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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:52 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 238
nmalinoski wrote:
PS1 RGB cables are supposed to have 220uF caps in them, whereas RGB cables for PS2/PS3 are supposed to have no components in them (the caps were moved inside the console). I have successfully used my PS1-specific SCART cable on my PS2 with no apparent issues, so I imagine you're correct.


Does this have everything to do with those PS1/PS2 comparisons that everyone was basing their judging upon? How's it to tell the same capped cables were being on their PS2's at the time?

This bods a real re-do in some areas.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:54 pm 



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makar1 wrote:
ChuChu Flamingo wrote:
Just curious if this would allow me to connect component consoles such as Wii/Gamecube and route them through my gscart. Of course I would need a VGA to Scart Cable if it does what I think it can.


You can already connect component sources to the gscartsw by sending Y > G, Pb > B, Pr > R on the RGB inputs. You would of course still get YPbPr on the output side, which is fine for devices that can switch between colour spaces (PVMs, OSSC).

First, that's only the case with the newest gscartsw model; that's not feasible with any of the older models.

Secondly, even if he did have one of the new gscartsw models that does component forwarding, I think the goal here is to consolidate video formats to simplify video processing on the other end of the gscartsw; to convert YPbPr to RGBS before connecting it to the gscartsw so that you only have to deal with RGBS when it comes to things like scaling and routing, which would also eliminate any need to manually switch between YPbPr and RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:33 pm 


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Is there a list of TVs that support 24K anywhere?

I have a VIVO plasma TV that runs my Sega 24k 496×384 boards just fine but everything else needs a GBS.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:45 pm 


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Syntax wrote:
Is there a list of TVs that support 24K anywhere?

I have a VIVO plasma TV that runs my Sega 24k 496×384 boards just fine but everything else needs a GBS.


I'd love to hear some alternatives for 24k also. Trying to get my Virtua Fighter boards hooked up to something with native support. I was thinking of taking a punt on a "professional" NEC plasma display but haven't quite summoned the courage yet.

How does 24k look on the Vivo, Syntax?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:30 pm 


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Quote:
Trying to get my Virtua Fighter boards hooked up to something with native support. I was thinking of taking a punt on a "professional" NEC plasma display but haven't quite summoned the courage yet.

that's hardly native support, when the image gets rescaled first thing inside. And if you don't intend on using an actual 384 line display (as in 24khz CRT), you can just as well use an OSSC to double to 48khz 768p, which every display on this planet happily accepts. And thinking of 768p, there have been nice 4:3 plasma screens with XGA resolutions.

Quote:
I was thinking of taking a punt on a "professional" NEC plasma display but haven't quite summoned the courage yet.

When I first had the chance to pick up a plasma sync I was really excited. Greatly machined displayed, with lots of inputs, heavy built quality, speakers inside the base, back-lit remote and everything, but unfortunately the quality of the panel wasn't up to it. Way worse than your average Pioneer VGA plasma.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:44 pm 


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Native in the sense that I don't need any external processing. I have my own reasons for trying to avoid a separate box - firstly it looks like shit in the living room and also my DX902B actually doesn't accept 768p from the OSSC. I would presumably need a dsc301 or similar to bump up to 1080p but I don't want to make my family living room look like a garden shed. No dual/Tri sync monitors for me with a little one running around, and no room yet for an Astro City etc. Just looking for a tidy, discrete setup.

Thanks for the tip on the NEC pro displays. Best avoided then.


Last edited by Das Muel on Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:49 pm 


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Syntax wrote:
Is there a list of TVs that support 24K anywhere?

I have a VIVO plasma TV that runs my Sega 24k 496×384 boards just fine but everything else needs a GBS.


I found this in the forum about 24K capable monitors:

If you're talking about LCD, then probably either Dell U2211H or NEC EA231WMI.

I've tested the Dell and the NEC with Gradius 4 (24KHz) - Dell works fine, NEC is kind of picky - need to plug and unplug a few times.
I've tested the Dell with Zero Gunner (24 KHz) - it drops out a lot so I think a sync cleaner is needed.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47638


This guy is making a spreadsheet: https://www.arcade-projects.com/forums/ ... /&pageNo=3

His spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:09 am 


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Anybody know if CRT Emu Driver supports Freesync on compatible cards?

