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 Post subject: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:05 am 


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I've tested with doj and mushi the 1st, but couldn't find any option in the test menu...
Is there any way (maybe with the dipswitchs on the boards) to flip 180° the image of a cave board ?

thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:50 pm 


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No, AFAIK, since the PGM hardware and forward, all CAVE games are presented upside down (from what's more common with JAMMA verts. You need to flip it on your monitor chassis.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:03 pm 


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emphatic wrote:
No, AFAIK, since the PGM hardware and forward, all CAVE games are presented upside down (from what's more common with JAMMA verts. You need to flip it on your monitor chassis.


By flipping the rgb source that goes directly into the tube, right ?
(Therefore the image will be flipped 180° in horizontal position)

(hope my english is clear here..)


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:37 pm 


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cheuboh wrote:
By flipping the rgb source that goes directly into the tube, right ?
(Therefore the image will be flipped 180° in horizontal position)

(hope my english is clear here..)


On the chassis you should have a connector that looks like this:

Image

Usually you will have two separate connectors. If it looks like the pictured one, you will have to cut the plastic in the middle so that you can turn it. The "flip" itself is done by removing this from the chassis, then putting it back the other way around.

If you take the wrong one, you would get a horizontal flip instead, making the picture backwards.

NOTE: NEVER PUT THE RED/BLUE WIRE CONNECTOR ON THE YELLOW/GREEN CONNECTOR CHASSIS CONNECTOR or the monitor will break.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:05 pm 


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So in this case here, you just cut in the middle then flip each branch so that
-blue wire is going on red chassis connector, and red wire on blue chassis connector
and
-yellow wire goes on green chassis connector, and green wire on yellow chassis connector

Right ?

Never put red and blue on the space where yellow and green goes, right ?


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:21 pm 


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right.
You could also rotate the monitor and switch all your other (switcheable) boards. I think that most japanese cabs and pcb releases use the cave orientation.


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:57 pm 


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Yes, that is correct. Out of curiosity, what type of cabinet/chassis do you have?

I have EGRET IIs, and it only rotates 90 degrees, but luckily the way that works for both CAVE and NEO-GEO (can't be flipped either) but some older JAMMA boards I have lack the flip option but is in the *correct* JAMMA orientation (Gemini Wing) so I've never played it as I'm a lazy ass.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:09 pm 


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I'm maybe about to buy myself a taito canary cab :mrgreen:
Same screen /chassis as in the mvsU series (Toei TC-HV25LMT i think)

That cab has the "easy rotate system", BUT ! in the "wrong way"...
It can only be "tated" to the right, which means the left side when in hori become the up side when in tate position.
Am i clear ?

I want to mainly play shmups on this and all the shmup boards i own display the bottom of the image in this left side of the screen when in hori, that's my problem.

Oh and it cannot be tated the other way on this cab, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:46 pm 


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Oh by the way, is it dangerous either for me or the screen to swap the rgb like that all the time ?
I won't do it often, but can i do it without hurting the tube ?


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:41 pm 


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cheuboh wrote:
Oh by the way, is it dangerous either for me or the screen to swap the rgb like that all the time ?
I won't do it often, but can i do it without hurting the tube ?


Shouldn't be a problem. Just don't stick anything metal anywhere and don't touch the anod cup (the "sucker" on the tube). And never have the power plug in the socket as you perform any of these actions.

Most JAMMA pcb's have screen flip option though, the exceptions being NEO-GEO, CAVE and a couple of others. So the best option is keeping it in "CAVE mode" and flip everything else when needed.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:50 pm 


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emphatic wrote:
Most JAMMA pcb's have screen flip option though, the exceptions being NEO-GEO, CAVE and a couple of others. So the best option is keeping it in "CAVE mode" and flip everything else when needed.


That's exactly what i'm going to do, thanks mate, you've been really helpful here, i really appreciate :)


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:22 am 


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I've heard of of people adding switches to those wires to flip on the fly. (I guess turn off first?). if you want to play a game in the bathroom mirror with the cab around the corner, you can get a mirror image with those wires, too (for use in gun cabs that use mirrors).


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:15 am 


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cheuboh wrote:
I'm maybe about to buy myself a taito canary cab :mrgreen:
Same screen /chassis as in the mvsU series (Toei TC-HV25LMT i think)

That cab has the "easy rotate system", BUT ! in the "wrong way"...
It can only be "tated" to the right, which means the left side when in hori become the up side when in tate position.


