XRGB-mini Framemeister

[RGB32E]

Good find. Looks like Micomsoft's shop is still selling them at the discounted price of 32,800 Yen.

Also, the XRGB-mini is now available on Amazon Japan:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-langu ... uage=en_JP (Sold by Amazon)

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-langu ... uage=en_JP (Sold by "3A Online Store")

[Konsolkongen]

Would be cool if everyone could check their SNES/SFC board revision and tell the result.

Here all know revision, I have two version myself . I tested with 2 original SHVC-010 cable (One using composite sync and the other using composite video) with the same results.

NTSC:
SHVC-CPU-01
SNS-CPU-GPM-01
SNS-CPU-GPM-02 => Darker color with ringing
SNS-CPU-RGB-01
SNS-CPU-RGB-02 => Brighter color with ringing
SNS-CPU-APU-01
SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01
SNN-CPU-01 (SNES Jr)

PAL:
SNSP-CPU-01
SNSP-CPU-02
SNSP-CPU-1CHIP-01
SNSP-CPU-1CHIP-02

PAL SNSP-CPU-1CHIP-01 has a very nice and sharp picture. There is still a hint of ghosting. Impossible to catch on camera but if you stand here in SMB All-stars and jump you can just make out a very faint shadow of Mario to the right of him:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00194.jpg

It's funny though because my friends US SNES is a SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 like RGB32E's and it has much more noticeable ghosting than this one.

[darthcloud]

Would be cool if everyone could check their SNES/SFC board revision and tell the result.

Here all know revision, I have two version myself . I tested with 2 original SHVC-010 cable (One using composite sync and the other using composite video) with the same results.

NTSC:
SHVC-CPU-01
SNS-CPU-GPM-01
SNS-CPU-GPM-02 => Darker color with ringing
SNS-CPU-RGB-01
SNS-CPU-RGB-02 => Brighter color with ringing
SNS-CPU-APU-01
SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01
SNN-CPU-01 (SNES Jr)

PAL:
SNSP-CPU-01
SNSP-CPU-02
SNSP-CPU-1CHIP-01
SNSP-CPU-1CHIP-02

PAL SNSP-CPU-1CHIP-01 has a very nice and sharp picture. There is still a hint of ghosting. Impossible to catch on camera but if you stand here in SMB All-stars and jump you can just make out a very faint shadow of Mario to the right of him:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00194.jpg

It's funny though because my friends US SNES is a SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 like RGB32E's and it has much more noticeable ghosting than this one.

Some said earlier that the H_Polarity might cause the ringing problem. It should be set to default setting. Can you confirm it was the case?

Btw I tried both Polarity setting on my GPM-02 and RGB-02 board without any change in my ringing problem.

[Fudoh]

The Edge-like ringing as seen earlier in pics in this thread is caused by lowering the V_SCALER setting too much.

[Konsolkongen]

Some said earlier that the H_Polarity might cause the ringing problem. It should be set to default setting. Can you confirm it was the case?

It's not. Ghosting also appeared when I used the XRGB-3. It is a Super Nintendo "feature"

[Fudoh]

Of course, I thought he was refering to the ringing effect discussed earlier.

[retr0gamer]

Once you set H_POLARITY, just changing it back won't remove the ringing. It changes some internal state that can't be corrected without resetting the mini to the default settings via the menu.

[darthcloud]

Just to clear confusing this is what I'm referring as ringing (might not be the right word): the reddish blur on the right side of the black line.



Sharpness set to 1, h_scaler to 5 and v_scaler to 6

Tried to factory reset the setting but didn't removed that effect.


To me RGB32E's shot are perfect.

[Fudoh]

ok, that's ghosting, not ringing (as we know it here). And that's not a Mini issue, but a SNES or cable issue.

[darthcloud]

And that's not a Mini issue, but a SNES or cable issue.

Yeah I know, I get the same thing on my XRGB3.

That why I was asking RGB32E which revision of SNES he had since his screenshot are totally free of that ghosting effect.

[retr0gamer]

I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but this post shows the quality difference of the 1CHIP:

http://sd2snes.de/blog/archives/75

[RGB32E]

There's definitely overlapping terms being used to describe many things here.

1. Ringing from the XRGB-mini
If you select the H_Polarity setting (press enter on this menu item - doesn't matter if you change the value), the XRGB-mini will add ringing to ALL sources. The only way to resolve this firmware bug is to do a factory reset (resets all settings).

Code: Select all

Repro Steps:
1. Press the "Menu" button to open the menu
2. Navigate to the "Options" sub-menu
3. Navigate to the "H_Polarity" setting and press the "OK" button

Result:
Ringing added to picture.  The only way to remove the ringing is to perform a factory reset (Menu->Options->Reset)

2. SNES Horizontal Bleeding

Just to clear confusing this is what I'm referring as ringing (might not be the right word): the reddish blur on the right side of the black line.



