XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Goldfire]

EDIT: Here's an update for anyone else that might suffer these issues in the future.

The good news is, it's all working perfectly now. The bad news is, you'll have to get a different cable.

From what I've gathered, the CSYNC cable supplied by RetroGamingCables uses a sync stripper embedded in the cable to strip sync from Luma and then supply it as CSYNC to the input device (TV, PVM, XRGB, etc).

After getting their Luma as Sync cable, there are no issues at all.

During testing, I managed to revive my old 2CHIP SNES (needed a fuse replacement). This 2CHIP SNES showed no problems with either cable - albeit, it was a little blurrier compared to the 1CHIP as expected. So there was a trade off whether I had bluriness without sync issues, or a really sharp picture with sync issues.

So, in the end, all good, at least I'll have the old 2CHIP as a backup in case this 1CHIP carks it and I can use the CSYNC cable for my RGB N64.


Old message:
Hi everyone, hopefully I'm able to ask for help here, I'm sorry if this is in the wrong spot. Please let me know if I need to make a new thread otherwise.

tl;dr - I'm getting "jumps" and "shakes" on certain games that seem to be caused by sync issues on my PAL SNES via the Framemeister, S-Video doesn't display these issues. What are my options?

I recently received my Framemeister and I've been trying to get all of my old childhood games again, starting with the SNES. I have a PAL 1CHIP-01 (AU) with S/N UP17815991 that's connected to my Framemeister via a EuroSCART CSYNC cable that I purchased from RetroGamingCables:
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/CSY ... SYNC-CSYNC
I then output HDMI from the Framemeister to my PC gaming monitor. I've tried different variations of outputting DVI and HDMI with almost all of their different resolutions including changing the Sync mode from Off to Auto and adjusting the Sync Level from the default 9. By time I adjust the Sync Level to 29, I start to see larger jumps and shakes. At level 30, I lose sync entirely and end up with a rolling picture as expected. When using Auto for the Sync, it's even worse than Off.

Here is some video footage I recorded on my capture card, my capture card is only 720p/1080i, so I opted for 720p recording - notice the "sync tearing" in the middle of the screen I get on Magical Pop'n and the whole screen jumping on Chrono Trigger. I do not get any shakes or jumps on Chrono Trigger during text dialogue as you can see at the end of the Chrono Trigger video.
The odd thing is, Do-Re-Mi Fantasy does not suffer any of these issues and the cart was produced the same way as the other two games - I opened up each cartridge to verify the work done, I still uploaded a recording of that to compare.

Magical Pop'n: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9XseXZCg1I
Chrono Trigger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plAksr-b6Lk
Do-Re-Mi Fantasy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLyVL1TevYk

These cartridges are reproductions that I purchased from here:
Magical Pop'n: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Magical-Popn ... SwHnFVx0Wa
Chrono Trigger: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Chrono-Trigg ... SwOVpXWaPC
Do-Re-Mi Fantasy: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DOREMI-FANTA ... SwCGVX9aKr

So, where do I go from here? I'm obviously open to input, but I'm thinking one of the following:

1) Try a Sync on Luma cable from RetroGamingCables
2) Try an RGB bypass mod on my SNES, I'd assume with the THS7314 amp (is this even possible on a PAL SNES?)
3) Suck it up and put up with the jumps and shakes and be disappointed
4) Just use S-Video and be disappointed

I don't mind spending a little bit of money to fix this up, but I don't want to go ahead and waste money either.
I want these games to work and I don't particularly want to use S-Video as that would defeat the purpose of going RGB. If you've made it this far, thank you.

[VincentPrice]

I'm having a small issue with my Framemeister. I'm using the recommended settings for 240p from the Wiki page. No scanlines though and output set to 720p. When playing my SNES Jr (rgb bypass amp plus the component cable from HDretrovision through the D-terminal) the signal would randomly drop as if it's rescaling or I'm changing a picture setting. Sound would drop too. I didn't notice this playing Lost Vikings at all, which I played for about an hour. Street FIghter New Challengers would do this quite regularly, let's say five times in half an hour. It's quite annoying.
IMAGE_MODE = PICTURE
AUTO_SCALER = GAME
SHARPNESS = 0

ANything I'm missing in the settings? Firmware is the latest.