I want to see if I can get freesync working with fixed framerate low-res games on a 15kHz CRT, mainly for reduced lag. I just don't know what drivers to use.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:53 am 


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BazookaBen wrote:
Anybody know if CRT Emu Driver supports Freesync on compatible cards?

I want to see if I can get freesync working with fixed framerate low-res games on a 15kHz CRT, mainly for reduced lag. I just don't know what drivers to use.


So, unless you're talking about something special, freesync only works with monitors that support it. I don't think any CRTs have the monitor-side adaptive tech in them. It works by monkeying with the vertical blanking rate.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:03 am 



Joined: 31 Dec 2018
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I've been trying to hunt down a minor issue on an Ikegami-1517R and I've about given up. I get black streaking to the right of solid white on dark backgrounds. Its extremely noticeable if I crank the contrast/brightness and open the menu (streaks go across the entire screen when cranked). I have a second monitor that is also a 1517R and it has zero streaking when cranked. I've swapped literally every part in the monitor with a known working one. I even double swapped the video processor, RGB board, deflection board, power supply with different ones. If anyone knows of any menu settings that I'm missing to adjust the clamping or anything else I should look at please let me know. At least this is almost never noticeable except when I'm at my desktop to load mame and even then its barely noticeable. I am just curious at this point.

Also: this issue is present with no video signal sent to monitor, and I've tried different power cables and outlets in a different room.


Last edited by hbard on Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:16 am, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:05 am 


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vol.2 wrote:
So, unless you're talking about something special, freesync only works with monitors that support it. I don't think any CRTs have the monitor-side adaptive tech in them. It works by monkeying with the vertical blanking rate.


The idea is to run to an HDMI>VGA or Component adapter, then use Custom Resolution Utility to trick the driver into thinking the monitor is freesync. This part I've done before with a PC CRT, but those go through a "re-sync" process every time you change refresh rate or resolution, which means a black screen whenever you drop below max refresh.

So 15kHz CRT's usually don't do that, which is why 240p>480i transitions are instantaneous. And I'll be playing 60fps-locked games, so as long as the frame times are consistent enough, I think I'll have a stable picture, except with lower lag because I won't be using vsync.

I haven't cobbled together the hardware to try it yet though. I plan on doing this in the next couple weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:01 am 


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nmalinoski wrote:
makar1 wrote:
ChuChu Flamingo wrote:
Just curious if this would allow me to connect component consoles such as Wii/Gamecube and route them through my gscart. Of course I would need a VGA to Scart Cable if it does what I think it can.


You can already connect component sources to the gscartsw by sending Y > G, Pb > B, Pr > R on the RGB inputs. You would of course still get YPbPr on the output side, which is fine for devices that can switch between colour spaces (PVMs, OSSC).

First, that's only the case with the newest gscartsw model; that's not feasible with any of the older models.

Secondly, even if he did have one of the new gscartsw models that does component forwarding, I think the goal here is to consolidate video formats to simplify video processing on the other end of the gscartsw; to convert YPbPr to RGBS before connecting it to the gscartsw so that you only have to deal with RGBS when it comes to things like scaling and routing, which would also eliminate any need to manually switch between YPbPr and RGB.


Mainly it would be for connecting to a XM29 aka something that doesn't take component. Would make routing way easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:38 am 


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BazookaBen wrote:

I haven't cobbled together the hardware to try it yet though. I plan on doing this in the next couple weeks.


neat. be interested to find out your results!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:08 pm 



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Has anyone ever compared the video quality of PSP games from a PSP into the OSSC vs PSP games on the VITA using a playstation TV?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:45 pm 


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When using a PSP through the OSSC you can't get rid of the underscan (272 active lines on a 480p signal). To eliminate the underscan you need a secondary scaler.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:36 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
When using a PSP through the OSSC you can't get rid of the underscan (272 active lines on a 480p signal). To eliminate the underscan you need a secondary scaler.


