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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:08 am 


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I have a Sony Trinitron KV-34HS510 and had a few questions about the service menu.

1. First, there were a couple settings I found that looked like they actually raised the white level past the regular user adjustable range (increasing contrast ratio without clipping) but want to make sure I'm not being fooled. Those settings are SPIC and YGN. SPIC at 15 appears to increase true contrast ratio but I wasn't sure if this was a good idea to set past the default 7. The set does appear to lower brightness level if it detects a scene with too much pure white in when I have "Picture" set close to max.

2. I was also wondering if there was a good test image or test suite for the dozen or so settings under "CXA2170D-1" which control image dimensions and warping. It has been nearly impossible getting these correct just with a menu or game.

3. I want to get a view of the full 1080i frame but when I try to disable horizontal blanking, the set doesn't really allow me to see the whole picture when I lower HSIZ. Even with left blanking set the best I can it still cuts off the left side, and depending on what I do it will often overwrite itself on the right side of the image which makes me think the set just isn't capable of scanning the full width of a 1920x1080i frame in the user viewable space. Not that the width is the only problem, as trying to see more of the top results in horizontal break distortions that are unsuitable for viewing. So essentially I need to live with a slight overscan on 1080i signals, correct?

4. Then, I was trying to find settings like AXPL, AXNT and AXIS and was not able to find them. Is there some sub menu I need to access?

5. I was really interested in HDPT because it looked great to me for the most part, increasing perceived resolution but I don't know how much of it is natural or fake like a sharpening filter. Playing games I have to decide between the apparent increase in resolution with higher lag or with HDPT off with near zero-lag.

6. I went through convergence settings and maybe improved things a little bit as white vertical lines match up well enough, but the biggest problem still is horizontal lines not matching up. Also the sides of the screen are blurrier than the center. Do I need to open up the set to fix these?

Despite some of my issues and questions the set looks amazing. I haven't played on a CRT in over ten years. I wanted to get an XBR960 but they all go for at least $400. Maybe one day, but for now I'm happy to experience the HS510.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:39 am 


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TrantaLocked_ wrote:

1. Not sure. Haven't messed with that.

2. Test patterns should ideally be from the system you are using. People use 240p test suite a lot, but that won't help for 1080i. You can buy a pattern generator, or you can use a DVD player with a burned series of test patterns that you download online.

3. I think there might be more than one setting in there that controls H Size. Keep poking around in the geometry stuff.

4.No clue.

5. HDPT on turns the digital processing off, reducing lag, not the other way around. It's High Definition Pass Through, it was created because of a bug in the original design that prevented certain cable satellite services from working correctly on the set. It's speculated that Sony knew about the issue before the set was released and included the pass through to safeguard against issues.

6. You would have to buy and learn to use convergence strips to do that. It's not impossible, but it's kind of an art and I've never tried it before. There are some youtube videos on it.

If you really want to go further down the road, you should read all the history, which is mostly on the AVS Forums. That's where stuff like this was discussed in the early 2000s. Make sure you get the end of it all before you apply anything; there are many developments that change over the course of it.

This one mostly:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/signal ... vs.293741/

But also this one:
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/comput ... ts.270471/


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:46 am 


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vol.2 wrote:
TrantaLocked_ wrote:

1. Not sure. Haven't messed with that.

2. Test patterns should ideally be from the system you are using. People use 240p test suite a lot, but that won't help for 1080i. You can buy a pattern generator, or you can use a DVD player with a burned series of test patterns that you download online.

3. I think there might be more than one setting in there that controls H Size. Keep poking around in the geometry stuff.

4.No clue.

5. HDPT on turns the digital processing off, reducing lag, not the other way around. It's High Definition Pass Through, it was created because of a bug in the original design that prevented certain cable satellite services from working correctly on the set. It's speculated that Sony knew about the issue before the set was released and included the pass through to safeguard against issues.

6. You would have to buy and learn to use convergence strips to do that. It's not impossible, but it's kind of an art and I've never tried it before. There are some youtube videos on it.

If you really want to go further down the road, you should read all the history, which is mostly on the AVS Forums. That's where stuff like this was discussed in the early 2000s. Make sure you get the end of it all before you apply anything; there are many developments that change over the course of it.

This one mostly:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/signal ... vs.293741/

But also this one:
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/comput ... ts.270471/


Thanks. Do you have a clear idea of what the digital processing is actually doing? To me it looks like an advanced sharpening filter, probably the best I've ever seen, but I also speculated that it also involved speed modulation of the laser to help increase definition at color transitions. i also don't get what it's doing to the color, as in how or why, but it looks really good to me.