[FBX]

I'm having a small issue with my Framemeister. I'm using the recommended settings for 240p from the Wiki page. No scanlines though and output set to 720p. When playing my SNES Jr (rgb bypass amp plus the component cable from HDretrovision through the D-terminal) the signal would randomly drop as if it's rescaling or I'm changing a picture setting. Sound would drop too. I didn't notice this playing Lost Vikings at all, which I played for about an hour. Street FIghter New Challengers would do this quite regularly, let's say five times in half an hour. It's quite annoying.
IMAGE_MODE = PICTURE
AUTO_SCALER = GAME
SHARPNESS = 0

ANything I'm missing in the settings? Firmware is the latest.

Try playing for an hour with Sync Mode turned to "OFF" and see if it still drops.

[Fudoh]

He probably just needs to increase the sync level setting by a few clicks.

[pezmed]

Quick update to the profile package:

Code: Select all

Added a separate folder with "Deep Color Noise Reduction" profiles. These profiles have 12-bit color mode output tuned on, which has been shown to often significantly reduce background noise in the picture. However, this mode is not compatible with some HDMI switch boxes and displays, so use at your own risk of getting a blank screen after trying to load them. 

FBX, can you explain or give a screen shot of this "noise"?

I recently purchased the FM so I'm learning here.

My setup:
- Moded (RGB, S-Video, CSYNC) SNES mini
- Scart to FM 8 pin RGB
- HMDI to Capture Card
- ASUS ROG SWIFT PG279Q 27" 2560x1440 IPS

I'm using FBX 720p SNES profile.

Colors are great and picture quality is A+. Do notice there are noise lines (dancing around) in black, white or gray backgrounds. So far, that's the only place I'm noticing any noise. I was just wondering if this is what the "Deep Color Noise Reduction" is. Thank you.

[FBX]

Do notice there are noise lines (dancing around) in black, white or gray backgrounds. So far, that's the only place I'm noticing any noise. I was just wondering if this is what the "Deep Color Noise Reduction" is. Thank you.

It appears in every color, just at different levels of intensity depending on the brightness and hue. In the HDMI_SET options, there is a "Deep Color" feature, and we learned that it seems to reduce the level of noise you can see. It doesn't get rid of it completely, but often it can reduce it by 50%. The reason I have a separate set of profiles with that feature turned on is because reports came in that it was incompatible with certain hardware like HDMI switchers for example. So I provide them as a "if these work on your setup, use them" kind of thing.

[pezmed]

Do notice there are noise lines (dancing around) in black, white or gray backgrounds. So far, that's the only place I'm noticing any noise. I was just wondering if this is what the "Deep Color Noise Reduction" is. Thank you.

It appears in every color, just at different levels of intensity depending on the brightness and hue. In the HDMI_SET options, there is a "Deep Color" feature, and we learned that it seems to reduce the level of noise you can see. It doesn't get rid of it completely, but often it can reduce it by 50%. The reason I have a separate set of profiles with that feature turned on is because reports came in that it was incompatible with certain hardware like HDMI switchers for example. So I provide them as a "if these work on your setup, use them" kind of thing.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess the FM isn't perfect but I don't see this as a deal breaker as it's not really that noticeable on mine that I can see. But, I'll give these options a try to see if it helps clear it up some.

[RaphM]

Thanks for your research, activating this setting did a LOT for me.

The Framemeister seems to always have been known for creating that noise on solid colored areas (e.g. mentioned here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p1273257).
I also noticed it and played around with the "usual" settings (black level, brightness, gamma, ad level), but would have never imagined that an HDMI setting would change anything in that regard.

I used the 240p test suite for verification - the noise was most noticable in some bars of the "Color Bars" and "Gray Ramp" tests (and even on the menu background itself). Activating Deep_Color removed that noise nearly completely.

Long story short - for me personally this setting was one of the biggest perceivable improvements ever (all other settings I tried simply seemed to "push" the noise into a slightly different brightness level, while also messing with the colors).

[Goldfire]

Hi again guys, I've worked out my sync issues and posted the results in my original message.

I updated my post here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p1271550

[VincentPrice]

I'm having a small issue with my Framemeister. I'm using the recommended settings for 240p from the Wiki page. No scanlines though and output set to 720p. When playing my SNES Jr (rgb bypass amp plus the component cable from HDretrovision through the D-terminal) the signal would randomly drop as if it's rescaling or I'm changing a picture setting. Sound would drop too. I didn't notice this playing Lost Vikings at all, which I played for about an hour. Street FIghter New Challengers would do this quite regularly, let's say five times in half an hour. It's quite annoying.
IMAGE_MODE = PICTURE
AUTO_SCALER = GAME
SHARPNESS = 0

ANything I'm missing in the settings? Firmware is the latest.

