XRGB-mini Framemeister

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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Fudoh »

Or - instead it doing it blindly - just connect the PS2 via composite and adjust the menu settings then. Composite video works with both settings just fine.
jarop
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by jarop »

Thanks for the tip, it was in fact set to component. For a laugh I changed it to RGB and then those instructions came in handy to reverse it lol.

Unfortunately it didn’t fix the issue, I doubt it’s the cables but maybe? Any other suggestions?
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Fudoh »

Do you happen to have a modded PS2? There was a common movie DVD fix (usually done with the majority of mods done here in Europe) that prevents PS2 to switch into component mode. Even with the menus stating YPbPr the system keeps outputting in RGB instead.
jarop
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by jarop »

Funnily enough, I do have a modded PS2, so it could be that actually. I could have sworn it worked on the FM many moons ago but I could be mistaken, I'll crack it open and see how I can go about getting the mod out. Don't really need it with the freemcboot being around
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VEGETA
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by VEGETA »

Well, I checked the price of this device and it is 1200$ on Amazon which is absolutely insane! more moderate pricing on ebay seems to be about 700$ which is also very pricey!

I wonder do people actually willing to pay all that for a retro consoles scaler??

I checked these prices about 2 months ago when I wanted to buy a scaler but eventually went for OSSC for about 100$. I am just curious if people are actually paying 700$ for such niche devices.. especially that there are many alternatives now.

thanks!
fernan1234
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by fernan1234 »

No one will pay that Amazon price. People buying those on eBay have to be people who have been living under a rock and somehow don't know about the strictly superior options available now, or maybe someone who casually found an old Youtube video about it and rushed to get one. Over time that list of people will dry up for sure though.
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VEGETA
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by VEGETA »

fernan1234 wrote:No one will pay that Amazon price. People buying those on eBay have to be people who have been living under a rock and somehow don't know about the strictly superior options available now, or maybe someone who casually found an old Youtube video about it and rushed to get one. Over time that list of people will dry up for sure though.
this is how I feel too but still the new OSSC Pro will be about 600$, so maybe yes, people are willing to pay. Niche markets are the best in this regard.

As of options, maybe the 5x is the one comparable to framemeister in terms of features but at 300$ you cannot complain.
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kitty666cats
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by kitty666cats »

Yeah, I am honestly surprised that units are still going for *anything* over $300 - even FM’s without the box/any video cables or adapters are consistently selling for quite silly amounts! I DID notice there has been a slight dip in the price since GBS-C started getting widespread attention and premade units/RT5X released/OSSC Pro and PixelFX Morph were announced.

I do still have an odd, morbid curiosity RE: getting my hands on an original XRGB-2, a small interest in the 3 & quite a bit of curiosity about the DISPL (the very rare unit, not to be confused with the DISPL TV). But I wouldn’t spend more than, like, $100 USD on any of those… in other words, I’ll never have one xD

I made a post about it in the Dido Jr thread, but the Dido LT is actually a pretty awesome up/down scaler for retro consoles. I got one for cheap and it’s got very low lag / accepts 240p RGBHV (so one needs an Extron interface etc for consoles) / can output 1440p with reduced blanking / can downscale to 240p! Unfortunately, I got the last cheap unit on eBay from a seller who had several… hopefully more pop up someday!
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by TooBeaucoup »

I sold my Framemeister back in December for $500 on Ebay and I thought that would be about the peak. But, the fact is, the FM is a well-known device and many people will likely end up watching older videos and not realizing there's newer, more affordable devices available. So when these people see the ridiculous $1000 prices in some places, they'll check Ebay and see some listed for $500-$700 and think it's a steal. Not everyone does as much research as they should.
A Murder Of Crows
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by A Murder Of Crows »

Fudoh wrote:Regarding the scanline bug you're seeing: this sounds like a common problem the FE can exhibit with a few sources. It's most common with a Neo Geo as your source, but can show on other sources as well. The fix is to increase (or was it decrease?) the vertical size by one click (that's the V_WIDTH option). Give it a try!