The Namco Exceleena cabs are the same way, with a chassis that can only rotate the wrong way for Cave games (and wrong for 90% of verts out there). The solution was to disassemble the chassis frame and remount it backwards, which allowed me to flip it the opposite way only. I haven't seen a Canary cab up close, but this may be a better option for you to try than touching those very dangerous coil wires every time you want to play a vert.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:49 pm 


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Dave_K. wrote:
The Namco Exceleena cabs are the same way, with a chassis that can only rotate the wrong way for Cave games (and wrong for 90% of verts out there). The solution was to disassemble the chassis frame and remount it backwards, which allowed me to flip it the opposite way only. I haven't seen a Canary cab up close, but this may be a better option for you to try than touching those very dangerous coil wires every time you want to play a vert.


Having it rotate the "right" way is of course a better option than having to yoke flip it, but are you sure that these coil wires are so dangerous to touch (with the power plug out of socket)? I'm all about safety, so I will gladly take back my advice if the actions I've wrote here are in fact life-threatening. Advice I've been given myself about monitor safety is that as long as the power is off, the only danger lies inside the anod suction cup, and though it will hurt and scare you it's only dangerous if you have a weak heart.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:12 pm 


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Dave_K. wrote:
cheuboh wrote:
I'm maybe about to buy myself a taito canary cab :mrgreen:
Same screen /chassis as in the mvsU series (Toei TC-HV25LMT i think)

That cab has the "easy rotate system", BUT ! in the "wrong way"...
It can only be "tated" to the right, which means the left side when in hori become the up side when in tate position.


The Namco Exceleena cabs are the same way, with a chassis that can only rotate the wrong way for Cave games (and wrong for 90% of verts out there). The solution was to disassemble the chassis frame and remount it backwards, which allowed me to flip it the opposite way only. I haven't seen a Canary cab up close, but this may be a better option for you to try than touching those very dangerous coil wires every time you want to play a vert.


Well i'm thinking of this too, but i don't have the cab yet, so couldn't really work this out.
Besides, from a quick point a view, it seems it's impossible to flip the frame in the opposite way, the cab is simply not prepared for that i think.
If you have pictures explaining all of this, it would be great Dave.


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:24 pm 


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emphatic wrote:
I'm all about safety, so I will gladly take back my advice if the actions I've wrote here are in fact life-threatening. Advice I've been given myself about monitor safety is that as long as the power is off, the only danger lies inside the anod suction cup, and though it will hurt and scare you it's only dangerous if you have a weak heart.


You are probably right, when the power is off there shouldn't be any charge left in the yoke coil windings, just in the tube/anode cap. I'm just overly cautious as those windings are high voltage when on.

cheuboh wrote:
Besides, from a quick point a view, it seems it's impossible to flip the frame in the opposite way, the cab is simply not prepared for that i think.
If you have pictures explaining all of this, it would be great Dave.


It may be a lot easier than you think to change the frame to flip the opposite direction. It really comes down to how the Canary implements this feature, which unfortunately I have no knowledge of. I'm sure how Namco did it is completely different, as its not like the Egret easy rotate feature at all. Just take some pics when you get the cab and we will figure it out.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:38 am 


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I have Ikari that I will one day play again, and it's TATE'd "the wrong way". Could one presumably do a similar mod? It already has it's own JAMMA harness so it wouldn't affect any other games.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:12 pm 



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Should be a product on the market by now that sorts this shit out. There must be some way of taking the video signals and reversing them on a polarity level rather than a digital one.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:53 pm 


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GaijinPunch wrote:
I have Ikari that I will one day play again, and it's TATE'd "the wrong way". Could one presumably do a similar mod? It already has it's own JAMMA harness so it wouldn't affect any other games.


The flip yoke mod is to a monitor chassis connector, not the jamma loom connector. Anyway, isn't your supergun monitor in a wooden box or open frame which can be easily tated?
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:54 pm 


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i have made one such mod to my egret 2 that flips the yoke with a button press a few years ago. so far i've not had any problems with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:52 pm 


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Yeah I flipped the yoke on my Super Neo 29 so I'd have a ghetto setup for Cave verts. I was worried about it, but physically rotating the monitor was a lot more difficult.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:22 pm 



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It would nice if the current arcade shmup devs were to implement a handy flip option on the Arcade Operator's Menu selection screen. Many of the older arcade PCBs from the mid-1980s had this function implemented on the fly via dipswitch setting.