Try playing for an hour with Sync Mode turned to "OFF" and see if it still drops.

This seems to have solved it, thanks! I'm keeping an eye on it though. Also set the output to 1080p since I'm not using scanlines.

[FBX]

Couple of recent notes concerning Framemister settings:

1. Voultar's new board on the SNES 'junior' revision will have proper A/D calibration using a max setting of 148.

2. Testing out S-Video on the Framemeister, I realized that the video settings are shared with composite input. As such, the Manual Filter level is optimally set at 18. I had this set to 30 by default because I had used composite video for determining the settings, but clearly a value of 18 is MUCH better looking for S-Video.


-FBX

[MetalMilitia]

Thanks for the notes FBX. This will be very helpful for folks using S-Video for N64 and GC.

[Dochartaigh]

Is anybody using this for their original Xbox for 480p games? I normally use my XRGB-mini Framemeister for 240p content but thought I'd give it a try for the Xbox (still need to test 480i from my PS2 as well)....I'm not loving how Xbox looks on it to be honest (even with the Xbox 480p profiles installed). Looks a bit jagged and pixelated to me. Anybody have any tips?

...or could my cheap Vizio 60" LCD TV (couple years old) just upscale 480p really well? I can plug it in directly but that's another 25' cable I have to hide/run from the Xbox to the flatscreen...(whereas now everything runs through the one cable going to the Framemeister).

[Fudoh]

The FM doesn't have great 480p processing. If you want to avoid the extra cabling, you could get a cheap YUV to HDMI converter, connect that to one of the FM's HDMI inputs and set the input to passthrough.

480i on the other hand is fantastic on the FM.

[ZellSF]

XRGB-mini's 480p scaling is bad, but how is it in SMART 1X mode? I think it looked a bit off, but has anyone done thorough testing? I need it as a compatibility layer for my capture card that doesn't support 480p.

[Blair]

So, after saving up for a little bit. I put in my order for an XRGB-mini Framemeister, even though I have a few other solutions available I wanted to have one just for completeness sake and just in case I needed it.

I purchased the bundle with included euro scart adapter cable. I'm assuming this will be fairly high-quality as its a micomsoft product, I've heard good things about their cables and adapters in the past. but has anyone here used it?

or will I need to get a custom made scart to mini-din adapter with sync cleaner?

these are the RGB systems and cables I will be using...

Code: Select all

Sega Genesis 2/SCD2/32x - RGB - C-Sync
Sega CDX - RGB - C-Sync
Super Nintendo (both 1-chip and 2-chip versions) - RGB - Sync-on-Luma
Sega Saturn Model 2 - RGB - Sync-on-Luma
Nintendo 64 - RGB - Sync-on-Luma
Sony PSone - RGB - Sync-on-Luma
Sony PlayStation 2 - RGB - Sync-on-Luma

any potential troubles?

[FBX]

these are the RGB systems and cables I will be using...

Code: Select all

Sega Genesis 2/SCD2/32x - RGB - C-Sync
Sega CDX - RGB - C-Sync
Super Nintendo (both 1-chip and 2-chip versions) - RGB - Sync-on-Luma
Sega Saturn Model 2 - RGB - Sync-on-Luma
Nintendo 64 - RGB - Sync-on-Luma
Sony PSone - RGB - Sync-on-Luma
Sony PlayStation 2 - RGB - Sync-on-Luma

any potential troubles?

As long as they are wired for SCART since that's the adapter you ordered, you'll be fine. Sync on luma works quite well on the Framemeister. It behaves identically to csync on the Framemeister.

[Blair]

excellent, thanks for the heads up FBX. yes all of my cables are Euro Scart wired. (I just hope Solaris packs the proper adapter cable, and hopefully they label it)

(I'm also getting the D-terminal to component adapter as part of the bundle)

[Kez]

So, after saving up for a little bit. I put in my order for an XRGB-mini Framemeister, even though I have a few other solutions available I wanted to have one just for completeness sake and just in case I needed it.