BUT I have to say that I can't see it on your screenshots - are you sure that these are the right ones?
yeah the screenshots are the right ones. i think i figured out the problem.

i'm expecting the lines to look correct based on the content on the screen no matter what resolution i'm viewing that in, because it is a window to the full sized content. it appears however that if i blow up the screenshot (and therefore the video) to the proper 720p resolution, the scanlines actually look correct.

this is a bit mind boggling, but i suppose there is nothing actually wrong when i look at the results in the proper resolution. That said, i'm concerned about how this would pan out if i'm running a stream or recording in something like OBS. My goal has always been to try to get the video output of my xrgb mini to as closely replicate the view on a CRT as possible, and to me that means scanlines. I'm going to have to run some tests to see what the output looks like when fully set up, but i totally thought that the lines should look good in scale with whatever resolution the viewer uses.
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Kez
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Kez »

Unfortunately if you're streaming or producing video content, scanlines are not a good idea. If you look at people who make videos even testing and demoing devices with scanlines, they only really show the scanlines zoomed in because the compression and scaling that will inevitably happen does not play well with scanlines at all.
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VEGETA
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by VEGETA »

it is nice to see people trying to get more info before buying but still the upcoming scalers (OSSC Pro and Morph) will be +500$... even though 5x exists for 300$ let alone original OSSC for 100$. original OSSC cannot be compared to these upcoming ones but the 5x does. still, why would people be interested in them? I mean, why would you buy an OSSC pro or Morph while 5x exists for 200$ less.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Fudoh »

because the feature set on the 5X isn't complete. Every new device might takes us closer to a "complete solution". But as long as I can argue for some specific additional processor to an existing 5X setup, there's room for improvement.
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VEGETA
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by VEGETA »

Fudoh wrote:because the feature set on the 5X isn't complete. Every new device might takes us closer to a "complete solution". But as long as I can argue for some specific additional processor to an existing 5X setup, there's room for improvement.
well, you seem to have a valid point. However, can you define "complete solution"? I mean what is missing from 5x and similar devices currently available? like the extra processors needed and so on. Don't you think that 600$ (or even 700$ if things went extra crazy, even 500$ if went easier) is just too much for video scalers and won't be attracting anyone to buy?
Don't get me wrong, I am hyped for OSSC Pro and Morph... I have an original OSSC that I am happy with but won't upgrade until all these devices are available to compare with each other. One thing is certain though, which is IMHO no need to buy a framemeister now.

For me, original OSSC takes component and SCART. I do have other consoles without scart or component but this is my fault since I didn't get cables for them. Will be more than enough for now despite PS2 (my 100% of the time spent playing) doesn't look good on original OSSC and maybe considered its weakness.
Sirotaca
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Sirotaca »

VEGETA wrote:the upcoming scalers (OSSC Pro and Morph) will be +500$
Where are you getting that? The only pricing estimate I've seen for the Morph was that it was expected to be around $350, and the OSSC Pro would be $350-500 depending on the case and a few other factors. If the Morph is as good as it sounds on paper, it'll be easily worth an extra $50 over the RetroTINK-5X. The HDMI input alone is a huge deal.
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VEGETA
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by VEGETA »

Sirotaca wrote:
VEGETA wrote:the upcoming scalers (OSSC Pro and Morph) will be +500$
Where are you getting that? The only pricing estimate I've seen for the Morph was that it was expected to be around $350, and the OSSC Pro would be $350-500 depending on the case and a few other factors. If the Morph is as good as it sounds on paper, it'll be easily worth an extra $50 over the RetroTINK-5X. The HDMI input alone is a huge deal.
Hmm I am sure I've seen it in the threads, someone said ossc pro could be in the range of 350-550$, the morph said the goal is 350$ but it is expected to be more.

HDMI input for retro gaming? well, maybe you mean PS3 and Xbox 360 input then scaling it to bigger resolutions or even de-scale them to say 240p? it is a nice feature for sure but for most people they just hook these consoles via their own HDMI direct output.

You've got to factor everything when it comes to retail price, I mean the designers have to get enough profits to be able to stay in business, not just say 50$ extra price or so. A rule of thumb is 2.5 times the manufacture cost but it is going to be very hard to follow this here as it will easily get out of hand. cost of manufacture is going to be a lot. it is mentioned that ossc pro fpga price is about 110$ and video digitizer is probably 60$, other HDMI ICs are easily +20$ a piece... yes quantity will help reduce this but still the cost is high. Maybe the designers really aim to get very minimal margin, just enough to sustain production overtime.. we'll see. Morph is going to use even more expensive FPGA, I know Xilinx stuff is pricey and the designer mentioned he wants a powerful one... Xilinx is like a pharmacy, everything is pricey xD.