Konami A-Jax/Typhoon PCB Factoid: It's possible to flip the game to either screen setting 180 degrees (regardless of how the arcade monitor is mounted for rotating) + the ability to play on either a traditional upright cab or a Japanese sit-down cocktail table type of cab. These type of options were the standard for such arcade cabs back in the mid-1980s as they were still plently of the old-school cocktail table cabs remainants from the early 1980s. Even Williams decided to make Joust 2 a tate game considering that they still considered that there were still plenty of the traditional upright cabs with vertical mounted monitors in the American arcade scene back in the day.

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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:07 pm 


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slap_fight wrote:
i have made one such mod to my egret 2 that flips the yoke with a button press a few years ago. so far i've not had any problems with it.


Care to take a photo of this, thanks?
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:09 pm 


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slap_fight wrote:
i have made one such mod to my egret 2 that flips the yoke with a button press a few years ago. so far i've not had any problems with it.


Yeah can you please explain this mod ? :D
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:48 am 


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the long winded version explaining this has long gone, here's a speedy one.

the key point being the DPDT switches (Double Pole Double Throw).

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:53 pm 


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Damn, Slap Fight beat me to the punch about the DPDT switch. I have personally switched the yoke wires before (never bothered to install DPDT switch though, just did it permanently) and it works fine.

Here is my little bit of explanation... The DPDT switch is the same thing that is used to reverse the polarity on something like a DC fan where it spins one way with + Voltage and reverse with -Voltage.

Since there are 2 sets of 2 wires, you need 2 DPDT switches. One switch for reversing the Vertical yoke wires (yellow and green) and one switch for reversing the Horizontal yoke wires (blue and red). Here is an Instructable I found that explains the process for wiring up a DPDT switch for polarity switching:

http://www.instructables.com/id/HOW-TO% ... ersing-po/

FYI, when you flip the vertical switch, you will get a mirror image flipped in the vertical direction. It will be half right, but the text will be backwards etc... When you flip the horizontal switch the image will be reflected in the horizontal direction and it will be all correct. Interesting right?

I don't know for sure if it matters, but to be safe I would say that you should probably only flip the switches with the monitor powered down.

Btw, on my DonPachi pcb there IS a screen flip option. There aren't any physical DIP switches, but there are 2 small tact switches (1 is Reset I think, and the other is service). If you hold the service for a few seconds it will take you to a menu for configuration, inputs and some other crap. In this menu you can set the auto-fire for button3, and there is an option for SCREEN FLIP. I'm sure that isn't new info for anyone here since I'm the one that is new to collecting PCB's... At what point did CAVE stop putting this option on PCB's?
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:20 pm 


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burgerkingdiamond wrote:
At what point did CAVE stop putting this option on PCB's?


With the move to PGM hardware I guess (DOJ, ESPGALUDA, Ketsui). Thanks for the explanation guys.

@slap_fight: So you have to cut the wires on the chassis to "install" this modification? No less intrusive way then? I'll try hunting down a fitting set of yoke connectors (male+female) so I could create an external adapter instead.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:38 pm 


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emphatic wrote:
burgerkingdiamond wrote:
At what point did CAVE stop putting this option on PCB's?


With the move to PGM hardware I guess (DOJ, ESPGALUDA, Ketsui). Thanks for the explanation guys.

@slap_fight: So you have to cut the wires on the chassis to "install" this modification? No less intrusive way then? I'll try hunting down a fitting set of yoke connectors (male+female) so I could create an external adapter instead.



OOPS, I skimmed through this quickly and didn't see your earlier post where you mentioned the change @ PGM hardware.
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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:53 pm 


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emphatic wrote:
@slap_fight: So you have to cut the wires on the chassis to "install" this modification? No less intrusive way then? I'll try hunting down a fitting set of yoke connectors (male+female) so I could create an external adapter instead.


yup, they were cut right in the middle where it was convenient for me to reroute the cables to my little project box. i don't see any problems with it... if i ever sell this cab and the buyer doesn't want this box with it, i can just undo a few screws and reconnect the cables.

nb: i would not chance throwing the switch when the cab in powered up.

edit: i was also advised to use some good strong cables for this project and not so piddly ones. what you see in my photos are spare 2 pin power leads i had lying around with their heads snipped.


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 Post subject: Re: Any possibility to "flip" a cave shmup image ?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:16 am 


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Thanks for all the good info guys !
This is very helpful.

emphatic wrote:
@slap_fight: So you have to cut the wires on the chassis to "install" this modification? No less intrusive way then? I'll try hunting down a fitting set of yoke connectors (male+female) so I could create an external adapter instead.


That's definitely the upgraded version of the mod, and something i'd like to implement.


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