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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:58 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 744
ldeveraux wrote:
Why would the TV struggle with the SCART signal from the OSSC, but not the composite signal from the composite cable?

Because different inputs on a given TV are not always (if ever) processed using the same circuitry; the HDMI input is likely one processing pipeline that is not tolerant of off-spec refresh rates or non-EDTV/HDTV video modes, and the composite input is likely a separate processing pipeline, using different chips, that is more tolerant to an off-spec refresh rate.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:20 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 83
nmalinoski wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
Why would the TV struggle with the SCART signal from the OSSC, but not the composite signal from the composite cable?

Because different inputs on a given TV are not always (if ever) processed using the same circuitry; the HDMI input is likely one processing pipeline that is not tolerant of off-spec refresh rates or non-EDTV/HDTV video modes, and the composite input is likely a separate processing pipeline, using different chips, that is more tolerant to an off-spec refresh rate.


But both output methods from the GC enter the same input on the TV. The composite goes through a switch to an HDMI converter to the receiver to the HDMI on the TV. The PAL SCART cable goes to a switch to OSSC to the receiver to the TV HDMI. And once converted to HDMI, both go through another switch, so they share the receiver to TV line.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:39 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 744
ldeveraux wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
Why would the TV struggle with the SCART signal from the OSSC, but not the composite signal from the composite cable?

Because different inputs on a given TV are not always (if ever) processed using the same circuitry; the HDMI input is likely one processing pipeline that is not tolerant of off-spec refresh rates or non-EDTV/HDTV video modes, and the composite input is likely a separate processing pipeline, using different chips, that is more tolerant to an off-spec refresh rate.


But both output methods from the GC enter the same input on the TV. The composite goes through a switch to an HDMI converter to the receiver to the HDMI on the TV. The PAL SCART cable goes to a switch to OSSC to the receiver to the TV HDMI. And once converted to HDMI, both go through another switch, so they share the receiver to TV line.

In that case, the composite->HDMI converter is probably performing framerate conversion to normalize the video for HDMI. The OSSC doesn't do anything like that, so it's possible that the non-normalized feed from the OSSC is off-spec just enough for your TV's HDMI processing pipeline to not like it.

One thing you might want to try is hooking composite up to Y/G on AV2 on the OSSC, and setting the input to AV2-YPbPr. If you see the same behavior as with SCART through the OSSC, then I would think your TV simply doesn't tolerate the scaled output from the OSSC; however, if you do get an image (it'll lack color), then there might be something wonky with your OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:19 pm 


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ldeveraux, you're in the US, right ?

Wouldn't the most obvious explanation be that your TV just doesn't work with PAL 50Hz signals ?

Your composite converter probably outputs 60Hz anyway, so that works, but the OSSC will output 50Hz from a 576i source. If your Cube runs NTSC games as well, you can try to boot a NTSC one. This would output in 480i60 instead (and thus in 60Hz from the OSSC).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:54 am 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 83
Fudoh wrote:
ldeveraux, you're in the US, right ?

Wouldn't the most obvious explanation be that your TV just doesn't work with PAL 50Hz signals ?

Your composite converter probably outputs 60Hz anyway, so that works, but the OSSC will output 50Hz from a 576i source. If your Cube runs NTSC games as well, you can try to boot a NTSC one. This would output in 480i60 instead (and thus in 60Hz from the OSSC).


nmalinoski wrote:
One thing you might want to try is hooking composite up to Y/G on AV2 on the OSSC, and setting the input to AV2-YPbPr. If you see the same behavior as with SCART through the OSSC, then I would think your TV simply doesn't tolerate the scaled output from the OSSC; however, if you do get an image (it'll lack color), then there might be something wonky with your OSSC.


Yes, in the US but with a PAL GC. I doubt it matters, but while I've a PAL GC, I inserted the XenoGC modded DVD drive from my US NTSC console into the PAL. I can confirm that the composite>HDMI converter from Amazon outputs at 60Hz, explains why composite out for PAL games has video. Every attempt to get 60Hz video from other means has failed. I bought the PAL GC for my SCART switched setup and thought I'd be fine with PAL games. The only real bummer is I can't see the GC system menu or boot screen over SCART. I foolishly assumed that between the XenoGC chip and the OSSC, at least one of those would convert to 60Hz for output. I really thought that was one of the selling points of the XenoGC back when I first bought it! Without a trivial solution, I guess I'll just live with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:48 am 


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ldeveraux wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
ldeveraux, you're in the US, right ?