As for H size, you're right but there are a ton of sub-settings to go through. I mean if I'm really set on it I will figure it out and it's likely it ends up futile, so I thought someone might have already done it themselves (as in completely disabling overscan without any edge artifacts and with a full view, edge to edge, of a full 1920x1080i frame). Not that I'm sure that's a totally good thing though, maybe it's better for small text clarity to be zoomed in more.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:19 am 


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TrantaLocked_ wrote:
Do you have a clear idea of what the digital processing is actually doing?


It's not just doing one thing. The DRC chip is actually pretty advanced. SONY was generally pretty cagey about that stuff, and I don't think there is a confirmed set of what it does anywhere, but there are some good empirical guesses in those threads that I linked for you. If you really want to know, the best way is to read the AVS threads.

Keep reading the service manual. The geometry stuff is all in the same place. Get a notebook, make a chart of the values every time you change anything to keep track of what's happening. Don't switch around sources when you are setting geometry. Different inputs have different geometry settings.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:13 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 28
nmalinoski wrote:
AaronSR wrote:
In OBS when streaming PS1 stuff (320X240 > 320X224) should the image be skewed to a 4:3 ratio? Just want to double check because I usually instead of upscaling the image to 1028X720 (after cropping the top and bottom black bars) the image should then be skewed to a 960X720 resolution, correct? This is sort of how a CRT does it (well, it kinda cuts off the top and bottom overscan to achieve the same)? There's also some games like Crash and Spyro that run at really wide resolution (512X224)

So 960X720 for pretty much everything from SD consoles (except games with widescreen support)? Thanks

I'd say yes; if the game does not have explicit widescreen support, then the resulting image should be adjusted to 4:3. Apply overscan as/if desired.

Variable horizontal resolutions are pretty common up through the 5th and 6th generation, when CRTs still ruled, so they should not be displayed 1:1 on a fixed-pixel display.


And same for 256X224 (SNES games) should be stretched to also be 4:3 (960X720) I'm assuming?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:38 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2021
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I have a gamecube setup running with EON MKII outputting through some SCART cables I got from console5 (https://console5.com/store/nintendo-wii ... cable.html) and I'm having issue where the screen just gradually gets whiter and whiter until its solid white and unusable.

I'm not sure how to trouble shoot if this is an issue with the gamecube, the Eon or the cable.

Here are examples of what it is doing
https://paste.pics/0ae84f9841b6a6b10b38133050a156d6 - started at 9:07
https://paste.pics/bc20ac836dd1b05184856ab488ade668 - 9:09
https://paste.pics/2c5aa17c74bfbcd108b35deb310efd1a - 9:12

by 9:15 its completely white and unplayable.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:01 am 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1967
Guile wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
From what you said, and assuming you have a 1.6 OSSC (you didn't specify), you're using the wrong audio input for AV3; you need to use the TRS jack next to the DE-15 input. The TRS jack next to the HDMI output is for AV2 input (or AV1 breakout, if you flip the little switch).


Thanks that did it. I was also confused as one of my scalers doesn't pass audio. I do have a 1.6 ossc and the audio jack was next to the hdmi port on the opposite side of the AV1 jack, there was no jack near the DE-15.

Oops; my mistake; but, yes, it was the other one. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:01 am 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1967
AaronSR wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
AaronSR wrote:
In OBS when streaming PS1 stuff (320X240 > 320X224) should the image be skewed to a 4:3 ratio? Just want to double check because I usually instead of upscaling the image to 1028X720 (after cropping the top and bottom black bars) the image should then be skewed to a 960X720 resolution, correct? This is sort of how a CRT does it (well, it kinda cuts off the top and bottom overscan to achieve the same)? There's also some games like Crash and Spyro that run at really wide resolution (512X224)

So 960X720 for pretty much everything from SD consoles (except games with widescreen support)? Thanks

I'd say yes; if the game does not have explicit widescreen support, then the resulting image should be adjusted to 4:3. Apply overscan as/if desired.

Variable horizontal resolutions are pretty common up through the 5th and 6th generation, when CRTs still ruled, so they should not be displayed 1:1 on a fixed-pixel display.


And same for 256X224 (SNES games) should be stretched to also be 4:3 (960X720) I'm assuming?

Yes. Everything SNES should be distorted to 4:3.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 6:58 pm 


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can the OSSC convert to a locked 60fps?

I want to send a 720p upscaled signal to my capture card and preferably locked at stable 60fps. I recognize the Retrotink 5x does this and that it's a dynamite product at a fair price but I don't have the budget for it at the moment.

I'm eying the OSSC which I can get at $200 CAD and I hope if can convert to stable 60 but if not I might use it anyway. although I'd prefer to capture 60 to avoid stutter, sound pitch-shifting in parts etc. just seems easier for streaming to pump 60 fps all the way from OBS to Youtube.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:08 pm 


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The OSSC output ALWAYS follows the input refresh rate.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:14 pm 


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I see. Thanks Fudoh!
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 7:01 am 


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Anyone have info on how upscaling is going to work on the MakeMHz XboxHD+ mod? Will it set the GPU to a chosen output resolution or is a chip on the mod doing the upscaling?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:38 pm 



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TrantaLocked_ wrote:
Anyone have info on how upscaling is going to work on the MakeMHz XboxHD+ mod? Will it set the GPU to a chosen output resolution or is a chip on the mod doing the upscaling?

