDMI -> SDI was a pretty simple process.


I guess the last thing I'd factor in are total hours and condition of the tube. If those are good, I'd get it. I'd just use S-video for all standard res stuff, which would have no lag issues, and SDI for sweet HD video. If your intention was to use this as an all-purpose and also play HD games on it, then that would be less ideal, but who knows, maybe that one frame of lag or whatever wouldn't be a big deal for you.


One frame of lag isn't a big deal to me. 3-4 and I start to notice. I don't need to play shmups on it or anything, I have cabs for that.

I would like it to be a catch-most CRT out of one so big though. Everyone's information conflicts though. Some say no lag, some say lag. Some say it's gorgeous, others say the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 is night and day and trash. Can't win, ha.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:52 am 


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SDI doesn't have any inherent lag, but it's been reported (though not in any way I'd call confirmed, maybe somebody did a side-by-side) that there's a frame of lag. That could be from the HDMI-to-SDI conversion, or from the input board itself? I don't know.

One thing to keep in mind is that the SDI card will *only* do 480i, and the HD-SDI card will *only* do 720p and 1080i (and the PAL varients of all that). There is no support for 480p. Which is fine, because you won't find an HDMI-to-SDI adapter that does 480p either, that was a standalone standard (SMPTE 344M, or ED-SDI) that nobody supported.

I'm not sure SDI's chroma subsampling would be a problem on 240p consoles on account of the fact that those consoles are already basically running at half the normal horizontal resolution, and unless I'm misreading things, SDI's half bandwidth chroma signals are still almost double the bandwidth of NTSC's color signal like you'd find on S-Video.

Bob from RetroRGB has done SDI tests with the A-series BVM, I think, so you should ask him how well it plays with the OSSC, which would presumably be your digital video source for conversion.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:39 am 



Joined: 19 Oct 2013
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I appreciate the detailed reply, Guspaz.

I think I'll bite. I don't own a display that plays nicely with 480i right now, so that'll be a small positive for me. And then WiiU/360/PS3/Switch/PSTV should all play very nicely at 720p natively, and if the OSSC works out, I'm golden.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:26 am 


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You should really ask Bob about his experience first, I've never used the BVM and all my HDMI-to-SDI experience was with 1080p signals, so I have no idea how the OSSC will play with all that...


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:14 pm 



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Location: Riverside, CA
Guspaz wrote:
You should really ask Bob about his experience first, I've never used the BVM and all my HDMI-to-SDI experience was with 1080p signals, so I have no idea how the OSSC will play with all that...


I did. He said he never got it working but sold his A series two years ago. So maybe with newer firmware, but probably not likely.

I did get a first hand account that the Framemeister works very well with it though. So, worst case scenario I pick one up again.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:32 pm 


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That would probably explain what he meant by adding a frame of lag, then: 1.5 frames from the framemeister. Doesn't help you get 240p into the monitor, though.

A BVM with no 15khz input support for $1500 seems like a waste to me, because if you're going to be limited to sending it 480p+ signals, you might as well just use a PC CRT with an OSSC/Framemeister. That's going to probably give you an equivalent experience for a hell of a lot less money...


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:36 pm 



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Location: Riverside, CA
Guspaz wrote:
That would probably explain what he meant by adding a frame of lag, then: 1.5 frames from the framemeister. Doesn't help you get 240p into the monitor, though.

A BVM with no 15khz input support for $1500 seems like a waste to me, because if you're going to be limited to sending it 480p+ signals, you might as well just use a PC CRT with an OSSC/Framemeister. That's going to probably give you an equivalent experience for a hell of a lot less money...


Doesn't the Framemeister deal with 240p signals? Just not as well as the OSSC.

I already have the PC CRT with OSSC, an FW900. And it's not very good for a group as it isn't very big. 32 should be a solid jump up.

And I think I'd be hard pressed to not get my money back if I am disappointed. I see a couple sold 20" A series with no 15k at over $1000.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:57 pm 


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The Framemeister does upscale 240p to 480p, but at that point, what is the advantage of displaying it on a CRT? It's no longer lag free (it'll have more lag than an OSSC on a fast LCD), it no longer has the 240p scanline CRT look (and faking it using scanlines on a 480p image will produce thin scanlines)... You've turned the CRT into a digital display with a bunch of processing lag, and an LCD or OLED monitor or TV makes a much better digital display than a CRT does.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:17 pm 



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strayan wrote:
Does anyone know the exact timings an Extron 301 HD uses when set to output 1365x768? How would I go about determining this?


Anyone able to help me out?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:28 pm 


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strayan wrote:
strayan wrote:
Does anyone know the exact timings an Extron 301 HD uses when set to output 1365x768? How would I go about determining this?


Anyone able to help me out?


It should be VESA 1368x768 with a few active "pixels" removed and distributed to the front and back porches. Shouldn't matter which of the porches you choose to increment by two.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:30 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
The Framemeister does upscale 240p to 480p, but at that point, what is the advantage of displaying it on a CRT? It's no longer lag free (it'll have more lag than an OSSC on a fast LCD), it no longer has the 240p scanline CRT look (and faking it using scanlines on a 480p image will produce thin scanlines)... You've turned the CRT into a digital display with a bunch of processing lag, and an LCD or OLED monitor or TV makes a much better digital display than a CRT does.