Wouldn't the most obvious explanation be that your TV just doesn't work with PAL 50Hz signals ?

Your composite converter probably outputs 60Hz anyway, so that works, but the OSSC will output 50Hz from a 576i source. If your Cube runs NTSC games as well, you can try to boot a NTSC one. This would output in 480i60 instead (and thus in 60Hz from the OSSC).


nmalinoski wrote:
One thing you might want to try is hooking composite up to Y/G on AV2 on the OSSC, and setting the input to AV2-YPbPr. If you see the same behavior as with SCART through the OSSC, then I would think your TV simply doesn't tolerate the scaled output from the OSSC; however, if you do get an image (it'll lack color), then there might be something wonky with your OSSC.


Yes, in the US but with a PAL GC. I doubt it matters, but while I've a PAL GC, I inserted the XenoGC modded DVD drive from my US NTSC console into the PAL. I can confirm that the composite>HDMI converter from Amazon outputs at 60Hz, explains why composite out for PAL games has video. Every attempt to get 60Hz video from other means has failed. I bought the PAL GC for my SCART switched setup and thought I'd be fine with PAL games. The only real bummer is I can't see the GC system menu or boot screen over SCART. I foolishly assumed that between the XenoGC chip and the OSSC, at least one of those would convert to 60Hz for output. I really thought that was one of the selling points of the XenoGC back when I first bought it! Without a trivial solution, I guess I'll just live with it.


What happens if you plug the composite cable directly into the TV?

XenoGC is a basic chip, and needs homebrew to do stuff other chips may have built-in (forcing 480p, SD loading, etc)
Try holding the X or Y button while starting a game. It's supposed to tell the XenoGC to try and switch NTSC/PAL.

Getting PAL50 from a Gamecube is difficult enough in the US already.
The NTSC motherboard incorrectly encodes PAL color. (a component cable will fix this part, but then the TV still has to support 50hz)


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:00 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 83
theclaw wrote:
What happens if you plug the composite cable directly into the TV?

XenoGC is a basic chip, and needs homebrew to do stuff other chips may have built-in (forcing 480p, SD loading, etc)
Try holding the X or Y button while starting a game. It's supposed to tell the XenoGC to try and switch NTSC/PAL.

Getting PAL50 from a Gamecube is difficult enough in the US already.
The NTSC motherboard incorrectly encodes PAL color. (a component cable will fix this part, but then the TV still has to support 50hz)


I assume that plugging composite directly to TV would not display, but I'm not home and can't check. I wonder if something like this adapter would solve my problem? It seems to auto scan and could convert PAL HDMI from the OSSC to NTSC to the receiver. But if it introduces lag or needs a button press to activate, it's not worth it for me.
www.amazon.com/Orei-XD-1090-Premium-Con ... B00A7B0YZI


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:03 pm 


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Location: Germany
You can't famerate convert video game content. The results is unplayable due to the stutter.

I don't fully understand what your problem is. I assume you don't want to play PAL gamecube games ? NTSC games running on your system will run in 60Hz and if you use something like GBI, that will output in 60Hz as well. Yes, can can't see the boot sequence or menu on your cube, but if you have to you can use your composite converter for a moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:21 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 83
Fudoh wrote:
You can't famerate convert video game content. The results is unplayable due to the stutter.

I don't fully understand what your problem is. I assume you don't want to play PAL gamecube games ? NTSC games running on your system will run in 60Hz and if you use something like GBI, that will output in 60Hz as well. Yes, can can't see the boot sequence or menu on your cube, but if you have to you can use your composite converter for a moment.


I would like to play PAL games and see the system menu while using SCART. I didn't realize that was not possible when I bought the PAL GC. Broadly, I'd like to view PAL content on my largely NTSC setup. If I can't, I can't !