I purchased the bundle with included euro scart adapter cable. I'm assuming this will be fairly high-quality as its a micomsoft product, I've heard good things about their cables and adapters in the past. but has anyone here used it?

or will I need to get a custom made scart to mini-din adapter with sync cleaner?

these are the RGB systems and cables I will be using...

I got my FM from Solaris with the EuroSCART adapter and have had no issues, any problems syncing were easily resolved by tweaking the sync level setting. IIRC the adapter comes a sealed bag and clearly labelled as EuroSCART.

I can't foresee you having any major problems with those consoles/cables. Obviously to get 480p out of a PS2 you would need a component cable (or a convoluted chain of devices for RGB) and I seem to recall that some Saturns show interference through the FM.

[Blair]

side question ( for anyone that might know), would it be a better idea to avoid the A/D stage of the Frame Meister and just use something like the OSSC to output 480i, RGB from a PS2 digitally via HDMI to the Frame Meister? (by doing that, can I get around the FM's color noise issue?)

(i'm assuming the frame Meister supports 480i on its digital input, has anybody tried it?)

I got my FM from Solaris with the EuroSCART adapter and have had no issues, any problems syncing were easily resolved by tweaking the sync level setting. IIRC the adapter comes a sealed bag and clearly labelled as EuroSCART.

I can't foresee you having any major problems with those consoles/cables. Obviously to get 480p out of a PS2 you would need a component cable (or a convoluted chain of devices for RGB) and I seem to recall that some Saturns show interference through the FM.

thanks for the info Kez, that's reassuring. I probably won't be running any 480p sources into the Frame Meister. I have other options for that (but it's a nice extra to have). major selling point for me is the 480i processing, and secondarily the 240p processing. it will also probably make it easier to record and stream game footage with a variety of capture devices.

my main 240p solutions are the OSSC or the XRGB-1. (but I'll definitely be using all the features of FM at some point)

[Dochartaigh]

The FM doesn't have great 480p processing. If you want to avoid the extra cabling, you could get a cheap YUV to HDMI converter, connect that to one of the FM's HDMI inputs and set the input to passthrough.

480i on the other hand is fantastic on the FM.

Is the OSSC better at 480p? (I'll have to test when I get it - assuming it even works on my TV).

And I think I already have a solution to the wiring - I was already running 1 single wire from the Crosspoint to the XRGB, then splitting it for RGBs and Component (I figured splitting once wouldn't degrade the signal anything I would notice). I'll just take the Component and run it directly to my TV for the time being as the Xbox is the only system I'm running with component.

[Kez]

Is the OSSC better at 480p? (I'll have to test when I get it - assuming it even works on my TV).

It's more a question of whether your TV does it better than a Framemeister. The OSSC will digitize an analogue 480p signal and send that to your TV to be upscaled, which in a lot of TVs is superior to the Framemeister's output. It can also linedouble it to 960p but most TVs won't accept that.

[FBX]

The Framemeister adds in false contouring in 480p sources, so if your TV works well with 480p from the OSSC, it will be the better choice.

[ZellSF]

So I tried capturing some gameplay footage from a Wii. I have an early Wii that I connected to the XRGB-mini with the following settings:

HDMI_OUTPUT: 1080_60p
IMAGE_MODE: PICTURE
SCREEN_SET: SMART_X1
OUTPUT_COLOR: RGB
OUTPUT_RANGE: FULL

I connected the XRGB-mini to a Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K and used OBS to capture. I set it to scale using bilinear filtering to 1920x1440 and output at a 5000kbps bitrate. This is the result I got:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NiHXQE3yJI
Any room for dramatic improvement anywhere except the bitrate and bilinear filtering (the game does not look good with sharp scaling)?

[ChuChu Flamingo]

Hi again guys, I've worked out my sync issues and posted the results in my original message.

I updated my post here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p1271550

Kinda weird why would Retro Console Cables be using a sync stripper on sync on composite to make it CSYNC (composite sync) instead of Luma or grabbing CSYNC natively and attenuating it. I am sure there is reason why, but the only ones that I can think of is for N64 RGB Mods, PAL GC and 1CHIP-03 (which can be modded back to have it) which lack native CSYNC as far as I know. Also if im reading this right a PAL SNES outputs 12v on the Csync line so that makes sense not to use CSYNC cable on it natively.

Nice to see the fix was easy. I wonder if the sync stripper output on your old cable was TTL level and that was the reason why your framemeister didn't like it.