Convenience. The display works mostly out of the box (just the HDMI to HD-SDI conversion) for all the other things I was actually aiming to buy it for. Being able to display the rest as needed would be a bonus, and enough of one to make the decision.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:33 pm 



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i have a US dreamcast along with US confidential mission, US death crimson ox and US house of the dead 2.

which two guns should I buy to ensure enjoyment + compatibility? i already saw that the JP gun should be avoided. are all JP/EU guns incompatible or is it just the official JP gun?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:17 am 



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What do people recommend for double-sided mounting tape/adhesive, e.g. for NES/SNES dejitter board installs?

I've been using these 3M mounting squares, but it just occurred to me that I don't know what would happen if I ever need to remove them.

Is there any risk of it pulling off solder mask, or damaging traces? In the future, should I first lay down some electrical tape on the PCB before attaching the mounting tape?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:35 am 



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orange808 wrote:
strayan wrote:
strayan wrote:
Does anyone know the exact timings an Extron 301 HD uses when set to output 1365x768? How would I go about determining this?


Anyone able to help me out?


It should be VESA 1368x768 with a few active "pixels" removed and distributed to the front and back porches. Shouldn't matter which of the porches you choose to increment by two.


You wouldn't happen to know how I convert that to raw EDID? I'm trying to save it to a Dr HDMI.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:50 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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copy wrote:
What do people recommend for double-sided mounting tape/adhesive, e.g. for NES/SNES dejitter board installs?

I've been using these 3M mounting squares, but it just occurred to me that I don't know what would happen if I ever need to remove them.

Is there any risk of it pulling off solder mask, or damaging traces? In the future, should I first lay down some electrical tape on the PCB before attaching the mounting tape?

I expect they're more expensive than electrical and mounting tapes, but I don't see why you couldn't use some type of Command strip for attaching the dejitter board. Just make sure the pull tab is accessible.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:21 pm 


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copy wrote:
What do people recommend for double-sided mounting tape/adhesive, e.g. for NES/SNES dejitter board installs?

I've been using these 3M mounting squares, but it just occurred to me that I don't know what would happen if I ever need to remove them.

Is there any risk of it pulling off solder mask, or damaging traces? In the future, should I first lay down some electrical tape on the PCB before attaching the mounting tape?

I doubt it, double-sided tape isn't really that strong


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:49 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
copy wrote:
What do people recommend for double-sided mounting tape/adhesive, e.g. for NES/SNES dejitter board installs?

I've been using these 3M mounting squares, but it just occurred to me that I don't know what would happen if I ever need to remove them.

Is there any risk of it pulling off solder mask, or damaging traces? In the future, should I first lay down some electrical tape on the PCB before attaching the mounting tape?

I doubt it, double-sided tape isn't really that strong

I'll second that, but it's a pain to remove. In my experience, the foam in the middle tends to fail, and then you end up with adhesive crap on both the thing and what it was stuck to.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:56 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
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MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
i have a US dreamcast along with US confidential mission, US death crimson ox and US house of the dead 2.

which two guns should I buy to ensure enjoyment + compatibility? i already saw that the JP gun should be avoided. are all JP/EU guns incompatible or is it just the official JP gun?


None of the DC light guns work good, even the official once in JP that Sega made and never made it to the states (and won't work with some NTSC/USA games either fyi - it's locked out).

You can read more about the problems: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=64989&p=1378847#p1378847

....they're still playable for sure, and can be fun, just don't think they'll touch the accuracy of the other consoles light guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:14 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2015
Posts: 119
Dochartaigh wrote:
MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
i have a US dreamcast along with US confidential mission, US death crimson ox and US house of the dead 2.

which two guns should I buy to ensure enjoyment + compatibility? i already saw that the JP gun should be avoided. are all JP/EU guns incompatible or is it just the official JP gun?


None of the DC light guns work good, even the official once in JP that Sega made and never made it to the states (and won't work with some NTSC/USA games either fyi - it's locked out).

You can read more about the problems: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=64989&p=1378847#p1378847

....they're still playable for sure, and can be fun, just don't think they'll touch the accuracy of the other consoles light guns.

but in terms of compatibility, would any imported UK gun (aside from the official UK gun) work? i cant find a compatibility list anywhere except "the official jp gun only works on jp games."


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:46 am 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1425
MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
i have a US dreamcast along with US confidential mission, US death crimson ox and US house of the dead 2.

which two guns should I buy to ensure enjoyment + compatibility? i already saw that the JP gun should be avoided. are all JP/EU guns incompatible or is it just the official JP gun?


None of the DC light guns work good, even the official once in JP that Sega made and never made it to the states (and won't work with some NTSC/USA games either fyi - it's locked out).

You can read more about the problems: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=64989&p=1378847#p1378847

....they're still playable for sure, and can be fun, just don't think they'll touch the accuracy of the other consoles light guns.

but in terms of compatibility, would any imported UK gun (aside from the official UK gun) work? i cant find a compatibility list anywhere except "the official jp gun only works on jp games."

My understanding of the Dreamcast light gun issue is that all the peripherals are region-free, but there can be software lockouts on specific games. For example, the North American version House of the Dead 2 includes a software lockout that detects the Japanese light gun and prevents it from being used. I was unaware of there being a PAL-region light gun for the Dreamcast, so I'm not sure if that version is also affected.


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