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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 3:18 pm 



Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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Can I dream with a mode who treats 240p signals as 480i on framemeister? :lol:
I know, is kinda dumb but at least those 240p/480i games will be playable.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:28 pm 



Joined: 15 Aug 2015
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austin532 wrote:
Seriously, with the lack of major updates and plenty of alternatives to choose from, I think the days of the Framemeister being the king are long behind it.


Couldn't it hypothetically be possible for someone to take the firmware files and hack them to make a custom firmware to try to fix a lot of issues people have had (i.e. crappy 1080P scanlines and imrpoved 480P support)?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:34 pm 


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The firmware isn't opensource, so it would be very difficult to modify the firmware.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:54 pm 


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Japanese developers have never seemed particularly open to the idea of community involvement as some western devs know it. Would be nice to see alternate firmwares, though, for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 7:32 pm 


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NormalFish wrote:
Yeah, I think the framemeister will remain relevant for quite a while. The OSSC does good things, but it's not as versatile as the fm, nor is it as compatible. If it didn't have RGsB compatibility, I would have little interest in moving to the OSSC.

I feel like there is still tons of room for improvements with the OSSC. Marqs seems way more open to ideas and feedback than any stubborn Japanese company is. Yeah it only does 720p, yeah the de-interlacing is not as good as the FM, and yeah there is no audio over HDMI but that can all change in the future with an update or revision. The first version of something hardware specific is rarely the best.
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Framemeister 240p scanline settings: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450&start=9600


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:35 pm 


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austin532 wrote:
The first version of something hardware specific is rarely the best.

This. I haven't picked up an OSSC yet. It is awesome, but it is young. Things are going to change as it evolves, and I know that the shmups guys here can provide detailed feedback to help it grow. I am thankful for all the time marqs has put into it. I am also fine with using the FM for the time being, but I am ready for the next thing.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:38 pm 


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Quote:
The first version of something hardware specific is rarely the best.

and yet it already annihilates 15 years of Micomsoft processors - quite an achievement :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:43 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
The first version of something hardware specific is rarely the best.

and yet it already annihilates 15 years of Micomsoft processors - quite an achievement :mrgreen:


Yeah like I said earlier in the OSSC thread, it's exciting to have choices now. A few years ago when I went and read this whole thread in a single night (was a bit shorter then, but still lol), this was the only real option out there for the average user. And it's not that I've been using the XRGB Mini grudgingly or anything, it's done is job well. But there is clearly room for improvement that Micomsoft is either unwilling, or more likely unable to address.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:48 pm 


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Some people still expect a '4K XRGB'...
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:51 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Some people still expect a '4K XRGB'...


Really? What would even be the point? I would think TV's and monitors would handle 720p/1080p scaling very well considering there's little 4k content at the moment, that's just placing a heavy burden on the scaler isn't?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:09 pm 


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That's adding another scaling pass (240p -> 720p & 720p -> 2160p), which probably (although not necessarily) adds more lag. If your existing scaler can go from 240p to 2160p in one pass without adding any extra lag, that would always be preferred.

The difference in quality isn't going to matter much, even if you're doing nearest neighbour for the 240->720 and then bilinear for the 720->2160. You can try it out in photoshop or paint.net yourself, the edges of your pixels are very slightly softer, but you've still got big square blocks of solid colours for pixels. I'm not sure that you could tell the difference from couch distance unless you have amazing eyesight.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:20 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
That's adding another scaling pass (240p -> 720p & 720p -> 2160p), which probably (although not necessarily) adds more lag. If your existing scaler can go from 240p to 2160p in one pass without adding any extra lag, that would always be preferred.

The difference in quality isn't going to matter much, even if you're doing nearest neighbour for the 240->720 and then bilinear for the 720->2160. You can try it out in photoshop or paint.net yourself, the edges of your pixels are very slightly softer, but you've still got big square blocks of solid colours for pixels. I'm not sure that you could tell the difference from couch distance unless you have amazing eyesight.