I think it's unlikely that it's causing the Xbox itself to do any additional work; I think it most likely that the mod itself is performing upscaling.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 9:54 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
TrantaLocked_ wrote:
Anyone have info on how upscaling is going to work on the MakeMHz XboxHD+ mod? Will it set the GPU to a chosen output resolution or is a chip on the mod doing the upscaling?

I think it's unlikely that it's causing the Xbox itself to do any additional work; I think it most likely that the mod itself is performing upscaling.


The reason I thought it could be the Xbox GPU is sort of how you can run games in a 640x480 resolution in your computer's OS but the output to your monitor is higher. Usually when people talk about patching Xbox games to run in 720p like Halo 1, they are talking about actually changing the games internal rendering resolution which has a performance penalty, but I thought maybe there was a way to set the GPU output sort of like how you would on a computer, where the content itself runs the same but is simply nearest neighbor or bilinear upscaled to your output resolution. As far as I know that doesn't add input lag but I'm not really sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:10 pm 


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TrantaLocked_ wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
TrantaLocked_ wrote:
Anyone have info on how upscaling is going to work on the MakeMHz XboxHD+ mod? Will it set the GPU to a chosen output resolution or is a chip on the mod doing the upscaling?

I think it's unlikely that it's causing the Xbox itself to do any additional work; I think it most likely that the mod itself is performing upscaling.


The reason I thought it could be the Xbox GPU is sort of how you can run games in a 640x480 resolution in your computer's OS but the output to your monitor is higher. Usually when people talk about patching Xbox games to run in 720p like Halo 1, they are talking about actually changing the games internal rendering resolution which has a performance penalty, but I thought maybe there was a way to set the GPU output sort of like how you would on a computer, where the content itself runs the same but is simply nearest neighbor or bilinear upscaled to your output resolution. As far as I know that doesn't add input lag but I'm not really sure.

I don't believe the Xbox GPU has that ability but I'm not sure


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 12:04 am 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
TrantaLocked_ wrote:
The reason I thought it could be the Xbox GPU is sort of how you can run games in a 640x480 resolution in your computer's OS but the output to your monitor is higher. Usually when people talk about patching Xbox games to run in 720p like Halo 1, they are talking about actually changing the games internal rendering resolution which has a performance penalty, but I thought maybe there was a way to set the GPU output sort of like how you would on a computer, where the content itself runs the same but is simply nearest neighbor or bilinear upscaled to your output resolution. As far as I know that doesn't add input lag but I'm not really sure.

I don't believe the Xbox GPU has that ability but I'm not sure

I also think it lacks this ability; sure, it's common now, but I don't recall anything like this back in 2000/2001 when the Xbox was designed and produced. CRTs were still the most common display at that point, so needing to disconnect the rendering video mode from the output video mode (Which I'd say is primarily to avoid HDMI blackouts) wasn't even a consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 12:17 am 


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It first came on the scene with PC video cards that had DVI support. They would scale the output to the native resolution of the LCD panel as per its EDID. However this was done in the TMDS transmitter chip IIRC not the GPU

The first of these cards were indeed contemporary with the original xbox, so it's possible the feature made it over, but I seriously doubt it


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 12:13 pm 


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What about when an OS is downscaling or upscaling images on a desktop, something that has surely existed since before the Xbox? Is that not something the OS is calling on the GPU to do or is the CPU calculating that before the image gets sent to the GPU? I suppose if the OS can do it maybe it could be with a kernel patch on the Xbox. Only reason I really care is for input lag reasons. I'm trying to pair the upcoming MakeMHz 1080i upscale feature to my Sony Trinitron which can do 1080i lagless if set correctly in the service menu, so it would kind of be a setback if the upscaling was even single-frame buffered which I'd really prefer not to have. At the least nearest neighbor should be pretty fast regardless of what is going on behind the scenes.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 8:13 am 



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I'm trying to solve a problem of serious noise or interference when going from PS2 component > gbs-control > ossc. I've seen that the ossc AV3 does not have full lpf options so I was thinking of trying AV1 to see if it can filter the noise out.

What is the best way to connect the vga output from the gbs to the SCART AV1 on the ossc? From what I've seen, it would require going from RGBHV to RGBS?

