XRGB-mini Framemeister

[copy]

I'm late to the XRGB-Mini party, but I bought one a few months ago and finally started experimenting with it this weekend. So far I'm really pleased with the results on almost all my classic systems. They look great.

The slight exception is my Saturn model 2, which has some fairly noticeable jail bars. I can live with it, but it's not ideal of course. This is with a sync-on-luma cable from retro_console_accessories, which they recommend as the safest choice for a model 2. I tried it with both a passive SCART-to-XRGB adapter, and the powered sync stripper version, with the same results. So I have to conclude that the jail bars are unavoidable on my particular system.

(Also annoying is that my Saturn has no left-channel audio. It occurs with both my SCART cable and the original composite AV cable. I bought this Saturn brand new many years ago, but never played it much, so I'm not even sure if it's always had this problem or not. While searching I did find a couple mentions of similar problems on a couple other forums, so apparently it's not an unheard-of problem. I guess I need to open it up to see if there's a loose solder joint at the AV out.)

[FBX]

The slight exception is my Saturn model 2, which has some fairly noticeable jail bars. I can live with it, but it's not ideal of course. This is with a sync-on-luma cable from retro_console_accessories, which they recommend as the safest choice for a model 2. I tried it with both a passive SCART-to-XRGB adapter, and the powered sync stripper version, with the same results. So I have to conclude that the jail bars are unavoidable on my particular system.

Reminds me of my model 1 Genesis. It had jail bars on the blue signal due to the composite encoding process being done right next to it in the CXA chip. I ultimately had to sever the video trace leading to the chip, and it removed 100% of the jail bars on the spot. I remember some dude on Facebook argued with me tooth and nail that no such issue existed on the Genesis and that it was just my cables not being shielded, so when I linked to him youtube videos describing the CXA jail bar effect, he refused to watch them so he could remain belligerent about it. Ya gotta love the Internet sometimes.

[copy]

Reminds me of my model 1 Genesis. It had jail bars on the blue signal due to the composite encoding process being done right next to it in the CXA chip. I ultimately had to sever the video trace leading to the chip, and it removed 100% of the jail bars on the spot. I remember some dude on Facebook argued with me tooth and nail that no such issue existed on the Genesis and that it was just my cables not being shielded, so when I linked to him youtube videos describing the CXA jail bar effect, he refused to watch them so he could remain belligerent about it. Ya gotta love the Internet sometimes.

Very interesting, it certainly makes me wonder if a similar fix could be possible for my Saturn. It seems to likewise be a problem with the blue channel (e.g. the sky in Sega Rally Championship).

Amazingly, my Genesis model 1 doesn't seem to have any jail bars with RGB, though it has them in a major way on composite (especially directly connected to my TV). Guess I got lucky there.

[FBX]

Amazingly, my Genesis model 1 doesn't seem to have any jail bars with RGB, though it has them in a major way on composite (especially directly connected to my TV). Guess I got lucky there.

It's actually only certain revisions of the model 1 that have the issue. Of course I happened to get one that did, but thankfully the fix was quite easy.

[hypermuffin]

I have a question about the profiles.

I have 3 consoles connected to my XRGB-mini through different inputs (RGB, D, and S-Video), if I load a different profile for each console would they load automatically the next time when I select their respective inputs?

[NormalFish]

I have a question about the profiles.

I have 3 consoles connected to my XRGB-mini through different inputs (RGB, D, and S-Video), if I load a different profile for each console would they load automatically the next time when I select their respective inputs?

nope.

[austin532]

I have a question about the profiles.

I have 3 consoles connected to my XRGB-mini through different inputs (RGB, D, and S-Video), if I load a different profile for each console would they load automatically the next time when I select their respective inputs?

Not for RGB but D-Terminal keeps your settings for each resolution change. Something I wish they would fix with RGB. Not sure if S-Video does as well.

[copy]

I wish the profile feature was more refined. It's pretty confusing in a lot of ways, like which settings are actually saved or not.

[hypermuffin]

I have a question about the profiles.

I have 3 consoles connected to my XRGB-mini through different inputs (RGB, D, and S-Video), if I load a different profile for each console would they load automatically the next time when I select their respective inputs?

Not for RGB but D-Terminal keeps your settings for each resolution change. Something I wish they would fix with RGB. Not sure if S-Video does as well.

Thank you for the info! I hope they keep updating the firmware and one day introduce automatic loading as a feature for all inputs.

[FBX]

I wish the profile feature was more refined. It's pretty confusing in a lot of ways, like which settings are actually saved or not.

I know what you mean. I find it absurd that the profile will save all the various zoom settings, except for the most important one: Whether or not Zoom is turned on!