I can't comment on the speed as I'm no expert there, but I'd agree with the quality from my observations with 720p>1080p on my monitor. I have good but not perfect eyesight, but I'm sitting a few feet in front of it and can't tell the difference. Which is why I suspect the OSSC might be worth a try for me, I think my monitor will handle the upscaling well, and it doesn't seem to add any perceptible lag, but I'm sure that varies.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:22 pm 


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4k is nice since it allows for perfect scaling from quite a few different resolutions, and obviously added sharpness. It'll happen soon enough, but not before 4k is standard for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:24 pm 


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pyrotek85 wrote:
What would even be the point?

Probably the point would be to definitely get rid of uneven scanlines effects and artifacts, eliminating an unknown variable - poor built-in scaling - when buying new displays.

I've also read some who think this would be a good opportunity to finally introduce something more elaborate than plain black lines, like grid/mask.

In fact they're hoping for something a PC already does running emulators, only in external scaler form to use with real hardware.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:45 pm 


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If you take a 4K display, it's 3840x2160. That's a 9x scale for 240p content. It gets to the point where you really can start to simulate the structure of the shadow mask or aperture grille and then map the scanlines onto that, taking into account how the beam changes in size and sharpness based on intensity, and the fact that the beam is round, and so produces rounded edges on sudden changes in scanlines...


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:59 pm 


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Why yes, but I wouldn't expect anything that sophisticated from an external scaler. I think it'll remain a PC w/ pixel shaders privilege for a very long time.

I'd guess people would already be quite satisfied if that potential '4K XRGB' would support just simple yet correctly used overlay effects, like it's already possible to do with MAME or Retroarch using integer scaling, at close to zero additional cpu/gpu useage and lag.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:21 pm 


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Quote:
Why yes, but I wouldn't expect anything that sophisticated from an external scaler.

I would. If a company goes for a $400+ 4K video game scaler, that's an absolute requirement.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:41 pm 


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In terms of complexity/engineering and cost, would such a machine compare to, say, your averge NUC, or previous gen console ? Or even below ?
I'm just wondering if Micomsoft have the means to develop and market something like that... EDIT: I mean the Mini was already quite expensive and still rather limited.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:49 pm 


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Quote:
In terms of complexity/engineering and cost, would such a machine compare to, say, your averge NUC, or previous gen console ? Or even below ?

if done right, it shouldn't be too hard, since you don't apply the processing to the whole frame, but just at small fragments (at least parts of it). If you want to compare it to MAME think of source pixel based overlay PNGs versus the whole HLSL concept. One's done on a very basic level, the other completely in post processing.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:02 pm 


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Let's not forget that 4K TVs start at $300, and those include an upscaler. If you're going to charge $400 for just an upscaler, it better be pretty fancy.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:21 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
if done right, it shouldn't be too hard, since you don't apply the processing to the whole frame, but just at small fragments (at least parts of it). If you want to compare it to MAME think of source pixel based overlay PNGs versus the whole HLSL concept. One's done on a very basic level, the other completely in post processing.

Oh it sound more manageable like that indeed.
Guspaz wrote:
Let's not forget that 4K TVs start at $300, and those include an upscaler. If you're going to charge $400 for just an upscaler, it better be pretty fancy.

Ha! Show a scaler like we're imagining to retrogaming-farm and they might even spit the money to buy the OLED to go with it.
I think in such niche markets today customers are more likely to pay much more for things that are genuinely awesome, rather than affordable yet half-assed stuff.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 1:00 am 



Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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Man... PAL-M compatibility is just a garbaged mess :cry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCXRFCI287U
Don't know why the framemeister is recognizing 240p as 480i. Any suggestions on how to fix this or I have to wait a new firmware? :|


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 4:06 pm 



Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 11
Hey guys
Had a bit of an issue with my XRGB mini the other day. In short, I use it as a converter to allow me to capture from CPS2 arcade boards. I have a UD CPS2 (consolised CPS2 board) that we use regularly and works flawless (the video output on that is a PS1 multi AV out via SCART). I've also captured from Versus City arcade cabs with no issue. I use a JAMMA to SCART breakout PCB, then SCART into the XRGB mini which goes to a HDMI capture card of choice.

However at the most recent event I had to capture from 2 Astro City cabinets that were linked together, and the video quality was awful. Not entirely surprising as the video signal was being split between 2 monitors and the XRGB, but I was able to get a nice output level by adjusting the A/D level. The colours an image looked fine, but it was very unstable.