Sharpness set to 1, h_scaler to 5 and v_scaler to 6

Tried to factory reset the setting but didn't removed that effect.

To me RGB32E's shot are perfect.

Thanks! A one chip SNES should give you a much sharper picture like mine. Like stated before, I'm using a shortened SHVC-010 cable with UCC Polymer caps (220uF/6.3V). Sharpness should be set to 0 with the one chip. Setting it to 1 gives too much sharpness.

3. SNES Ghost Interference

Yes, the one chip does have this issue, albeit extremely minor and not noticable under normal circumstances. As mentioned by Konsolkongen, the one chip does have this issue, but it's nowhere as bad as a RGB moded SNES 2. It only seems to show up on bright fields of color, and is really hard to take a picture of unless you make the picture real fugly. I'm thinking of ordering these for the SNES and my other RGB amp projects:

http://search.digikey.com/us/en/product ... -ND/136972

It could also be caused by the RGB encoder not removing aliasing (not anti-aliasing...) components from the RGB DAC in the system (integrated in one of the ICs)... SNES is fine as is, but there's always room for improvement!

Also, different topic... Found a potential source for Saturn AV connectors! Time to make a cable that will be too thick for it's own good! I'm tempted to replace the ferrite/cap combo filters found on the sega saturn with just the ferrites above for the RGBS lines to get a sharper picture. (replace 3 leg filter with 2 leg ferrite only).

[Konsolkongen]

3. SNES Ghost Interference

Yes, the one chip does have this issue, albeit extremely minor and not noticable under normal circumstances. As mentioned by Konsolkongen, the one chip does have this issue, but it's nowhere as bad as a RGB moded SNES 2. It only seems to show up on bright fields of color, and is really hard to take a picture of unless you make the picture real fugly.

Yep, you are exactly right. I have tried to illustrate it in this picture:


I only did the ghosting on Mario and the item boxes but it would be there on all other objects as well. Only noticeable when the background is bright as RGB32E mentioned. There is also a vertical bar somewhere around the area where I have drawn it. Again it only shows on bright colored backgrounds, and it's true for all 3 1chip SNES's I have seen. But keep in mind that this image is EXTREMELY exaggerated, it really doesn't show unless you look for it on purpose

For the record, I'm using an original Super Famicom RGB cable, same as RGB32E. Although I have rewired mine for SCART pinout.

I'm thinking of ordering these for the SNES and my other RGB amp projects:

http://search.digikey.com/us/en/product ... -ND/136972

What are those? I will be ordering some stuff from Digikey soon so perhaps I should get some as well?

Also, different topic... Found a potential source for Saturn AV connectors! Time to make a cable that will be too thick for it's own good! I'm tempted to replace the ferrite/cap combo filters found on the sega saturn with just the ferrites above for the RGBS lines to get a sharper picture. (replace 3 leg filter with 2 leg ferrite only).

Hehe, I just did the same for my MegaDrive's RGB cable:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00183.jpg

Totally overkill and it didn't improve the image at all, but the sound is much better now. No noise at all on white backgrounds

[darthcloud]

There's definitely overlapping terms being used to describe many things here.

1. Ringing from the XRGB-mini

2. SNES Horizontal Bleeding

3. SNES Ghost Interference

Thanks for listing and describing all the usual issue, mine is definitely #2 and I'm glad 1CHIP snes fix this.

I personally didn't notice the ghosting issue.

[Fudoh]

I looked into the ringing bug. Guess we were both right and the solution is somewhere in the middle

The cause for the ringing on 240p sources it the V_SCALER being set to 5 (give it a try). Now, if you fiddle with the H_POLARITY setting, the V_SCALER option gets set to 5 by default, even if the slider shows something else. There's no need to reset the Mini, just enter the V_SCALER option (no matter what it shows), move the slider one to the left, one to the right and it's all fixed again.

Weird little bug...

[franjipane]

Got my Japanese Mega Drive 1 in the post today, hooked it up to the Mini with an RGB cable from http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk and I'm getting dropouts constantly. Only tested it with Bare Knuckle 2 so far, will try others shortly.

Did anyone find a solution to this?

Other than it dropping out, the picture is STUNNING!

[Fudoh]

Konsolkongen uses a capacitor/resistor combination in each of the RGB lines and the sync line. I use a LM1881. Using a LM1881 is safe on all MD revisions. Konsolkongen's solution might not work on all MD models.

[franjipane]

If I turn the Mini's sync off it just flickers a bit rather than completely cutting out every few seconds. Happens on every game I've tried, some worse than others. Except for Gunstar Heroes, which for some reason is perfect!

[Fudoh]

I know, I had the same issues with MD and PCE.