[Braca862]

Just curious, has anyone ever played retro consoles on TV's with the motion interpolation (a.k.a., Soap Opera Effect) on?

[austin532]

Yes and it's terrible as that feature tends to add about 80-100 ms of lag. Don't use it.

[lechu]

Yes and it's terrible as that feature tends to add about 80-100 ms of lag. Don't use it.

Can confirm. It's a neat idea, but virtually unplayable. I usually adapt to lag pretty decently, but I just can't do it there.

[tusecsy]

Just signed up to give a huge thank you to Austin and FBX for all the work they have done and are doing on the Framemeister settings. Just got my mini this week and loaded up some profiles. I am in god tier gaming heaven! Thanks again guys for all you do!

Another note, why do people say the framemeisters days are numbered? I'm probably biased since I just plunked down a big chunk of dough for it but it appears to be perfect gaming at 1080p? How does it get significantly better? I don't think 4k is going to be enough of an upgrade to justify the cost for 240p content. Hell, the 4k movies I've seen only look maybe 30% better than 1080p, maybe. Just wondering why people are saying this?

[RGB32E]

I wish the profile feature was more refined. It's pretty confusing in a lot of ways, like which settings are actually saved or not.

I know what you mean. I find it absurd that the profile will save all the various zoom settings, except for the most important one: Whether or not Zoom is turned on!

You are mistaken as the Zoom setting IS actually recorded in the profile file. Whether or not the setting is applied when loading a profile is another matter...

[RGB32E]

Another note, why do people say the framemeisters days are numbered? I'm probably biased since I just plunked down a big chunk of dough for it but it appears to be perfect gaming at 1080p? How does it get significantly better? I don't think 4k is going to be enough of an upgrade to justify the cost for 240p content. Hell, the 4k movies I've seen only look maybe 30% better than 1080p, maybe. Just wondering why people are saying this?

Says who? Micomsoft hasn't even announced a successor to the XRGB-mini for 2160p scaling. As Fudoh has mentioned, as long as Micomsoft keeps selling XRGB-mini's, they won't be inclined to create a succeeding product. The biggest issue I've found with UHD TVs is that aside from some non-gaming friendly Panasonic UHD/4k TV (no longer sold in the US), UHD TVs don't allow for a clean 2x scale of 1080p sources. It would be great to have a 2160p XRGB unit for UHD TVs, but there hasn't been anything announced. Micomsoft has typically made announcements at the annual CEATEC show, and the next one is in October. So, IF they did announce a 2160p XRGB, I would surmise it likely wouldn't be available until the second half or later of 2017 at the soonest. I pinged Kevtris a while back about 2160p driven by FPGAs, and he stated that available FPGAs are not capable of 2160p60 output. Hence, it will likely be a year or more before a successor to the XRGB mini. I wouldn't be surprised if Marqs beats Micomsoft to the punch!

[Guspaz]

The Framemeister is good, but not perfect. There are many aspects about it that are not ideal. Not all of them are practical to solve, but they remain problems.

Examples of issues or limitations with the Framemeister

- Laggy upscaling that adds around one and a half frames of extra lag in the best case
- 1080p resolution limitation (no support for 1440p or 2160p output)
- Doesn't support games that make frequent 240p/480i switches due to the absurdly long time it takes to switch
- The full/limited range RGB issues on the output
- Doesn't use it's own IR codes, and so conflicts with many HDMI switcher remotes
- Very expensive (nearly $500 CAD), particularly because there aren't any distributors outside Japan
- Poor handling/upscaling of 480p content
- Uses an unusual RGB connector that requires an adapter for both JP21 and SCART.
- Extremely complicated, some people have said it feels like they spend more time tweaking the Framemeister than playing their games

Don't get me wrong, the Framemeister is still the best choice for a 1080p upscaler available, but it's not perfect, and there are many areas for Micomsoft to improve on.

[Fudoh]

and he stated that available FPGAs are not capable of 2160p60 output.

The Lumagen Radiance Pro uses those, but they said that the FPGA cores alone in the new unit are as expensive as the complete Radiance unit in the years before (those were $4000, while the Radiance Pro is $8000).

[pyrotek85]

and he stated that available FPGAs are not capable of 2160p60 output.

The Lumagen Radiance Pro uses those, but they said that the FPGA cores alone in the new unit are as expensive as the complete Radiance unit in the years before (those were $4000, while the Radiance Pro is $8000).

Oh boy, hope the price drops within a few years lol

[RGB32E]

and he stated that available FPGAs are not capable of 2160p60 output.