Here is an example of the unstable capture. Note the constantly moving image and occasional blanking/shifting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6_HZB ... oz_k1Fv0H1

Here is the same setup but from a Versus City cabinet (still 2 monitors but I believe they have an internal video amp)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8erLvS ... SqaretcNDV

Am I right in thinking this issue is sync related? I'm using all the same gear as usual (I have an externally powered sync cleaner version of the SCART to DIN cable for the XRGB). My guess is that despite the image quality looking alright that the sync signal was too low.

Funny thing is that we had some friends running a 3rd strike tournament on the same kind of setup but using one of those generic upscalers and they didn't seem to have any issues. Stable image.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0q5HVQ_HMI

So maybe it was hardware related, but I think it was to do with a weak sync signal. Is there anything I can do about it for next time? I didn't see any options in the XRGB that would seem to help. I tried tweaking the sync level and stuff but not much difference. I was able to push it too far and make it worse, so it did have some effect.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 10:56 pm 



Joined: 01 Aug 2014
Posts: 144
Shuco13 wrote:
Edit3: Another (positive) aspect I realized is that blacks don't get crushed by scanlines anymore on RGB-inputs. This means you don't need scanline-adjusted profiles on RGB-inputs anymore.

As a small sidenote: Scanlines neither affect blacks on D-terminal input on the new firmware. So basically scanline-adjusted profiles aren't necessary at all anymore! Guess it's time to clear some space on the mini's SD-card.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 4:47 am 


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I never experienced crushed blacks when using scanlines. You have to increase Gamma and possibly Brightness to counter the darkened effect. They still haven't fixed the Black Level which is actually Contrast. That would help a lot with the scanlines.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 10:38 am 



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austin532 wrote:
You have to increase Gamma and possibly Brightness to counter the darkened effect.

No, gamma is better to be left alone or set to 0 since it does too many changes at once. On previous firmwares it was necessary to rise BRIGHTNESS by 6 to compensate the darkening effect when scanlines were activated. That's NOT necessary anymore, which is a good thing IMHO. I realized that after all my scanline-adjusted profiles had become too bright.
austin532 wrote:
They still haven't fixed the Black Level which is actually Contrast.

No, now you're mixing things up.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:54 am 


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austin532 wrote:
They still haven't fixed the Black Level which is actually Contrast.

Shuco13 wrote:
No, now you're mixing things up.

It basically does the same thing as contrast though.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 12:41 pm 



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AndehX wrote:
austin532 wrote:
They still haven't fixed the Black Level which is actually Contrast.

Shuco13 wrote:
No, now you're mixing things up.

It basically does the same thing as contrast though.

No, Contrast = White Level speaking of general terms. FM's BLACK = Black Level, FM's BRIGHTNESS = both
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:15 am 


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Another update. Looks like it focuses on the PC-8801.

Quote:
Changes and the like of the OSD menu, including the past update. Please check thorough the following contents before the update.
May 17, fixes 2016:
<CPU Ver.2.03a>
■ it was tentatively corresponding to the analog RGB signal of PC-8801mkII SR later.
The RGB input of the PC-8801 and FRAMEMEISTER, D-SUB15 pin (two-stage) → FRAMEMEISTER connected by using a direct cable, output resolution: 1920 * 1080, screen mode: When you smart x1 to match the dot clock It has been adjusted.

※ D-SUB15 pin (two-stage) → FRAMEMEISTER direct cable is available in direct shop is.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:10 am 



Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 28
Had a strange issue with my mini yesterday and this morning.

When playing Chrono Cross yesterday my Samsung TV (JU7500) suddenly started to flicker a bit and reset all the picture settings to default (including turning game mode off). This happened while changing between 240p/480i mode which requires the mini to resync, don't know if that is of any relevance here. For the record I've played 60 hours of Chrono Cross without any issues prior to this.

After fixing the settings I played throughout the rest of the day without issues, but when turning the mini on today (Chrono Cross again), the picture settings were once again reset. I've since corrected all the settings and haven't had the reset occur again, but I worry that it will recur.

Anyone know what's going on here? The TV is set to home-mode, not shop mode, by the way.


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