[Kez]

Also if im reading this right a PAL SNES outputs 12v on the Csync line so that makes sense not to use CSYNC cable on it natively.

You've hit the nail on the head there as he states he is using a PAL SNES, and RGC's PAL CSYNC cable says that it has a built in stripper on the store page.

[Blair]

The Framemeister adds in false contouring in 480p sources, so if your TV works well with 480p from the OSSC, it will be the better choice.

just got my Framemeister in the mail today, good golly it has a lot of options. the granularity in control is almost a little bit intimidating ( almost ). I've been testing out a few of your awesome profiles FBX, although my setup is a little different at the moment. still waiting for my N64 RGB cables. (the post office is a bit bogged down I assume thanks to all the crazy weather). right now I'm using Nintendo 64 via S-video. the 4x profile didn't work (the screen was crazy zoomed in). But the 5X profile seems to work perfectly. I also tried your ps2 profiles (via RGB scart). Both the sharp and the less sharp versions, I think I prefer the sharp version (but I like them both). Although the gameplay window is a bit small. (is the overscan setting supposed to be at 90?)

as awesome as the de-interlacing is it still has some issues with a few games I've tested. some effects still aren't properly de-interlaced. like the flashing life bars and win counter in original Virtua fighter 4. the game mode on the Edge Green/VP50 actually does a better job in that regard but the Framemeister still produces an excellent picture with 480i 60hz fast motion elements.

[Fudoh]

Blair, congrats on adding the FM to your lineup. You'll learn to enjoy it.

regarding the N64: there are N64 revisions out there which cause the FM to add the same false contouring to the N64's RGB image as it does with 480p sources. My particular N64 for example. (http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg the top images use a setting that's usually great for 240p sources, while on the lower images the image is blurred horizontally using the FM's settings)

as awesome as the de-interlacing is it still has some issues with a few games I've tested. some effects still aren't properly de-interlaced. like the flashing life bars and win counter in original Virtua fighter 4. the game mode on the Edge Green/VP50 actually does a better job in that regard but the Framemeister still produces an excellent picture with 480i 60hz fast motion elements.

yes, the Marvell won't handle those 60Hz flicker effects properly, but hey - there's a night and day differentce in sharpness between a 480i image processed on the FM and the DVDOs as well as in the details that are retained in the background. The really outstanding point is that you get overall results from 480i on the Mini that are comparable to 480p on a CII. Zero blurring which all other processors add. And the DVDOs pretty much revert to single field interpolation once you use forced video deinterlacing and you get hefty motion. The FM in comparison is breathtakingly good.

And as much as a respect FBX's work on the profiles, I would recommend to start out without them in order to get a grip of the controls. It's a bit much at first, but it's not as complicated as it seems.

[FBX]

regarding the N64: there are N64 revisions out there which cause the FM to add the same false contouring to the N64's RGB image as it does with 480p sources. My particular N64 for example. (http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg the top images use a setting that's usually great for 240p sources, while on the lower images the image is blurred horizontally using the FM's settings)

Have you tried the sharpness = 1 trick to 'deblur' the N64 games that have blur active? It does a pretty good job of it I have to admit. Try it out with the usual H_Scaler: 5 and V_Scaler: 6 and see how it goes. If it gets a little too sharp, you can offset it by increasing the H_Scaler value.

[Dochartaigh]

I'm comparing my OSSC to my XRGB-mini right now (don't really if I should post here or in the OSSC topic...) but I had my first drop-out on both units today: can't play Sonic 2, for Sega Genesis (High Def Version 1, NTSC, RGBs), 2-Player (screen goes blank or garbled on the bottom - sound still plays). I saw this mentioned on page 20 of this topic, but nothing after that (well, for the 10 pages after it I searched).

XRGB-mini is on 3x FBX profile. OSSC I tried 2x-5x and same thing.

Any ideas? Is this going to happen on different games as I'm testing out both upscalers? (I play NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1/2, Original Xbox - nothing else).

**EDIT** So it seems like 2-player mode on Sonic 2 is in 480i? (which I didn't even think the Genesis could output...). But even when I use the PS2 profile which is for 480i, the same thing still happens. Any other games/modes which aren't compatible with these upscalers? Is somebody keeping a compatibility list somewhere? I think PS1 commonly switches between 240p and 480i for menus and such, right? Any problems to watch out for? Things to try to minimize issues like these?