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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:57 pm 



Joined: 22 Sep 2017
Posts: 30
I have a stock AV Famicom, and I plan to have it RGB modded in the future. For the time being, composite is the best I can get out of it which I will feed into my framemeister. My question is, would the standard Nintendo OEM AV cables be the best for a composite signal? Or are there better quality composite video cables out there for a NES/SNES/N64/GCN?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:16 am 


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Joined: 11 Mar 2016
Posts: 35
Location: France
Got a question about displaying Dreamcast 480p through Toro into a BVM-D14H1E (via BKM129X):

How do you handle the wrong 720x480 output to restore the correct aspect ratio? Even pushing the HSIZE to +31 isn't enough it seems. Do I need something of the likes of the Extron DVS204?
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https://www.wkd4496.net/


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:34 am 


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Joined: 01 Apr 2014
Posts: 149
Quick Extron switch question -

I've got a Crosspoint 300 1616. On the back, it has a series of switches for 75ohm and 510ohm sync.
According to the manual, it should be set to 75ohm for 75ohm outputs, and 510ohm for every other output. However, the more I'm reading the more I'm getting confused and doubting this.

Everything I read by both Voultar and RetroRGB seems to imply that you want 75ohm sync coming out the back of your console, or at the very least your cable. However, the Extron manual seems to imply that they want a TTL level sync coming from the input.

Can I get a bit of clarification on what I should be setting the switches to for a SNES, N64, and Mega Drive?
And would it also be possible to get clarification on the output level of sync signals from the Crosspoint?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:00 am 



Joined: 08 Jul 2017
Posts: 42
Jademalo wrote:
Quick Extron switch question -

I've got a Crosspoint 300 1616. On the back, it has a series of switches for 75ohm and 510ohm sync.
According to the manual, it should be set to 75ohm for 75ohm outputs, and 510ohm for every other output. However, the more I'm reading the more I'm getting confused and doubting this.


The switches are for changing high level non-TTL sync signals down to a range the Crosspoint likes.
Consoles are not going to be outputting that so go ahead and have them in the default 510ohm position.

Jademalo wrote:
Everything I read by both Voultar and RetroRGB seems to imply that you want 75ohm sync coming out the back of your console, or at the very least your cable. However, the Extron manual seems to imply that they want a TTL level sync coming from the input.


It's because the Crosspoint devices weren't really designed for video game consoles, however when cabled correctly they happen to work really good for them.

Jademalo wrote:
And would it also be possible to get clarification on the output level of sync signals from the Crosspoint?

Thanks!


The output level is going to be higher then you would want for most situations. The popular cable manufacturers have cables with the proper components in them specifically for the Crosspoints to get the sync level down to an acceptable level.

That said, if your going into a PVM, it might be able to handle the unmodified signal fine (check the manual for it). Also if you plan to use it as a Component video switcher you also don't need to worry about the sync level as it only applies to the sync outputs, not the RGB outputs.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:36 am 


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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 1926
Location: DFW area, Texas
Revolver Ocelot wrote:


Thanks for the info. I was not aware that the Framemeister has this Problem with Sega Saturn. Would the packapunch cable help to minimise the problem is there nothing that can be done against it?


The problem is in the Saturn itself. It doesn't have internal video LPF for 352 and 704 modes (at least some Saturns don't anyway), and so these jail bars can even be seen on CRTs or hooking the console up to a display without a Framemeister. Since the OSSC's 9MHz Video LPF setting completely removes the jail bars, it sort of proves the point of it being the Saturn's lack of LPF for those modes.
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:45 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 461
Jademalo wrote:
Quick Extron switch question -

I've got a Crosspoint 300 1616. On the back, it has a series of switches for 75ohm and 510ohm sync.
According to the manual, it should be set to 75ohm for 75ohm outputs, and 510ohm for every other output. However, the more I'm reading the more I'm getting confused and doubting this.

Everything I read by both Voultar and RetroRGB seems to imply that you want 75ohm sync coming out the back of your console, or at the very least your cable. However, the Extron manual seems to imply that they want a TTL level sync coming from the input.

Can I get a bit of clarification on what I should be setting the switches to for a SNES, N64, and Mega Drive?
And would it also be possible to get clarification on the output level of sync signals from the Crosspoint?

Thanks!


In a nutshell, if from your Crosspoint you run to something like an OSSC, Framemeister, Shinybow SB-2840, or a RGB TV if you live in Europe (guessing here as I live in the states), you want a 470Ω resistor on the sync line. That's it. You need this because the sync coming off the extron is 5vp-p, and those consumer-oriented devices are only safe to use with around 1vp-p and under. Your PVM, BVM, any other pro-type converter/transcoder/up/downscaler boxes (i.e. Extron, Kramer, etc.) are all fine with the higher level sync for the most point. Even YPbPr/Component coming off the Crosspoint is fine since only the H Sync and V Sync lines are raised up to that ;dangerous' 5vp-p level.

Here's a good article about this: https://www.snailtoothgaming.com/articl ... nc-output/


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:38 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 312
Dochartaigh wrote:
In a nutshell, if from your Crosspoint you run to something like an OSSC... you want a 470Ω resistor on the sync line.

Minor correction/clarification: AV3 on the OSSC (VGA/DE-15 port) requires TTL sync; it's only AV1 (SCART) that you would need to bring sync down to 1Vp-p with that resistor.