It could also be a problem with the actual power outlets in the room. I tested it on an outlet closer to the ossc and the noise seemed to be gone. Any suggestions for dealing with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 8:34 am 


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The source of power-related interference can be pretty hard to pin down. How are you powering the GBS-C? I used to have wavy interference on mine but I got an Anker USB charger and now the image is super clean. You could try powering the devices from different outlets if that's an option.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 3:09 pm 



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Guile wrote:
What is the best way to connect the vga output from the gbs to the SCART AV1 on the ossc? From what I've seen, it would require going from RGBHV to RGBS?

You may not end up going this route if you can directly solve the interference issue, but you can use an Extron RGB interface to do so; just beware that SCART applications expect video-level sync, and VGA and pro AV gear (like the RGB interfaces) use 5V TTL sync, so you'll either need a BNC to SCART adapter that attenuates the sync line or an inline attenuator (Retro Access at least used to make these).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:21 pm 



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Posts: 60
I was able to mostly solve the interference noise problem. I applied copper tape to the traces on the bottom of the gbs-c which eliminated about 90% of the noisy horizontal lines but the biggest one was still barely visible. So I connected it to an rgb interface and that totally got rid of the last band.

I still have shimmering when the image is still but it is also heavily reduced, not visible in motion, and mostly acceptable to me now. I'll look into that more.

Of course this just led to another issue. If I plug in the rgb interface it will often not seem to pick up the signal unless I power it on and off a few times. I'm using component in and component out and its a 109xi. Is there some way to get it to pick up the signal without toggling the power?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 3:14 pm 



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I'm looking to hook my PS2 up to a PC CRT exclusively for (the few) 480p titles on there. Would prefer to keep an analogue signal path from console to monitor aside from any sync processing. Would a cheap RGB interface to convert from RGsB to RGBHV like an Extron 160xi or 192v be a better buy than a YPbPr/RGB transcoder, i.e. can the RGB signals be passed through an Extron without processing or degradation?


Last edited by ross on Sun May 09, 2021 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 3:27 pm 


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Quote:
Would a cheap RGB interface to convert from RGsB to RGBHV like an Extron 160xi or 192v .......i.e. can the RGB signals be passed through an Extron without processing or degradation?

yes and yes.

But the method to switching from 15 to 31khz widely varies from game to game, so to fly "blind" during the boot up isn't easy, if you don't want to memorize the exact procedure for every single game you want to try.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:11 pm 



Joined: 06 May 2020
Posts: 28
Hello,
Finally got my vision master pro 454. I have it for a week or so. First i thought it doesn't work. I bought a Delock 62967 as Fudoh advice, and also a simple lindy hdmi to vga. Both were defective :roll: When i plug the lindy the image started to jump between the two monitors. With the delock nothing happens at all when i plugged it, i tried with windows, linux, two different vga monitor (another one was a lcd), two graphic card... Lindy sent me a new one that is working fine, delock is on its way for RMA.

Anyway, a chance i got another dac that i knew was working. The monitor was finally working, but i quickly discover ot emit an unpleasant smell. Also the image is dark, very dark. I put the contrast and luminosity at 100, gamma at 50, and some game are dark as hell.
Some game are playable but in some extreme case it's unplayable, for example i try sky of arcadia with dolphin, you do not see a thing. I tried mother russia bleed on my switch and it's the same, you don't see the floor, it's like your character is moving in the dark. I manage to make it better by increasing the gamma in the option to 120, but it still far too dark.

I just open the monitor today to see if i don't see any problem, like a leaking cap. Don't see a thing, maybe a cap that begin to round off a little but it's slight. After some hour of utilization it seems the unpleasant smell is far less pronounce, the seller told me the monitor wasn't use the last four years, it's likely some dust that emit this smell when the monitor starts heating.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:59 pm 



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Posts: 480
ross wrote:
I'm looking to hook my PS2 up to a PC CRT exclusively for (the few) 480p titles on there. Would prefer to keep an analogue signal path from console to monitor aside from any sync processing. Would a cheap RGB interface to convert from RGsB to RGBHV like an Extron 160xi or 192v be a better buy than a YPbPr/RGB transcoder, i.e. can the RGB signals be passed through an Extron without processing or degradation?


Have you checked to see whether your monitor accepts RGsB already?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:38 am 


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Is there a good way to play light gun games on a PC?

I'm not really a fan of the Wiimote method.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:28 am 


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Quote:
I tried mother russia bleed on my switch and it's the same, you don't see the floor

sounds if you're getting black crush. Switch between full and limited range RGB ouput on the PC side to see if this makes a difference. Many of the DACs require one specific setting and don't play well with the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:45 pm 



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vol.2 wrote:
Is there a good way to play light gun games on a PC?

I'm not really a fan of the Wiimote method.


https://www.sindenlightgun.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 2:55 pm 


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ldeveraux wrote:


Thanks

I think I ran into that on youtube at some point, but I wasn't sure if it is any good. Has anyone here actually used one of them?


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