Do you have any suggestions for this? I have a PSP dev TOOL connected to a 480p plasma and it boxes it in on all 4 sides so the actual game takes up ~1/3 of the total screen.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:04 pm 


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Scaling with so little resolution available is nothing that I would recommend. You will probably end up with a blurry mess no matter what. For 1080p+ screens the Extron DSC 301 does a nice job of transforming any incoming image from an OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:39 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Scaling with so little resolution available is nothing that I would recommend. You will probably end up with a blurry mess no matter what. For 1080p+ screens the Extron DSC 301 does a nice job of transforming any incoming image from an OSSC.


How unfortunate. Guess I'll need to use it with the big TV. Thanks though.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:54 pm 


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Did anybody ever get an HDFury Vertex? Looks like there isn't any reason to choose it over the Linker.

I see their rep is busy peddling misinformation and dodging questions about chroma subsampling over at the avforums.

One member over there was particularly persistent, but didn't ever get a straight answer.

HDFury started out saying chroma subsampling is "proprietary information" (that's bullshit) and finally got around to saying it's *almost 4:4:4* (also bullshit).

It's either uncompressed or it isn't. There's no grey area.

Anyhow, does anybody have one they can throw a test pattern at?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:28 pm 


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I don't even understand why they're dodging that question. For 99% of their audience it really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you're just running movies through it and it doesn't matter if you're recording the output with a 4:2:0 codec. I don't see it hurting their sales if just outright said, that the source is downsampled for processing and upsampled again (if the output is set to 4:4:4).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:43 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Did anybody ever get an HDFury Vertex?

I have one...

Quote:
Anyhow, does anybody have one they can throw a test pattern at?

I'm a bit surprised that people insist that it does not pass through 4:4:4 - I have previously used it to modify the EDID of my Dell monitor because MacOS decided that it would really like to feed it 4:4:4 YCbCr and the monitor processes that internally as 4:2:2. I hated the blurry color syntax highlighting caused by that and since there does not appear to be any way to fix that on the Mac side (without disabling System Integrity Protection), I used the Vertex to inject an RGB-only EDID, which gave me non-blurry colored text. To me that seems to indicate that at least for RGB at 1920x1200 the Vertex does not do anything that results in reduced chroma resolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:19 pm 


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Unseen wrote:
I used the Vertex to inject an RGB-only EDID, which gave me non-blurry colored text. To me that seems to indicate that at least for RGB at 1920x1200 the Vertex does not do anything that results in reduced chroma resolution.


Using the Linker, I get better results forcing RGB color space--although I don't think it's full chroma.

Of course, that makes little difference if someone is upscaling retro console video as 1080p output from a DVDO, because there's plenty of color resolution and the DVDO is already 4:2:2.

The new mCable is shaping up to be better for 3d stuff, so I have a feeling the Linker chained with another video processor will still be my favorite plug and play low lag 4k scaling solution. Also, the Linker doesn't add ringing or soften the output.

None of this will matter much to most people soon, anyhow. The Extron HD-HD 4k has it all with a frame of lag. So, the HDFury 4k scalers are probably only for people that can't let go of their DVDO and own a display that can't scale 1080p properly.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:40 pm 



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Any reason to expect HD-HD 4Ks becoming cheaper soon? The non-4K HD-HD works phenomenally, I have really high expectations for the 4k, if only I could afford one.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:26 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Any reason to expect HD-HD 4Ks becoming cheaper soon? The non-4K HD-HD works phenomenally, I have really high expectations for the 4k, if only I could afford one.


Probably not.

It's already priced in an affordable range for their target market and it handles the current standard (4k@60Hz 4:4:4 with optional frame lock/frame rate conversion).

Probably won't hit the used market in significant numbers (or reasonable prices) until there's a compelling reason to upgrade.

