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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:30 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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Harrumph wrote:
Tigershark wrote:
I've read a few reviews now but can't seem to find the answer to the following question: will the OSSC reduce lag?

I can see reference to there being no or little lag but what is not clear is whether the effect of the OSSC is to reduce the lag experienced when connecting an old console directly to a HD TV without the OSSC. For example all shmups on the PS2 are completely unplayable when connecting it directly to my HD TV via component cables (even in Game Mode). If I do so through the OSSC will that lag be reduced?

Thanks in advance.

OSSC will reduce the lag in so far as to send a progressive image (at default 480p) to the display with absolutely minimal lag (microsecond timescale).
The reason this cuts down display lag is that displays often have excessive processing time with interlaced images, i.e. 480i (or 240p incorrectly processed as 480i, which is super common).

This does NOT mean that it guarantees low lag, because even in game mode and reducing picture processing as much as possible, some displays just have very high lag. I remember Try from MLiG stating that his old Samsung had 5 frames of innate lag...

In addition to this, if your TV is particularly bad/laggy with scaling <=480p, but it can handle the OSSC's output, using the OSSC to scale 240p/480i/480p closer to 1080p can result in less work for the display (sometimes triggering a different, more efficient scaling routine altogether), and thus less display lag.

Of course, that depends on a bunch of ifs. Really, the point of the OSSC is to digitize analog audio and video signals for use on modern displays, many of which now lack legacy inputs and can't handle 240p/480i/interlacing-in-general over HDMI.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:46 pm 


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Thanks.

A lot of "ifs" for just under a £200 layout. I suspect I will end up getting one however as I like the idea of running my DC, SS and PS2 through one display.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:18 pm 


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Not many ifs as I see it. Maybe should clarify, it will certainly reduce the lag compared to plugging those consoles directly to the TV (probably 2-3 frames). But if you are very sensitive to lag, sure you may still pick up on it if your display is exceptionally bad in that department. However I’ve never heard anyone report that.

Also, nmalinoski, never saw any concrete evidence that 480p upscaling takes noticeably longer to process than a higher input resolution.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:33 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 67
Speaking of input lag and scaling on modern TVs...

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:47 pm 



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I am slowly trying to design a BNC rack mount setup for all my retro A/V needs between retro PCs, consoles, PVMs/BVMs, and modern displays. I'm intentionally trying to avoid SCART. I'm picking up bits as I find them from e-cyclers and have been learning as I go. While a lot of the items I have already fit nicely on a rack (Like my crosspoint, and extron has a lot of half rack equipment), one of the problems I'm running into is upscalers.

It is my understanding a lot of recommendations like the framemeister are not really a standard size. While I know I could just get a shelf and set a few items on it, it would please me more to find a similarly performant solution that was actually designed for a rack with BNC.

I've seen the IN1508, but I haven't found too many comments on it. What I have seems to imply its not as performant as a framemeister, but I don't have a sense of scale.

Does anyone have any suggestions or feedback?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:07 pm 


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Dal wrote:
I am slowly trying to design a BNC rack mount setup for all my retro A/V needs between retro PCs, consoles, PVMs/BVMs, and modern displays. I'm intentionally trying to avoid SCART. I'm picking up bits as I find them from e-cyclers and have been learning as I go. While a lot of the items I have already fit nicely on a rack (Like my crosspoint, and extron has a lot of half rack equipment), one of the problems I'm running into is upscalers.

It is my understanding a lot of recommendations like the framemeister are not really a standard size. While I know I could just get a shelf and set a few items on it, it would please me more to find a similarly performant solution that was actually designed for a rack with BNC.

I've seen the IN1508, but I haven't found too many comments on it. What I have seems to imply its not as performant as a framemeister, but I don't have a sense of scale.

Does anyone have any suggestions or feedback?


Take a look at the Extron RGB-HDMI 300?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:28 pm 



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Do you have any experience with the RGB-HDMI 300? (Not being critical, curious)

While I understand I may need to do some guess and check on my own, a part of me is hoping someone has some insight into what works for them and it might save me time and money. I want to believe it’s good because it’s Extron, however I also don’t really see people talking about them for upscaling games and I’m not sure why. I did find one post on the DVS 304 and it claims 240 is handled as 480. I don't know if that is a common problem with their products though.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:01 am 


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Dal wrote:
I did find one post on the DVS 304 and it claims 240 is handled as 480. I don't know if that is a common problem with their products though.


Proper 240p handling is rare.

I had an RGB-HDMI 300 and sold it. It was just fine, but I didn't see many unique features to justify all the latency. Extron makes good gear, but they have never catered to gamers.

What you really want is a display that handles the OSSC output directly. Ideally, you don't want to add another machine in between the OSSC and your display.

In most cases, the best additional processor to pair with the OSSC is a DVDO vp50pro or a vp50. That's the combination many of us use. There are some ringing and chroma subsampling trade offs, but they aren't deal breakers.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:42 am 



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Dal wrote:
I've seen the IN1508, but I haven't found too many comments on it. What I have seems to imply its not as performant as a framemeister, but I don't have a sense of scale.