The Lumagen Radiance Pro uses those, but they said that the FPGA cores alone in the new unit are as expensive as the complete Radiance unit in the years before (those were $4000, while the Radiance Pro is $8000).

IIRC, the context was for his projects (e.g. Zimba 3k, not ultra high end products). Looks like the Radiance Pro is relatively new and is still in beta. Have you found any other 2160p60 scalers? You have one for review?

[tusecsy]

The Framemeister is good, but not perfect. There are many aspects about it that are not ideal. Not all of them are practical to solve, but they remain problems.

Examples of issues or limitations with the Framemeister

- Laggy upscaling that adds around one and a half frames of extra lag in the best case
- 1080p resolution limitation (no support for 1440p or 2160p output)
- Doesn't support games that make frequent 240p/480i switches due to the absurdly long time it takes to switch
- The full/limited range RGB issues on the output
- Doesn't use it's own IR codes, and so conflicts with many HDMI switcher remotes
- Very expensive (nearly $500 CAD), particularly because there aren't any distributors outside Japan
- Poor handling/upscaling of 480p content
- Uses an unusual RGB connector that requires an adapter for both JP21 and SCART.
- Extremely complicated, some people have said it feels like they spend more time tweaking the Framemeister than playing their games

Don't get me wrong, the Framemeister is still the best choice for a 1080p upscaler available, but it's not perfect, and there are many areas for Micomsoft to improve on.

I wasn't aware of the 480p limitations, haven't quite gotten there yet. That is definitely a valid issue. Other than that I don't really see many of those arguments holding much water.

Calling the framemeister laggy is a bit of a joke, I'm super sensitive to it and don't notice it at all.

I don't care about higher than 1080p resolution I feel it's pointless.

Wasn't aware of the switching issue, what are some popular games that do this?

The price will come down over time as competition enters the marketplace, that doesn't invalidate its functionality which is really all I care about (within reason of course).

The connector doesn't matter other than no good jp21 switchers atm. The IR issue is a stretch at best. Good cables are like 20$ so that doesnt matter. And the menus not the best but I've used much, much worse, and its super easy to just download a profile for your favorite system and load it.

Just playing devil's advocate. I personally don't think I will ever have a reason to upgrade at this point. Shits pixel perfect at 1080p can't ask for much more.

[austin532]

Just signed up to give a huge thank you to Austin and FBX for all the work they have done and are doing on the Framemeister settings. Just got my mini this week and loaded up some profiles. I am in god tier gaming heaven! Thanks again guys for all you do!

Thanks, I assume you are talking about the scanline settings? Which one is your favorite?

[tusecsy]

Just signed up to give a huge thank you to Austin and FBX for all the work they have done and are doing on the Framemeister settings. Just got my mini this week and loaded up some profiles. I am in god tier gaming heaven! Thanks again guys for all you do!

Thanks, I assume you are talking about the scanline settings? Which one is your favorite?

Yes indeed, first of all your info about which scaling settings create even scanlines was invaluable in this thread. That's the one thing that had me stumped, and I feel there isn't enough info about it out there. I was messing with all the mini settings wondering why the scanlines were all misshapen and not even, had pretty much given up on them.

I like all the settings really I need to really sit down and play some more games with all of them. In particular though i like the CRT scanlines as a bare minimum effect that everyone should at least try. They really improve the jagginess and give it that nice arcadey look without interfering too much with the picture or darkening the brightness, which I find to be a problem with the thicker scanlines.

I think what FBX is currently working on with his individual settings links on his webpage combined with the same kind of thing for your scanlines would be the silver bullet/essential reading that would really get the uninitiated up and running quickly. I've worked with tech as a profession for a long time and even I found there is quite a learning curve if you don't know exactly where to look.

Hell, I think if you guys got together and did a little 5$ one time pay thing with proper bin files and easy setup guides for everything mini related, pictures, videos and all that, you'd get a ton of people (myself included) willing to pay for something like that. You could use the dough to help pay for your time (i'm sure a ton of time went into these settings), buy more obscure systems and make more perfect setup guides, etc.

[Guspaz]

I wasn't aware of the 480p limitations, haven't quite gotten there yet. That is definitely a valid issue.

I believe the framemeister treats 480p more like a video input, and doesn't support integer scaling on it? I'm not sure, I don't have one.

Calling the framemeister laggy is a bit of a joke, I'm super sensitive to it and don't notice it at all.

It's an extra 1.5 frames. On top of your display's existing lag. For my projector, that would mean 3.5 total frames of lag, as compared to 0 on my PVM. There are other devices that do 1080p scaling with only a few scanlines worth of lag, so it's certainly a nice goal.

I don't care about higher than 1080p resolution I feel it's pointless.