Now, you could very well connect the output of the CrossPoint directly to AV3 on the OSSC, but AV3 is intended for high-quality sources, like PCs, and has insufficient filtering for retro consoles.

The OSSC wiki specifically recommends AV1 and AV2 for retro consoles, as they have stronger low-pass filtering, so, if your CrossPoint is going to be primarily for retro consoles, it would be preferable to connect it to AV1 on the OSSC, with the composite sync signal attenuated with the 470Ω resistor.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:05 pm 


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Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 83
Does anyone recognize this?

I've had 2 model 1 genesis' apart in the past week and found this thing inside one of them under the bottom RF shield

Never seen it before, pretty sure it's not meant to be in there. Even watched 3 youtube vids of console tear-downs and saw nothing of the sort

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:09 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 461
nmalinoski wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
In a nutshell, if from your Crosspoint you run to something like an OSSC... you want a 470Ω resistor on the sync line.

Minor correction/clarification: AV3 on the OSSC (VGA/DE-15 port) requires TTL sync; it's only AV1 (SCART) that you would need to bring sync down to 1Vp-p with that resistor.

Now, you could very well connect the output of the CrossPoint directly to AV3 on the OSSC, but AV3 is intended for high-quality sources, like PCs, and has insufficient filtering for retro consoles.

The OSSC wiki specifically recommends AV1 and AV2 for retro consoles, as they have stronger low-pass filtering, so, if your CrossPoint is going to be primarily for retro consoles, it would be preferable to connect it to AV1 on the OSSC, with the composite sync signal attenuated with the 470Ω resistor.


Yup, and all mine look dirty without the low pass filter which is why I use the SCART AV1 which needs a resistor ;) (it would be a lot easier and cheaper to use a simple BNC to VGA cable though! Wish that port had a LPF!).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:54 pm 



Joined: 28 Mar 2018
Posts: 22
Location: Germany
I am thinkning of getting a Gamecube and wonder if it s worth considering one of the HDMI mods or is a neat RGB Scart cable in connection with the Framemeister good enough? I will get most likely a pal gamecube so most of the games do not offer 480p. And one the big advantages for the component or HDMi outputs should be the 480p ouput. But how well 576i or 480 i would look with HDMI. Is HDMI still worth considering or shall I just get a scart rgb cable for the Framemeister?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:15 am 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 719
Location: Australia
maxtherabbit wrote:
Does anyone recognize this?

I've had 2 model 1 genesis' apart in the past week and found this thing inside one of them under the bottom RF shield

Never seen it before, pretty sure it's not meant to be in there. Even watched 3 youtube vids of console tear-downs and saw nothing of the sort




Its the tab for the security screw on the back of the MD.
Look for the hole around the centre of the case and slot it in there, nothing else holds it in.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:09 am 


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Joined: 01 Apr 2014
Posts: 149
Dochartaigh wrote:
In a nutshell, if from your Crosspoint you run to something like an OSSC, Framemeister, Shinybow SB-2840, or a RGB TV if you live in Europe (guessing here as I live in the states), you want a 470Ω resistor on the sync line. That's it. You need this because the sync coming off the extron is 5vp-p, and those consumer-oriented devices are only safe to use with around 1vp-p and under. Your PVM, BVM, any other pro-type converter/transcoder/up/downscaler boxes (i.e. Extron, Kramer, etc.) are all fine with the higher level sync for the most point. Even YPbPr/Component coming off the Crosspoint is fine since only the H Sync and V Sync lines are raised up to that ;dangerous' 5vp-p level.

Here's a good article about this: https://www.snailtoothgaming.com/articl ... nc-output/


Thank you, that was an extremely interesting read. It definitely looks like I'm going to have to add some resistors to my BNC to SCART outputs from the Crosspoint. I had no idea that it boosted the sync to such high levels.

So my current setup is this. All consoles are feeding either RGBs or YPbPr into the Crosspoint. I then have three outputs;
    A Sony BVM-20F1E
    An XRGB Mini
    An OSSC

According to the manual, the BVM can handle sync signals between "0.3 to 8 Vp-p". This is connected to the Crosspoint with a straight through BNC to BNC cable for all signal types - RGBs, YPbPr, Y/C, and Composite. I'm assuming this means it's absolutely fine with the output from the Crosspoint as it is now straight into the BVM.
The XRGB Mini and the OSSC are both connected using Retrogamingcables.co.uk's BNC to Male SCART cable. They're older ones without the directional switch, but they're wired for output. As far as I'm aware, these don't have the 470ohm resistor in them, so they'll need that to attenuate the sync line.

My biggest concern is I've been using this setup for years. I remember noticing snow when using the SNES through the Mini, and I'm wondering if this is related.
How much damage could this realistically have done to my Mini and OSSC? They seem to be fine, but I'm still pretty concerned.

Anyway, I've ordered myself a few 470ohm resistors and an actually usable soldering iron, hopefully that will let me sort it.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:58 pm 


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Joined: 05 Jun 2016
Posts: 112
Location: Ireland
Hey All,

I recently picked up a Sony PVM-14L4.

Does anyone know if this monitor needs 75ohm termination plugs on the RGBs outputs, or is it self terminating? I checked the manual but I'm not 100% sure.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:19 am 



Joined: 01 Jul 2016
Posts: 27
All PVM monitors have automatic termination, so there is no need for termination plugs. Only BVM monitors need them.


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