Avoid. While it is nice for what it is, a presentation scaler, it's ill-suited for retro gaming as it doesn't understand 240p. You would have to prescale with a different device that did understand 240p, like an OSSC. It's also ill-suited as an RGB decoder in a video gaming context, as the scaler cannot be disabled; with the varying framerates of retro consoles, I expect it'll be doing full-time framerate conversion. I also cannot speak to the quality of its scaler, because the other drawbacks put me off using it in my setup, and it has been in storage since.

That said, it'll probably be good for anything that does 480i and up, like the Xbox, maybe 3DO, and a chunk (but not all) of PS2 and GameCube content; and, being a presentation scaler intended to continually output at a specific resolution and framerate, it can survive mode changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:35 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 67
Just how many 240p games are there on the Gamecube and OG Xbox? GC has like two total (Zelda and Mega Man X collections?), but I have no idea on OG Xbox.

On the display side, anybody try a 2018+ LG OLED with black frame insertion enabled combined with an OSSC running the new scanline options in the 0.81 firmware?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:42 am 


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energizerfellow‌ wrote:
On the display side, anybody try a 2018+ LG OLED with black frame insertion enabled combined with an OSSC running the new scanline options in the 0.81 firmware?


Would love to see it. I'd have to imagine brightness takes a huge hit with that combo though.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:53 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 67
bobrocks95 wrote:
Would love to see it. I'd have to imagine brightness takes a huge hit with that combo though.

Looking like the latest LG OLED panels will do it. They'll do a bit over 400 cd/m² continuously with a SDR signal on anything less than than pure sustained 100% white test pattern (brightness dropoff here due to power/heat), which should be enough for the color calibration standard of 120 cd/m² with double brightness needed for black frame insertion, then add another 30-50% for scanlines. A usable brightness of 150 cd/m² should be doable.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:35 pm 



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energizerfellow‌ wrote:
Just how many 240p games are there on the Gamecube and OG Xbox? GC has like two total (Zelda and Mega Man X collections?), but I have no idea on OG Xbox.

So far, the best information I've found about what GameCube games support 240p is this forced-progressive compatibility list for Swiss, which notes these games as supporting 240p natively:
  • Mega Man X Collection [NTSC-U]
  • Peach's Castle [NTSC-U]
  • Metal Gear Special Disc [NTSC-J]
As far as the Legend of Zelda collection, Thomago said a few years back that LoZ 1 and 2 run at 240p, so not the whole collection.

As far as the Xbox is concerned, my understanding is that it's incapable of 240p output.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:57 pm 


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Dal wrote:
Do you have any experience with the RGB-HDMI 300? (Not being critical, curious)

While I understand I may need to do some guess and check on my own, a part of me is hoping someone has some insight into what works for them and it might save me time and money. I want to believe it’s good because it’s Extron, however I also don’t really see people talking about them for upscaling games and I’m not sure why. I did find one post on the DVS 304 and it claims 240 is handled as 480. I don't know if that is a common problem with their products though.

I'm using it on a consolised PC for DOS gaming on a HDTV, it works well for that but I have no experience with its abilities on 15kHz sources


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 Post subject: GPU
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:27 pm 


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Hi there, I have a weird question:

I got a projector for the first time, and I am exploring options to play DVDs. I want good quality scaling, but not sure if my PC is sufficient for that.
Do you think I should buy something like a framemeister, or can I play stuff with VLC or Kodi and expect high quality scaling over HDMI?

Opinions? Facts?


Thanks


Last edited by vol.2 on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GPU
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:29 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
Hi there, I have a weird question:

I got a projector for the first time, and I am exploring options to play DVDs. I want good quality scaling, but not sure if my PC is sufficient for that.
Do you think I should buy something like a framemeister, or can I play stuff with VLC or Kodi and expect high quality scaling over HDMI?

Opinions? Facts?


Thanks,

Brian


http://madvr.com/
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:50 pm 


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thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:14 pm 


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k. one more.

i'm seriously considering buying a framemeister anyways for my systems to the new projector.

ive read all of fudohs stuff on his website. seems like it's good for most stuff with the possible exception of 480p, and also that it's best output at 720p.

that being said, i'm not sure what my projector is doing with a 720p input. is it going to try and scale it up to 1080p and introduce noise and artifacts, or does it just project a 720p image?

it's a somewhat recent ViewSonic deal if that helps

for frame of reference, im using Nintendo stuff up thru wii, PS1&2, Dreamcast and Saturn. that's p much all i would need it for.

so, i guess i'm really looking for:

1) if i only want 1, framemeister or ossc (or something else)?
2) how would the projector factor into that decision?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:22 pm 


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The question is how the projector can handle the OSSC. If it works well with it, then you're better off with an OSSC (except for 480i, but you can get another processor fro that at a later point), but if the projector doesn't play well with the OSSC, then the FM is much easier to work with.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:43 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
The question is how the projector can handle the OSSC. If it works well with it, then you're better off with an OSSC (except for 480i, but you can get another processor fro that at a later point), but if the projector doesn't play well with the OSSC, then the FM is much easier to work with.


thanks for the response.

ooook. so the billion dollar question is, can i figure that out without buying an ossc first?

viewsonic pjd7828hdl is my projector if anyone has any knowledge about this line or products and ossc?

or if there is some other way...


