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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:18 pm 


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MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Actually, before that, be sure the monitor supports YPbPr to begin with, as far as I can tell, the XM29 and XM29/XP29 Plus don't support YPbPr at all, while the XM29/XP29 Xtra do. My guess (unconfirmed) is that the breakdown looks like this:

XM29: No
XM29 Plus: No
XM29 Xtra: Yes
XP29 Plus: No
XP29 Xtra: Yes

so 640x480 is supported by the xm29 plus, but not 480p through ypbpr?


The XM29 Plus does not have any YPbPr inputs to begin with. It doesn't support it at any resolution. Only the XM29 Xtra and above seem to have YPbPr inputs on the back of the monitor.

I don't think the XP29 Plus does either, for that matter, the XP29 Plus and XM29 Plus have the same manual, and does not show any YPbPr inputs on the back, unlike the manual for the Xtra models.

Here's the XP29/XM29 Plus manual, you can see from page 6 that it does not have component video inputs.

https://isurplus.com.au/manuals/NEC%20X ... Manual.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:40 pm 



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werk91 wrote:
Thanks a lot for your help everyone, I guess the easiest (and cheapest) approach for me would be to use RetroTINK + one of those Portta HDMI to Component converters and that would result in flicker free 480p component signal from the PS2 that I can feed into the PVM.


I forgot that the RetroTINK 2x can upscale 480i into 480p. How does this compare to other options out there? (mainly DVDO and Framemeister). Does it do it lag-free? (I know line-doubling can be nearly instantaneous, but don't know much about deinterlacing).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:15 pm 


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It's lag-free bob, just like the OSSC. That's all you can really do without a framebuffer, because even conceptually simple options like "discard every other field" requires you to buffer an entire field so that you can send it out at half the speed you're receiving it, and weave deinterlacing needs the entire past field in memory so that it can weave in the current field.

Bob deinterlacing, on the other hand, only needs like one scanline of extra memory, if that?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:49 pm 


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MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Why would the component inputs be limited to 15 kHz? Component video typically goes up to 720p/1080i (45 kHz for 720p). The BNC inputs support VGA input too, since they have the five plugs for RGBHV.

my bad I guess i was not clear. if i use the bnc rgb station for 240p consoles, that leaves the rgb1 (dsub) station open, which ideally i would use for 480p content. how would i be able to convert component to use on that without any quality loss/lag?


Can't speak to lag, but I believe that the Audio Authority 9A62 is the device people used to use for this. However, they are kind of scarce at this point. Kind of a fringe use-case I think, so price shouldn't be crazy if you manage to find one. Maybe someone else here could comment on lag?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:57 pm 


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Right, but assuming it's a model that supports component input, put the 480p YPbPr signal into the BNC ports, and the 240p RGB signal into the d-sub port.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:40 am 



Joined: 26 Nov 2017
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Hi
I've a VERY noob question about an hypothetical scenario.

Considering the use of an LCD display, is it better to:
- connect a groovyMAME PC + VGA-SCART cable to a Framemeister
- use a MAME PC with HLSL
???
technically speaking, which is the best solution?

Thank You in advance!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:47 am 



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Does anyone know the exact timings an Extron 301 HD uses when set to output 1365x768? How would I go about determining this?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:49 am 


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naoto wrote:
technically speaking, which is the best solution?

GroovyMAME with HLSL : much less lag and better picture.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:35 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
Bob deinterlacing, on the other hand, only needs like one scanline of extra memory, if that?

Two actually - or at least 1.5 for an extra-clever implementation which may not be worth the effort.

Since you need to output each line twice, you need to have the first pixel of the previous input (current output) line available at the middle point of the current input line. After that point pixels that are outputted can be overwritten in memory with new data from the input, so 1.5 lines of memory would be enough for line-doubling. I haven't worked out what it would take to implement an address generator for such a scheme, but it feels like it would be rather complicated. If you use two line buffers instead, the implementation is pretty straightforward as you can just switch between them after each input line.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:07 am 



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Xyga wrote:
naoto wrote:
technically speaking, which is the best solution?

GroovyMAME with HLSL : much less lag and better picture.


Thank you for the quick answer.

Let's deepen the issue
if there aren't any CRT available, is always better use an emulator (*) with some sort of HLSL or filter, instead of the original hardware + Framemeister ?

(*) let's consider only working/stable emulators (i.e SNES, PSone or 8 bit systems)


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:47 am 


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Yes, unless you already have a significant collection of games and consoles, or are a maniac for accuracy, lag etc.

In any case the FrameMeister is mostly obsolete, today retrogamers use the OSSC (multiplier instead of scaler, lagless, features scanlines and basic crt effects)

But even with the OSSC the same logic applies; unless you already have a lot of consoles and games, don't bother.

And even if you have just the consoles, buying everdrives instead of games, getting the right consoles (with modchips, rgb mods, etc) for getting along best with the OSSC, the investment in time and money is still significant.
The OSSC also requires a TV or monitor with good compatibility and scaling, which is not always easily accessible, either because of price or availablility.

