New Scanline generator SLG3000 - available now!

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Fudoh
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New Scanline generator SLG3000 - available now!

Post by Fudoh »

SLG3000 MASTERTHREAD

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BASIC FAQ

- What is the SLG3000 ?

The SLG3000 is a small PCB which allows you to display CRT'esque scanlines on VGA CRTs, LCDs or Plasmas displays. The SLG3000 has a VGA input and a VGA output connector, a potentionmeter to adjust the scanline density and a few dip switches to adjust to the source signal's sync polarity. An on/off switch can be attached using screw terminals.

- Who created the SLG3000 ?

Winfried Ellenbeck (winni) and Jochen Zurborg (bencao74) from Germany.

- Where can I order the SLG3000 ?

Either from Jochen's page ( http://www.arcadeforge.de/ ) or via PM to bencao74.

- How much is the SLG3000 ?

It's 49 EUR plus a very affordable shipping rate.

- What about the plexi casing seen on top ?

Jochen's offering transparent and black plexi casings starting march 2011. See pages 14+ in this thread for details. The cases are EUR 15 plus shipping. Readily assembled SLG3000 units are available as well for a little surcharge.


TECHNICAL FAQ

- Which sources will the SLG3000 work with directly ?

Everything that outputs VGA with a scanrate of 31khz or higher. This includes videogame systems like the Dreamcast or the XBox360 or emulation PCs with a standard graphics adapter.

- What about 480p from component outputs ?

If you have systems like the XBox 1, GameCube or PS2 you can transcode the signal from 480p component to VGA before feeding it into the SLG3000. Transcoders like these include the Neoya X2VGA or converters from Audio Authority or Kramer. A cheap (and good) one is the Lenkeng PSP scaler LKV7000.

- What about 480p from HDMI outputs ?

If you have a nettop for emulation which only has a HDMI output (or a system like the PS3) you can use a HDMI to VGA converter like the HDFury to feed the SLG3000.

- What about 240p or 480i from classic videogame systems ?

To "scanline" those you need an deinterlacer/upconverter/scaler between the source and the SLG3000. Refer to http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ for available machines. Confirmed to be working with the SLG3000 are:

- DVDO processors like the iScan Pro, Ultra, HD, Vp30 or Edge (Edge only with additional HDFury)
- Cinemateq processors like the Picture Optimizer (needs a little work with a sync inverter)
- Micomsoft's XRGB series of processors
- Faroudja-based processors like the Videon Omega One or the Holo3DGraph capture card.
- HDBoxPro (and clones)

- What if I don't have VGA inputs on the television set ?

You can convert the SLG3000's output either to component using a VGA to component trancoder (e.g. this one http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817707073 ) or you convert VGA to HDMI using a converter like the Gefen VGA to HDMI Scaler.

- Are the results worth the trouble anyway ?

Check the screenshots below or the dozens of digicam shots presented in this thread :)

Image

Links

German discussion @ arcadezentrum.de: http://arcadezentrum.com/forum/showthre ... -Hardware)

Early (prototype) screenshots: http://picasaweb.google.com/vomitus.rec ... 0PROTOTYP1#
Last edited by Fudoh on Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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dmauro
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by dmauro »

If it has a simple on/off switch to let is simply pass through the signal as well, I would totally pick up something like this for the 360.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

Yes, on/off as well as dip switches for 25/50/75/100 intensity as planned!
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by ZOM »

OK this is awesome news. Day 1 buy - 3pcs.
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lalilulelo
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by lalilulelo »

What does this have to do with the Flame Meister? The Flame Meister (I love saying that) is HDMI only, and this is a VGA scanline generator. At least I think it's HDMI only.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by trunk »

What happened? We went from carefully hunting for old equipment to new product releases catering to our needs.

I'm not complaining, bring it on!

When and where does this go on sale?
lalilulelo wrote:The Flame Meister (I love saying that)
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

What does this have to do with the Flame Meister?
it doesn't anything, but if the Flame Meister doesn't provide scanlines, you can still use a HDMI to VGA connection (converter) to go through such a device.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by KBZ »

instant buy yes please can't wait.

always wondered about something like this to use with a cga2vga board
=/
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by ikaruga007 »

YES! This is exactly what I've been waiting for.