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:46 am 



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I understand the csync NTSC Saturn cables must not be used with PAL systems because of the different pinout. So for connecting a PAL Saturn to the OSSC, is the default SCART cable bundled with the console good enough or is there a need for a sync on luma version or something?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:32 am 


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vol.2 wrote:

ooook. so the billion dollar question is, can i figure that out without buying an ossc first?



You likely can't know in advance (unless you find a user who has the exact same projector and consoles), BUT you can test the OSSC out at the cost of return postage. From the VGP sales page:
"In addition to the standard 1 year EU warranty, we’re also giving a one-month no quibble return for all units. Test the OSSC in your setup and if it doesn’t work, return it to us for a full refund. All we ask is that you pay return postage and send the complete unit and any accessories undamaged."
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:33 pm 


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Harrumph wrote:
vol.2 wrote:

ooook. so the billion dollar question is, can i figure that out without buying an ossc first?



You likely can't know in advance (unless you find a user who has the exact same projector and consoles), BUT you can test the OSSC out at the cost of return postage. From the VGP sales page:
"In addition to the standard 1 year EU warranty, we’re also giving a one-month no quibble return for all units. Test the OSSC in your setup and if it doesn’t work, return it to us for a full refund. All we ask is that you pay return postage and send the complete unit and any accessories undamaged."



Ok then, I put out a call in the Projector gaming thread. I'll wait for a bit and if i don't get any better info, ill just order the thing and try it.

Would it be a deal-breaker if line-tripling didn't work? (i read that someone had issues with specifically that function and their projector)

thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:19 pm 



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I was reading that the DVDO VP50 and other models are sometimes paired with an OSSC, what kind of benefits does that have?

Also, the VP50 isn't great with 240p I've heard. But is that when connecting directly to the unit? As you would be sending 480p or higher into it coming from the OSSC correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:24 pm 



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RottenToTheGore wrote:
I was reading that the DVDO VP50 and other models are sometimes paired with an OSSC, what kind of benefits does that have?

Also, the VP50 isn't great with 240p I've heard. But is that when connecting directly to the unit? As you would be sending 480p or higher into it coming from the OSSC correct?

I believe most people pairing these two devices are scaling inputs as high as they can on the OSSC side (480i/p to 960i/p, for example) and using the VP50 to scale that last bit to 1920x1080. They might be using the VP50 for better deinterlacing as well; and, those with PSPs are probably using it to zoom.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:18 am 


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i want to utilize the horizontal center knob on my pvm 2030. in order to do this, i have to feed it a ttl signal; it does not function with an analog rgb input.

can i feed my pvm 2030 a 15khz rgb signal via the ttl inputs on the db25 connector and still get a usable picture?

https://www.manualowl.com/m/Sony/PVM-20 ... =17#manual


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:05 pm 



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I have a Qanba Q4RAF and plan to add a DB15 so that I can use it with my HAS supergun.

My question is: should I wire 5V between the DB15 connector and the Qanba’s PCB? In my head I’m thinking it isn’t necessary as the HAS is reading pure signals.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:14 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
i want to utilize the horizontal center knob on my pvm 2030. in order to do this, i have to feed it a ttl signal; it does not function with an analog rgb input.

can i feed my pvm 2030 a 15khz rgb signal via the ttl inputs on the db25 connector and still get a usable picture?

https://www.manualowl.com/m/Sony/PVM-20 ... =17#manual

Interesting... I have a Sony with the 34-pin connector and on mine the horizontal center knob works when plugged through it :| don't know how differently those buttons are wired on the 2 sets.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:42 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
i want to utilize the horizontal center knob on my pvm 2030. in order to do this, i have to feed it a ttl signal; it does not function with an analog rgb input.

can i feed my pvm 2030 a 15khz rgb signal via the ttl inputs on the db25 connector and still get a usable picture?

https://www.manualowl.com/m/Sony/PVM-20 ... =17#manual

Interesting... I have a Sony with the 34-pin connector and on mine the horizontal center knob works when plugged through it :| don't know how differently those buttons are wired on the 2 sets.



the h canter knob on the PVM 2030 has "digital RGB" printed underneath, and sure enough, it doesn't function with an analog signal on any input. (at least on mine)

for one thing, the analog rgb mode (set at pin 9) switches the input to C sync (or sync on green with a switch) and the low state switches it to H and V sync on different pins. the V only pin is TTL level only so it says

in order to try it, ill have to make an appropriate db15 to. db25 cable. i guess ill try that, and ill play with the peak control on my extron

hmm, are there any commercially available db15 to db25 cables that will just do it for this? prob not. sigh


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:41 pm 



Joined: 10 Jul 2010
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Using my CDX through the OSSC I noticed a lot of video...noise? Not sure of the term I'm looking for but kinda fuzzy, rolling up the screen, most noticeable on solid backgrounds. Confirmed the cable isn't an issue (Hooked a Genny 2 up with the same cable and didn't have the issue).

Any idea what could be causing this? I'm using an official PSU for the CDX as well.


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