Honestly, a decent PC with a good monitor or TV, and good USB controllers, is good enough, if not better sometimes, for every old console that is considered fully-stable in emulation.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 pm 


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I find the idea of emulation is great but in practice I never play games that way. There is something about the visceral experience of taking a game off the shelf and putting it in the console that can't be beat.

Yes I am a goober.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:33 pm 


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Sure, but for anyone considering getting into retrogaming today, starting from scratch or very little, with maybe yet unfitting/unmodded equipment, and beyond everything: lacking games, then it's a completely silly amount of time and money to invest. A real vortex.

Putting the money into the hardwares that aren't well emulated, or not well-enough, is the only rational thing to do.
And flashcarts/ODL everywhere possible, that doesn't forbid to buy games anyway, but building a worthwile collection today is only for rich fuckers.

We old OCD nerds who have already bought tons of the good stuff decades ago are a niche category crowd, so I never recommend relative newcomers to the hobby to imitate us.

For 8bit up to the PS1; get emulators, a good display, good controllers, and play, don't waste you money on hardware that will make almost no difference in practice.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:04 pm 


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I'm not sure why someone today would even try to get into it fresh, to be honest. I don't think you have to be rich though. Some people are just really bad with money.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:23 pm 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
I don't think you have to be rich though. Some people are just really bad with money.

I'd say today starting from scratch if you want to build a good collection from most essential machines in a relatively short time (only a few years), you need either a modest exective position income, and no heavy loan/family/cost of living, or you have to care for the latter and then you better have at least a middle executive income, or whatever equivalent.
Positions that don't mean 'rich' by the standards but have become more scarce/enviable these days no matter the country even 1st world.

Or you have less than that to spend and don't mind taking a decade or two, if not more considereing prices never stop climbing, to build that collection.

Of course I don't include arcade pcb collection, in which case middle-exec is a strict minimum to even start.

Really, usually these days people who are well-enough and somehow weren't impacted by the economics changes since 2008, or haven't tried to buy any significant titles in ages, don't realize that retrogaming has become a luxury hobby.
Everyone else does though...
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:33 pm 


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Hmm, I have spent $725 on old games over the last two weeks. I guess that's a lot.

Spoiler: show
That is fairly abnormal spending for me though. Usually about 2 months worth of budget but you have to strike when the iron is hot.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:38 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2015
Posts: 119
Guspaz wrote:
MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Actually, before that, be sure the monitor supports YPbPr to begin with, as far as I can tell, the XM29 and XM29/XP29 Plus don't support YPbPr at all, while the XM29/XP29 Xtra do. My guess (unconfirmed) is that the breakdown looks like this:

XM29: No
XM29 Plus: No
XM29 Xtra: Yes
XP29 Plus: No
XP29 Xtra: Yes

so 640x480 is supported by the xm29 plus, but not 480p through ypbpr?


The XM29 Plus does not have any YPbPr inputs to begin with. It doesn't support it at any resolution. Only the XM29 Xtra and above seem to have YPbPr inputs on the back of the monitor.

I don't think the XP29 Plus does either, for that matter, the XP29 Plus and XM29 Plus have the same manual, and does not show any YPbPr inputs on the back, unlike the manual for the Xtra models.

Here's the XP29/XM29 Plus manual, you can see from page 6 that it does not have component video inputs.

https://isurplus.com.au/manuals/NEC%20X ... Manual.pdf


is it possible from wii to use ypbpr cables converted to dsub (through an adapter or something) to achieve 480p on the nec xm29 plus? is this method a normal method, or does it add lag/quality loss?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:45 pm 



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MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
is it possible from wii to use ypbpr cables converted to dsub (through an adapter or something) to achieve 480p on the nec xm29 plus? is this method a normal method, or does it add lag/quality loss?

The manual makes no mention of YPbPr or YUV, which tells me that it has no capability to process/decode YPbPr; so, it seems to me that the only way that you're going to be able to get an image from your Wii, using a component cable and an RCA to DE-15 adapter, is if your Wii is outputting RGsB (Which itself probably requires a WiiDual mod installed); otherwise, you're going to need some kind of converter to convert YPbPr to RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:51 pm 



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nmalinoski wrote:
MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
is it possible from wii to use ypbpr cables converted to dsub (through an adapter or something) to achieve 480p on the nec xm29 plus? is this method a normal method, or does it add lag/quality loss?