Day 1 purchase if it's reasonably compact.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by THE »

Day 1 buy for my Egret 3. Chou Ren Sha 68K. with fake scanlines :D

According to the German text it's a simple analog device. It just switches every second line to black, very simple but effective, if you don't mind, that it won't look like real 15kz scanlines.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by emphatic »

Perhaps this can finally put an end to all the "this port lacks scanlines" nagging.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by xlr8d »

amazing device :shock:

nice logo ;)

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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by ZOM »

for a moment I thought they used the sgi logo font... :)
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Dave_K. »

THE wrote:Day 1 buy for my Egret 3. Chou Ren Sha 68K. with fake scanlines :D
You can already play Chou Ren Sha with scanlines using an X68000 emulator, not the Windows binary of the game.
THE wrote:According to the German text it's a simple analog device. It just switches every second line to black, very simple but effective, if you don't mind, that it won't look like real 15kz scanlines.
This is all Mame does for scanlines, and looks like regular scanlines to me on my tri-sync arcade monitor.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by KBZ »

looks like there's more than mere scanlines going on here. Aperture grill? dot mask?
=/
headlesshobbs
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by headlesshobbs »

It looks that way. Seems to be the more standard with crt television so that pans out.

The problem is that I don't think it's a transcoder device at all which is a shame because resolutions boosted by x3, x4 would do a great deal to make the scanlines more authentic like a true native display. I'm just glad this is the closest we can get so far.

I didn't know SailorSat was on that board. Too bad I don't have a german to english translator outside of google acting funny. :x
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

The screenshot were taken on a CRT without scaling. What you see besides scanlines is native to the display and not generated by the device.
...oosted by x3, x4 would do a great deal to make the scanlines more authentic like a true native display
can't agree on that. A 480p feed to a 1080p display looks closest to a native CRT image (to me). Any prior scaling adds too much sharpness.
Last edited by Fudoh on Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by headlesshobbs »

Yeah you might be right on that. I was so used to running custom overlays with my own RGB or "fake" patterns on scaled images and they were maxed on bilinear filtering. I figured if you were to use a connection of lower grade then VGA (component might be suitable), it would add the right effect needed to keep it as natural as possible.

Kingbuzzo: I took a second look at that photo album and concluded the RGB pattern is typical aperture grille. Good thing too because it maintains the Phosphor effects to make it convincing.


I just reminded myself that I could probably use this for Bangai-O and MvC2 which I asked about awhile back. Too sweet! :D
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by gundamalpha »

Any idea when is the planned launch for this device?
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by kamiboy »

THE wrote:According to the German text it's a simple analog device. It just switches every second line to black, very simple but effective, if you don't mind, that it won't look like real 15kz scanlines.
Switching every other line to black is what the XRGB does as well I believe, but why wont this look like real 15khz scanlines? I am talking on a CRT monitor of course.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by THE »

kamiboy wrote:
THE wrote:According to the German text it's a simple analog device. It just switches every second line to black, very simple but effective, if you don't mind, that it won't look like real 15kz scanlines.
Switching every other line to black is what the XRGB does as well I believe, but why wont this look like real 15khz scanlines? I am talking on a CRT monitor of course.
I was talking more about LCD/Plasma there. 31khz scan lines and 15khz scan lines do look very different on CRTs though.
On a CRT it can look like 15khz scan lines. But this depends vastly on your CRT. Good 31khz/VGA CRTs have awful scan lines, as their focus is on having a crisp, very sharp and detailed picture, those are called grade A or class A tubes.
While arcade Cabs tend to have class B tubes. For low res 2D those class B tubes look better to most people.
In the end it's just a matter of taste, it's a little bit like CD (VGA/DVI) and Vinyl (15khz)...