Mind you, the HD-HD 4k isn't the only good 4k video scaler. There are more ambitious units out there from other manufacturers that will also eventually hit the market. Maybe one of those will also offer really good deinterlacing, because Extron doesn't have it. Regardless, almost all the really interesting new units have uncompressed color.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:49 pm 



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I'm looking to feed 480p from my Dreamcast to my Samsung plasma display, and I'm curious what my best option is. I'm using a SCART cable from retro access and I have both a Framemeister and Shinybow SCART to component transcoder. My plasma has analog component inputs, so I'm wondering if it's better to go SCART>Shinybow>component in(analog) or SCART>Framemeister>HDMI in(digital)? Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:52 pm 


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GojiFan90 wrote:
I'm looking to feed 480p from my Dreamcast to my Samsung plasma display, and I'm curious what my best option is. I'm using a SCART cable from retro access and I have both a Framemeister and Shinybow SCART to component transcoder. My plasma has analog component inputs, so I'm wondering if it's better to go SCART>Shinybow>component in(analog) or SCART>Framemeister>HDMI in(digital)? Thanks in advance.


My Samsung plasma does a great job of upscaling 480p. And it's component input is well-tuned

The Framemeister doesn't do a super job upscaling 480p material.


Assuming your TV does a good 480p upscale aswell, I'd definitely go through the Shinybow and plugged into the TV's component input.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:00 pm 



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FinalBaton wrote:
My Samsung plasma does a great job of upscaling 480p. And it's component input is well-tuned.

The Framemeister doesn't do a super job upscaling 480p material.


Assuming your TV does a good 480p upscale aswell, I'd definitely go through the Shinybow and plugged into the TV's component input.


Thanks! I originally purchased the Shinybow for use with a CRT and it hasn't been used much aside from that, so it's nice to give it a new purpose. I've never been a fan of the Framemeister's handling of 480p so I think keeping everything analog will be beneficial in this instance. I can't wait for Insurrection's GameCube component cables so I can finally get rid of my GCHD and just feed a pure analog 480p signal into my plasma (or my HD CRT).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:55 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
GojiFan90 wrote:
I'm looking to feed 480p from my Dreamcast to my Samsung plasma display, and I'm curious what my best option is. I'm using a SCART cable from retro access and I have both a Framemeister and Shinybow SCART to component transcoder. My plasma has analog component inputs, so I'm wondering if it's better to go SCART>Shinybow>component in(analog) or SCART>Framemeister>HDMI in(digital)? Thanks in advance.


My Samsung plasma does a great job of upscaling 480p. And it's component input is well-tuned

The Framemeister doesn't do a super job upscaling 480p material.


Assuming your TV does a good 480p upscale aswell, I'd definitely go through the Shinybow and plugged into the TV's component input.


That's curious. I adore my Samsung plasma but its scaling is disgustingly soft. And the analog front end is similarly unimpressive.

IMO the best answer to the question posed is the OSSC, barring that I'd imagine the XRGB mini would still produce better results than going in through the TVs analog inputs if its anything like mine


Last edited by maxtherabbit on Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:59 am 


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Wow. Importing custom output timings on 301 HD is a real pain in arse! Making .bin files to import EDIDs isn't user friendly.

No luck with proper 240p downscaling. I don't have the time or energy to create dozens of EDID's to find the pixel clock floor, but it definitely isn't able to go low enough for 720x240.


Super resolution 240p (1920x240) shows more promise, but I didn't bother trying to get that right. I guess that's still possible.

Anyhow, I wouldn't bother adding a DAC to the 301 HD on your pro video CRT monitor or consumer CRT.

Upscaling only.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:55 am 


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orange808 wrote:
I don't have the time or energy to create dozens of EDID's to find the pixel clock floor, but it definitely isn't able to go low enough for 720x240.

I would guess 25MHz (on the wire) because that is the minimum TMDS clock for DVI and HDMI. Even if the scaler can go lower, the receiver would need to support it too.

Quote:
Super resolution 240p (1920x240) shows more promise, but I didn't bother trying to get that right. I guess that's still possible.

The correct way to fix it would be to use pixel replication and flagging it as such in the HDMI metadata. The relevant CEA standard specifies pixel doubling for 720x240p/480i/288p/576i for an effective horizontal resolution of 1440 pixels, but it also defines a few special modes with 2880 horizontal pixels and up to 10x pixel replication to support pixel-exact output of content from low-resolution game systems.


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