The manual makes no mention of YPbPr or YUV, which tells me that it has no capability to process/decode YPbPr; so, it seems to me that the only way that you're going to be able to get an image from your Wii, using a component cable and an RCA to DE-15 adapter, is if your Wii is outputting RGsB (Which itself probably requires a WiiDual mod installed); otherwise, you're going to need some kind of converter to convert YPbPr to RGB.


it seems kinda complicated. maybe it would be better to use component cables on the BNC station, and SCART to the dsub? since there are scart to dsub specialty cables out there? thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:58 pm 



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Xyga wrote:
In any case the FrameMeister is mostly obsolete, today retrogamers use the OSSC (multiplier instead of scaler, lagless, features scanlines and basic crt effects)


Speak for yourself! The OSSC is pretty horrible on 480i consoles like PS2, whereas the Framemeister is one of the best (and is why I still keep my XRGB-mini around). And the PS2 is still the highest selling console ever so it's probably safe to say there's millions upon millions of them out there still!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:11 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
Xyga wrote:
In any case the FrameMeister is mostly obsolete, today retrogamers use the OSSC (multiplier instead of scaler, lagless, features scanlines and basic crt effects)


Speak for yourself! The OSSC is pretty horrible on 480i consoles like PS2, whereas the Framemeister is one of the best (and is why I still keep my XRGB-mini around). And the PS2 is still the highest selling console ever so it's probably safe to say there's millions upon millions of them out there still!


Did the issue with reds ever get resolved for PS2? I thought most people used a DVDO to handle that machine.

Did it get fixed in a firmware update?
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Last edited by orange808 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:12 pm 


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Sure Doc! but naoto asked about older systems, and arcade emulation.

EDIT: on the topic of PS2, it's annoying but there isn't just one choice, sometimes I prefer a DVDO (or FM if I had one), sometimes the OSSC, and with the games that can be forced to 480p, well, it really depends on the game, some just look good-enough straight to display, some not...
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Last edited by Xyga on Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:15 pm 



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MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
is it possible from wii to use ypbpr cables converted to dsub (through an adapter or something) to achieve 480p on the nec xm29 plus? is this method a normal method, or does it add lag/quality loss?

The manual makes no mention of YPbPr or YUV, which tells me that it has no capability to process/decode YPbPr; so, it seems to me that the only way that you're going to be able to get an image from your Wii, using a component cable and an RCA to DE-15 adapter, is if your Wii is outputting RGsB (Which itself probably requires a WiiDual mod installed); otherwise, you're going to need some kind of converter to convert YPbPr to RGB.


it seems kinda complicated. maybe it would be better to use component cables on the BNC station, and SCART to the dsub? since there are scart to dsub specialty cables out there? thoughts?

If your Wii is unmodded, it will only do 480p in YPbPr using a component cable, then switching inputs won't help, because that display does not appear to support YPbPr at all. You will need to either get a YPbPr->RGB converter or figure out how to get your Wii to output 480p in RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:29 pm 


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Just as a reminder: https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?threads/wii-native-vga-version-1-4.2176/


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:34 pm 



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nmalinoski wrote:
If your Wii is unmodded, it will only do 480p in YPbPr using a component cable, then switching inputs won't help, because that display does not appear to support YPbPr at all. You will need to either get a YPbPr->RGB converter or figure out how to get your Wii to output 480p in RGB.


fuck it then Ill just sell my nec xm29plus I guess. time to hunt for a PVM/BVM that supports 31khz through ypbpr. i dont wanna do any of this "go-through-hoops" bs.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:35 pm 



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Does the N64 scart cable carry audio?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:05 pm 



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MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
fuck it then Ill just sell my nec xm29plus I guess. time to hunt for a PVM/BVM that supports 31khz through ypbpr. i dont wanna do any of this "go-through-hoops" bs.

You could just buy a YPbPr -> RGB converter. Cheaper and less work than buying/selling. It's just running one extra cable.

That being said, if you are selling your XM29Plus, shoot me a PM. I'm interested.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:16 pm 



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Windfish wrote:
Does the N64 scart cable carry audio?

Any AV solution for the N64 is going to have some way to get audio out; it's not like there's a way to get audio and video out separately, like what's needed for the GameCube's component cables.

If you're talking specifically about the official SCART adapter, what you'd have to be mindful of is that all it is is a passive composite video and stereo audio to SCART shim; it doesn't do any conversion, and it won't get you S-Video (because it doesn't have an S-Video connector) or RGB (because the N64 didn't ship with RGB output).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:28 pm 



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DejahThoris wrote:
You could just buy a YPbPr -> RGB converter. Cheaper and less work than buying/selling.


Can you name at least one such converter besides bhb Garo, which apparently isn't very good? I've been looking for one for some time.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:35 pm 


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Selling a rare $1000 monitor and hoping to find another super rare monitor just to avoid buying a $100 YPbPr-to-RGB converter is... not a great idea, in my opinion.

Of course, you need to modify the Beharbros Garo to get a good signal out of it, and the Shinybow has the limitation of needing to select the right resolution on the dial...

You wouldn't need csync for the XM29, since it has separate H and V sync inputs (and a straight-up dsub port), so the garo's invalid csync signal isn't a problem, but the other problem with the garo was that it drove the RGB outputs directly off the TI chip, which the TI chip datasheet specifically and explicitly says not to do, which leads to other non-sync issues (like blooming in dark areas). So the mod would still be required.


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