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:33 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 744
ldeveraux wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
You can't famerate convert video game content. The results is unplayable due to the stutter.

I don't fully understand what your problem is. I assume you don't want to play PAL gamecube games ? NTSC games running on your system will run in 60Hz and if you use something like GBI, that will output in 60Hz as well. Yes, can can't see the boot sequence or menu on your cube, but if you have to you can use your composite converter for a moment.


I would like to play PAL games and see the system menu while using SCART. I didn't realize that was not possible when I bought the PAL GC. Broadly, I'd like to view PAL content on my largely NTSC setup. If I can't, I can't !

I'm curious... What make/model TV do you have? Is it a 1080p panel, or a 4K one?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:02 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 83
nmalinoski wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
You can't famerate convert video game content. The results is unplayable due to the stutter.

I don't fully understand what your problem is. I assume you don't want to play PAL gamecube games ? NTSC games running on your system will run in 60Hz and if you use something like GBI, that will output in 60Hz as well. Yes, can can't see the boot sequence or menu on your cube, but if you have to you can use your composite converter for a moment.


I would like to play PAL games and see the system menu while using SCART. I didn't realize that was not possible when I bought the PAL GC. Broadly, I'd like to view PAL content on my largely NTSC setup. If I can't, I can't !

I'm curious... What make/model TV do you have? Is it a 1080p panel, or a 4K one?


It's definitely 1080p, pretty sure a Samsung PN50C7000. Even has 3D!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:11 pm 


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Location: Germany
Quote:
I would like to play PAL games

IC, got you! Most US users getting a PAL cube w/ scart these days usually only aim for 240p RGBs output for GBI.

But believe me, there's really no point in converting. If your TV can't display 50Hz signals, then forget about it (or use another display). Converting other kinds of PAL material (like TV/movies) is not as tragic. You end up with something that looks like your usually NTSC telecine pulldown (you know 24p movies with 60Hz signals), but for video games that's an absolute no-go.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:05 pm 


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Posts: 216
Fudoh wrote:
You can't famerate convert video game content. The results is unplayable due to the stutter.

I don't fully understand what your problem is. I assume you don't want to play PAL gamecube games ? NTSC games running on your system will run in 60Hz and if you use something like GBI, that will output in 60Hz as well. Yes, can can't see the boot sequence or menu on your cube, but if you have to you can use your composite converter for a moment.

GBI outputs 50Hz and does so smoothly.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:21 pm 


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Location: Germany
By slowing down the native near-NTSC refresh rate to PAL rates ? Not exactly desirable, isn't it ?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:25 pm 


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No, it uses frame rate conversion (blending).

That's why Game Boy Interface exists in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:29 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 83
Fudoh wrote:
IC, got you! Most US users getting a PAL cube w/ scart these days usually only aim for 240p RGBs output for GBI.

But believe me, there's really no point in converting. If your TV can't display 50Hz signals, then forget about it (or use another display). Converting other kinds of PAL material (like TV/movies) is not as tragic. You end up with something that looks like your usually NTSC telecine pulldown (you know 24p movies with 60Hz signals), but for video games that's an absolute no-go.


I think I'll forget about it then! I bought a PAL game to test because I thought the Xeno converted to region free video, or at least to 60Hz. Not the case, I found out. Not a problem as I'm in the US, all my games are NTSC US.

Extrems wrote:
No, it uses frame rate conversion (blending).

That's why Game Boy Interface exists in the first place.


I've not researched GBI, but I do have a Gameboy Player installed. That should output 240p via SCART in 60Hz?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:46 pm 


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ldeveraux wrote:
I've not researched GBI, but I do have a Gameboy Player installed. That should output 240p via SCART in 60Hz?

The standard edition, which has frame rate conversion, will output 486i59.94 or 576i50 by default. User options include 243p59.7276 and 360p60.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:14 pm 



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 100
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Have people been receiving their Retrotink 2X from Castlemania Games? I ordered in July. All signs indicate that it should have shipped. I have contacted them three times in three weeks and heard nothing back.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:30 pm 



Joined: 11 Nov 2013
Posts: 126
Galgomite wrote:
Have people been receiving their Retrotink 2X from Castlemania Games? I ordered in July. All signs indicate that it should have shipped. I have contacted them three times in three weeks and heard nothing back.