It means using the internal scaler on most 27" or larger computer monitors, for example, which is going to do some sort of bilinear scale. Since you're scaling 1080p to 1440p, it should still be quite sharp, but it's not ideal.

Wasn't aware of the switching issue, what are some popular games that do this?

Off the top of my head, the Saturn version of Symphony of the Night does this, so every time you open or close the menu (which you do very often in that game), the framemeister gives you a black screen for multiple seconds. There are a few SNES games that do this, IIRC? One of the Secret of Mana games? I don't recall.

The price will come down over time as competition enters the marketplace, that doesn't invalidate its functionality which is really all I care about (within reason of course).

It doesn't invalidate the functionality, but price is an important factor in the practicality and accessibility of a device.

The connector doesn't matter other than no good jp21 switchers atm.

It means an extra adapter is required. It's better to not need adapters.

The IR issue is a stretch at best.

It prevents many people from using their HDMI switcher's remote controls. It's an annoyance to many people.

And the menus not the best but I've used much, much worse, and its super easy to just download a profile for your favorite system and load it.

Most platforms don't have profiles, and it's still not at the level that the general public would put up with. It's not plug-and-play.

I'm not saying it's a bad product, just that there are things that Micomsoft could improve on in their successor product.

[Gered]

The IR issue is a stretch at best.

It prevents many people from using their HDMI switcher's remote controls. It's an annoyance to many people.

Define "many." I think I've seen people complain about this issue only a small handful of times.

[tusecsy]

I definitely agree there are areas of improvements for the framemeister, but feel most of these issues can be fixed with firmware updates. A simplified menu system with perfect built-in presets for all the systems would solve a large number of problems.

If the next version has immediate switching, no or extremely small input lag, and proper 480p handling, with the aforementioned software fix, I may be on board for an upgrade. But that's just out of my perfectionist nature, I feel we're 95% of the way there already. The only thing I really want personally is a consumer and pro model of a 5x or better jp21 auto switcher. Then I have to say I'm pretty much set for life on any system pre-HDMI.

Another side note on the scanlines thing. I really like the my life in gaming series on RGB it's a great intro course, but they are dead wrong when they say scanlines look bad on 1080p. They obviously weren't using the settings found in this thread and definitely need to change that. When I saw my scanlines weren't even in 1080p it basically affirmed this in my head and I wrote them off. Can be very confusing.

[FBX]

I wish the profile feature was more refined. It's pretty confusing in a lot of ways, like which settings are actually saved or not.

I know what you mean. I find it absurd that the profile will save all the various zoom settings, except for the most important one: Whether or not Zoom is turned on!

You are mistaken as the Zoom setting IS actually recorded in the profile file. Whether or not the setting is applied when loading a profile is another matter...

Pretty sure it doesn't save the status of ZOOM.

Edit: Unless of course you're claiming it saves it but doesn't activate it, but that reaches the same result: It doesn't update the status of ZOOM when loaded.

[NormalFish]

nother side note on the scanlines thing. I really like the my life in gaming series on RGB it's a great intro course, but they are dead wrong when they say scanlines look bad on 1080p. They obviously weren't using the settings found in this thread and definitely need to change that. When I saw my scanlines weren't even in 1080p it basically affirmed this in my head and I wrote them off. Can be very confusing.

Scanlines used to be terrible on 1080p, and were remedied (though not entirely) in a relatively recent firmware update. It's likely their video predates that.

[FBX]

nother side note on the scanlines thing. I really like the my life in gaming series on RGB it's a great intro course, but they are dead wrong when they say scanlines look bad on 1080p. They obviously weren't using the settings found in this thread and definitely need to change that. When I saw my scanlines weren't even in 1080p it basically affirmed this in my head and I wrote them off. Can be very confusing.

Scanlines used to be terrible on 1080p, and were remedied (though not entirely) in a relatively recent firmware update. It's likely their video predates that.

Scanlines in 1080p only look good with vertical integer scaling, and the most recent firmware updates seem to have taken them a step backwards where they will now only look good when the vertical zoom is set to the same dimensions as "SMART_2X". Anything above that and the INT_SMOOTH function is misaligned.

[RGB32E]

I know what you mean. I find it absurd that the profile will save all the various zoom settings, except for the most important one: Whether or not Zoom is turned on!

You are mistaken as the Zoom setting IS actually recorded in the profile file. Whether or not the setting is applied when loading a profile is another matter...

Pretty sure it doesn't save the status of ZOOM.

Edit: Unless of course you're claiming it saves it but doesn't activate it, but that reaches the same result: It doesn't update the status of ZOOM when loaded.

Check 44h and see for yourself! It's not stored in per input/res data.