[franjipane]

It has to be fixable with firmware, and the Saturn issue, hurry up Micomsoft

[Konsolkongen]

I have just discovered something very strange. I got a shitload of games yesterday and I'm just now running through the EU GameCube games to see which games will run in 60Hz and which I can force into 60Hz or 480p using the modchip in my GameCube.

So I try Pikmin first by forcing it into 480p. That doesn't work too well as the game never boots. Then I rebooted the GameCube and hold down the B button to see if it has a 60Hz mode. I get a picture just fine and assume it's running in 60Hz. Then I look at the status screen of the Mini and I see this:


I thought this was a bug of some sort, but true enough when I switched to the Edge it does indeed run in 50Hz

Back to the Mini. I check the output information:



Hmm 60Hz output and V-sync on. Doesn't make much sense. I assumed that the Mini was doing some kind of framerate conversion to 60Hz and that the picture would be stuttering so bad it would be unplayable. My TV seems to think it's 720p60Hz as well.
But the stange thing is, it doesn't stutter too bad at all. Compared to the Edge which properly outputs in 50Hz there really isn't that much of a difference. So I'm guessing the Mini just fools the TV into thinking it's 60Hz (like it does with my MVS) and the TV just shows it anyway.

I have tried with two 50Hz games now, both with the same results. If I mess with the sync option the picture becomes all fucked up and I have to reboot the console for it to work again.

EDIT: And here is scanlines on a 576i game. Looks pretty bad:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00215.jpg

EDIT 2:
What was the difference between GAME_1 and GAME_2 mode? I got Residente Vil 4 (US) running in 480p now and you loose a lot of texture detail when you set it to GAME_1. GAME_2 looks fine, like the Edge and Optoma.

[Fudoh]

A 50 to 60Hh framerate conversion doesn't neccessarily stutter like hell. It's *very* acceptable. I used to have my TV program converted from 50 to 60Hz for years (when my first LCD didn't accept native 50Hz through VGA). On a game like Pikmin you might not notice it a all. You will notice it on 50 fps 2D games with a constant background scrolling speed, but hardly on any 3D game.

These are the same results I got with 50Hz inputs.

The manual says that the only difference between Game1/2 are the contrast and saturation settings. RGB32E mentioned that Game1/2 offer differenet low pass filters with Game1 having the stronger one.

[Konsolkongen]

I'll see if I can capture it on camera later. The difference is really quite big.

[Fudoh]

From some rough testing, Standard, Game1 and Meister mode use the stronger LPF, while all other modes use the reduced LPF. It hardly shows on 240p sources, but is visible on 480p sources. To avoid the boosted colors of the Game2 mode, using a mode like picture or natural is probably the best choice.

[RGB32E]

Here's a quick comparison between the different picture ("Image") modes on the mini. Not the greatest photography here , but it illustrates some of the differences - especially LPF intensity.

First row - Standard, Game_1, Game_2, and Meister
Second row - Anime, Movie, Natural, and Picture




Sorry for the 1MB of pix!

[Fudoh]

And what's your conclusion ? I wouldn't (and don't) bother for 240p sources.

[RGB32E]

And what's your conclusion ? I wouldn't (and don't) bother for 240p sources.

So far...

Standard > Game_1/Meister > Game_2 > Anime/Movie/Natural/Picture

I'm kinda liking Picture mode, but still like Game_2 the best. On my TV, I set Color Space to Wide (XBR8 native color gamut, not to be confused with HDMI color space) and with Game_2, set "Live Color" to OFF. The color changes with Game_2/Anime is sorta like Sony's "Live Color" setting set to Low.

[Hamburglar]

I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but this post shows the quality difference of the 1CHIP:

http://sd2snes.de/blog/archives/75

This link confuses me. I have 2 USA SNES model 1 consoles. One is a 1CHIP, and it gives an identical picture to the non 1CHIP model. However, I also have an SNES2/jr./mini, and it gives off a better picture than both SNES model 1's. How could his situation be different than mine?

[fagin]

RGB32E,
What resolution is that scanline mode using? It looks proper shite in that picture?!

[darthcloud]

I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but this post shows the quality difference of the 1CHIP:

http://sd2snes.de/blog/archives/75

This link confuses me. I have 2 USA SNES model 1 consoles. One is a 1CHIP, and it gives an identical picture to the non 1CHIP model. However, I also have an SNES2/jr./mini, and it gives off a better picture than both SNES model 1's. How could his situation be different than mine?

How did you identified you had a 1CHIP?

You took it apart right?


I ask because I saw some people saying you could identify them by looking at the eject button if the word eject was printed or molded. Or to check if the FCC info on the bottom was on a sticker or molded.
Those method are inaccurate because Nintendo started using those molded button and FCC info since 1994 with SNS-CPU-RGB-01 board.

So one could end-up with either a RGB-01, RGB-02, APU-01 or a 1CHIP-01 version with that identification method.