Mike Chi has been really diligent in updating folks who ordered directly from him on the ordeal it's been getting these out to customers. They've been shipped from China and look like will be delivered to him next week. Not sure how much work needs to be done between receipt and him shipping them out.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:52 am 



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 100
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
SavagePencil wrote:
Galgomite wrote:
Have people been receiving their Retrotink 2X from Castlemania Games? I ordered in July. All signs indicate that it should have shipped. I have contacted them three times in three weeks and heard nothing back.


Mike Chi has been really diligent in updating folks who ordered directly from him on the ordeal it's been getting these out to customers. They've been shipped from China and look like will be delivered to him next week. Not sure how much work needs to be done between receipt and him shipping them out.


Thanks for the response. That would have been sufficient from Castlemania. I get that these hobbyist things don’t happen exactly when they’re supposed to (Analogue machines, scart switches, OSSC, every single kickstarter) but hearing nothing from a seller is frustrating.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:51 am 


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Posts: 203
ldeveraux wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
IC, got you! Most US users getting a PAL cube w/ scart these days usually only aim for 240p RGBs output for GBI.

But believe me, there's really no point in converting. If your TV can't display 50Hz signals, then forget about it (or use another display). Converting other kinds of PAL material (like TV/movies) is not as tragic. You end up with something that looks like your usually NTSC telecine pulldown (you know 24p movies with 60Hz signals), but for video games that's an absolute no-go.


I think I'll forget about it then! I bought a PAL game to test because I thought the Xeno converted to region free video, or at least to 60Hz. Not the case, I found out. Not a problem as I'm in the US, all my games are NTSC US.

Extrems wrote:
No, it uses frame rate conversion (blending).

That's why Game Boy Interface exists in the first place.


I've not researched GBI, but I do have a Gameboy Player installed. That should output 240p via SCART in 60Hz?


I'm not sure what you were expecting, Xeno is installed onto the optical drive. It can only do things that are possible from there.

There's a multitude of ways to force games to 60hz. Patches, Action Replay codes, homebrew...
Of course the 50hz system menu is built into the console.

While higher end upscalers (XRGB?) have more options to try and make 50hz to 60hz conversion tolerable, it's going to be better to focus on getting actual 60hz from the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:04 am 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 83
theclaw wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
IC, got you! Most US users getting a PAL cube w/ scart these days usually only aim for 240p RGBs output for GBI.

But believe me, there's really no point in converting. If your TV can't display 50Hz signals, then forget about it (or use another display). Converting other kinds of PAL material (like TV/movies) is not as tragic. You end up with something that looks like your usually NTSC telecine pulldown (you know 24p movies with 60Hz signals), but for video games that's an absolute no-go.


I think I'll forget about it then! I bought a PAL game to test because I thought the Xeno converted to region free video, or at least to 60Hz. Not the case, I found out. Not a problem as I'm in the US, all my games are NTSC US.

Extrems wrote:
No, it uses frame rate conversion (blending).

That's why Game Boy Interface exists in the first place.


I've not researched GBI, but I do have a Gameboy Player installed. That should output 240p via SCART in 60Hz?


I'm not sure what you were expecting, Xeno is installed onto the optical drive. It can only do things that are possible from there.

There's a multitude of ways to force games to 60hz. Patches, Action Replay codes, homebrew...
Of course the 50hz system menu is built into the console.

While higher end upscalers (XRGB?) have more options to try and make 50hz to 60hz conversion tolerable, it's going to be better to focus on getting actual 60hz from the game.


I think I've resigned myself to the fact that if I want RGB via SCART, I'll have to do without the system menu. As was said before, if I need it, I can always switch to the composite input temporarily. Thanks all!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:08 pm 


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Can someone recommend an excellent older DVD player (with component jacks)? It doesn't need to have great upscaling or deinterlacing(if at all), although it's a bonus. Just need for it to output a super solid 480i picture. It's for use on a standard def CRT, to watch 4:3 anime and movies

I've been looking for a cheap Oppo DV-983H for a while now and still haven't found one. So I'm looking for other player recommendations. Not needing great upscaling, that should add more player options


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:11 pm 



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How important is to burn CD-R's at 4x or 8x? I was told you ALWAYS have to burn these (Dreamcast, GameCube, Saturn, etc. discs) at those lower speeds.