In other words NANAO MS9-29T > everything :P
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by emphatic »

THE wrote:it's a little bit like CD (LCD) and Vinyl (CRT)...
^^fixed (IMHO) :P
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by kamiboy »

THE wrote:
kamiboy wrote:
THE wrote:According to the German text it's a simple analog device. It just switches every second line to black, very simple but effective, if you don't mind, that it won't look like real 15kz scanlines.
Switching every other line to black is what the XRGB does as well I believe, but why wont this look like real 15khz scanlines? I am talking on a CRT monitor of course.
I was talking more about LCD/Plasma there. 31khz scan lines and 15khz scan lines do look very different on CRTs though.
On a CRT it can look like 15khz scan lines. But this depends vastly on your CRT. Good 31khz/VGA CRTs have awful scan lines, as their focus is on having a crisp, very sharp and detailed picture, those are called grade A or class A tubes.
While arcade Cabs tend to have class B tubes. For low res 2D those class B tubes look better to most people.
In the end it's just a matter of taste, it's a little bit like CD (VGA/DVI) and Vinyl (15khz)...

In other words NANAO MS9-29T > everything :P
A scanline is a thick blank space between displayed lines of graphics, correct. So an XRGB connected to any CRT displaying a 240P image will have every other line of its 640x480 resolution not display anything. Isn't that the same as the cathode electron canon skipping that line when making it pass across the screen, just like an arcade cab would when displaying native content.

So where is the difference exactly? I dont understand why A and B type monitors can make a difference in areas where nothing is being displayed. Do you rather mean that the displayed lines are more blurred on arcade monitors whereas being too sharp on a computer monitor?
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

Older 15khz CRTs make the actually visible lines bloom a bit, which causes the visible lines to appear thicker than the (black) "scanlines". On the LCD you don't get blooming, so the active lines and the black lines have the same thickness. To compensate for this, you choose 50% (or similar) scanlines, but it's not quite the same...

31khz CRT tend to bloom less, so scanlines appear stronger on those.

Unless you use very high resolutions to emulate a 240p picture (e.g. 1200p), darkening every 2nd line on a 480p picture is the best method to "emulate" scanlines.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by kamiboy »

I see, well ignorance is bliss as they say, games look fantastic enough on the CRT I am using, certainly worlds better than anything I can get on a LCD. A straight CRT monitor has its advantages in that it comes in a easy to carry container whereas arcade monitors are naked if I am not mistaken, so you have to find a big arse cabinet to put them in. Not to mention that even if I did get a arcade monitor I would have to ditch that XRGB and look for a reverse interface.

And of course, that CRT monitor cost me the exact sum of nothing, you cant beat free, certainly not when it looks this good.
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by ZOM »

I'm waiting for the day we can emulate proper scanlines including shadow mask. Add to that a VP which can simulate very fine bloom without input-lag and I'm sure the results would get pleasing enough to get rid of the bulky CRT without too much remorse.

I guess 4096 x 2160 is a start...
(but I don't know if it's enough to simulate a detailed shadow mask)
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by winni »

HI @ all!
Im Winni, the technical developer of this device.
I v had some probs with the f~~~~~ confirmationcode, but here I am!
If anyone has a question, technical, I would try to answer.
Jochen and I are ready to start the produktion of this amazing little device.
To prevent any malfunction, I would be happy to hear (read) your wishes and demands.
At this time you all can have an effekt to the details of developing.
Friendly regards from Germany
Winfried
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

Basically three things to avoid people complaining afterwards...

1. (already suggested) Use female VGA connectors on both sides of the unit.

2. (also already suggested by mail) - do the power connector as a standard molex connector just like on the UVC. For people with cabs this will avoid having to use another external AC adapter and for those who need to get an AC adapter anyway, it doesn't matter, since those with Molex connectors are easily available as well. As seen here:

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3. Nothing too special, more of a luxury problem ;) You decided for 0/25/50/75/100% scanlines via dip switches now, right ? I already hear people complaining that one setting's too weak while the next is too strong, simply because they're used to the inbetweens from other devices. What do the dips do ? Enable and disable various resistors I guess ? I would add ONE poti before or after the dips to set the "100% level". One could argue that a poti could replace the dips completely, but I feel safer with using dips than with turning a poti often. If you're going for a encased PCB, the poti could be added inside the case while the dips would be accessable outside.

Just ideas...
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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by emphatic »

Fudoh wrote:If you're going for a encased PCB, the poti could be added inside the case while the dips would be accessable outside.
This sounds very smart. This way the pot is out of the way for novice users.

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Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by headlesshobbs »

I was wondering if the dip switch setting is the only one being considered to this? I had some thoughts of a dial that can be used for adjusting the scanline quality manually rather then pre-sets which some people are complaining about.
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