I'm trying to burn Dreamcast CDI's with my burner and the slowest speed it'll do on ImgBurn (which I have to use since it's the only program I know of which can properly burn CDI's - with the extra drivers/DLL's or whatever added of course) is 10x speed. When I verify the games I get errors, but they still seem to play fine? (haven't played all the way through a game or anything...)

For the verification errors, could that perhaps be because it can't properly verify a CDI disc? I haven't tried to verify another systems disc as I've already burned all those, and am just working on a couple Dreamcast games right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:35 pm 



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Dochartaigh wrote:
How important is to burn CD-R's at 4x or 8x? I was told you ALWAYS have to burn these (Dreamcast, GameCube, Saturn, etc. discs) at those lower speeds.

I'm trying to burn Dreamcast CDI's with my burner and the slowest speed it'll do on ImgBurn (which I have to use since it's the only program I know of which can properly burn CDI's - with the extra drivers/DLL's or whatever added of course) is 10x speed. When I verify the games I get errors, but they still seem to play fine? (haven't played all the way through a game or anything...)

For the verification errors, could that perhaps be because it can't properly verify a CDI disc? I haven't tried to verify another systems disc as I've already burned all those, and am just working on a couple Dreamcast games right now.


I only realized recently that my drive has a minimum 16x write speed. I had been setting it at 8x in ImgBurn and didn't even notice that it was changing it to 16x. At any rate, I've burned a number of games and they generally work fine. But definitely the slower the better, IMO. When I was not setting it low, nearly 75% of the discs I burned didn't work.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:06 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
How important is to burn CD-R's at 4x or 8x? I was told you ALWAYS have to burn these (Dreamcast, GameCube, Saturn, etc. discs) at those lower speeds.

I'm trying to burn Dreamcast CDI's with my burner and the slowest speed it'll do on ImgBurn (which I have to use since it's the only program I know of which can properly burn CDI's - with the extra drivers/DLL's or whatever added of course) is 10x speed. When I verify the games I get errors, but they still seem to play fine? (haven't played all the way through a game or anything...)

For the verification errors, could that perhaps be because it can't properly verify a CDI disc? I haven't tried to verify another systems disc as I've already burned all those, and am just working on a couple Dreamcast games right now.


I read somewhere that modern CD burners perform best when writing at higher speeds because that's what manufacturers expect people to do. I've found this to be true, though with fairly unscientific testing- audio CDs burned at 8x speed skip constantly in my car, whereas the same tracks burned at 32x speed work perfectly. Your mileage may vary, but I think there's going to be a sweet spot with your burner and discs that won't necessarily just be the lowest speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:07 pm 


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I've read a bunch of mixed information about this. The consensus seems to be that slower does not always mean better. Both drives and media are rated for a given speed, and should perform better when used at that speed. This page discusses it in some detail, and another here.

I am not really sure myself, many people swear by old (and now rather expensive) Plextor drives at a low speed coupled with high quality Taiyo Yuden discs. You'll struggle to find any modern CD writer that will go lower than 16x though.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:28 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
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I think I've been spoiled with my ancient 2009 Mac pro which I could burn down to 1x (on these same exact cheap Verbatim - which are coming back as "Ritek, Co" discs in ImgBurn log). And it's also worrisome that I'm getting verification errors when I verify the disk....but they still seem to play just fine even when burned at 10x so who friggin knows...


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:45 pm 


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For what it's worth, I've burnt a lot of games for Saturn, DC, mega cd etc, with a cheap external writer(at 10X), using fairly cheap verbatim discs. No issues on any of the systems so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:18 pm 



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Can anyone explain what it is that a slower burn is supposed to do? I get that it should be a digital copy, but do slower burns allow the burned areas to be "deeper" or some other way easier for older drives to read?


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