This is why I don't set my expectations in <500$ range, I hope I am wrong though. I guess their release time is before the end of this year right?
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pegboy
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by pegboy »

What are the best settings for playing a PS2 480i game (currently Contra Shattered Soldier) and up-scaling to 720p? I can't capture 1080p at 60 fps so I'm using 720p.

I currently have:
IMAGE MODE = Natural
H_SCALE = 7
V_SCALE = 5
Sharpness = 1
SCREEN SET = STANDARD (should I use Natural2 instead?)
ZOOM = OFF

It looks pretty good as is but I was just wondering if anyone else was doing this.
Sirotaca
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Sirotaca »

VEGETA wrote:You've got to factor everything when it comes to retail price, I mean the designers have to get enough profits to be able to stay in business, not just say 50$ extra price or so.
I assume the designers would have taken all that into consideration when stating their pricing expectations.
VEGETA wrote:HDMI input for retro gaming?
Yes. Think GameCube, Wii, N64, Dreamcast, GBA, NES, hopefully SNES in the future, etc. These consoles have HDMI output solutions available, but their scaling and deinterlacing capabilities are limited compared to what's promised by the Morph and OSSC Pro. Besides HDMI input, take a look at the roadmap for the Morph and you'll find there's a ton of juicy stuff in there. Full 4:4:4 processing pipeline, free scaling, rotation, gamma correction, smoothing filters, analog output, network control. Not all of those are going to be relevant to every user obviously, but it's a lot of extra functionality for $50 more, and it's all stuff that's going to be important to someone's setup.

The RetroTINK-5X is fine for what it is, but it's really targeted at a mainstream audience with only a few common consoles and no need for advanced features. There's still plenty of room for higher-end products.
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VEGETA
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by VEGETA »

I assume the designers would have taken all that into consideration when stating their pricing expectations.
yes but they also didn't give final precise price, just estimation.
Yes. Think GameCube, Wii, N64, Dreamcast, GBA, NES, hopefully SNES in the future, etc.
I guess these are better off played by native RGB since they will need expensive internal mods for HDMI. dreamcast outputs native VGA which is very good on its own.
Besides HDMI input, take a look at the roadmap for the Morph and you'll find there's a ton of juicy stuff in there.
I looked into it and this is why I am saying the price could be bigger than what you expect. it uses top end of every category, even the MCU is top level. Adding a video DAC also increases the price..etc. therefore, either the designer himself enlighten us on the approximate price or we just keep guessing and wishful thinking.
free scaling,
you mean instead of picking already-set-resolution such as 320x240... you get to type your own custom resolution?
rotation
to rotate vertical shmups to be horizontal? not so important feature but nice to be there.
The RetroTINK-5X is fine for what it is
I am confused, I keep hearing that this 5x has ALL the feature that exist, but someone else like you says otherwise. Therefore I am gonna stick with my ossc until all new scalers are out and reviewed.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Sirotaca wrote:Yes. Think GameCube, Wii, N64, Dreamcast, GBA, NES, hopefully SNES in the future, etc. These consoles have HDMI output solutions available, but their scaling and deinterlacing capabilities are limited compared to what's promised by the Morph and OSSC Pro.
The DC Digital, PS1 Digital, NES HDMI kit and N64 HDMI solutions already scale up to 1080p, (1200p for N64 and PS1) and do it incredibly. What benefit would you see by running those into a scaler? They all scale very well and produce virtually perfect digital pictures. GameCube and Wii, maybe. But, even still.. Pure digital 480P already looks really nice into a quality HDTV that handles 480P well. Running those two into a scaler is not going to make the picture look native 1080p or 4k. Make it look better? Sure, a little. But, not to the point where I'd call having an HDMI input some feature that the retro market is in desperate need of.

I'm genuinely curious what people are expecting to see with an HDMI input. The N64 is an ugly mess no matter what you do. No amount of scaling is going to fix that, especially past what the current HDMI mods already do. Dreamcast games are fairly basic in visuals compared to these days. The razor sharp 1080P output we already get out of the DC Digital is not going to be transformed into some religious experience when run into a scaler. PS1 Digital? Same thing. Those pixels aren't getting any sharper than that crystal clear, perfect 1080p/1200p it produces. The NES with an HDMI mod, NES visuals are typically so simplistic most of the time, scaling an already razor sharp 1080P image even further is not going to reveal more detail or sharper pixels. The GameCube and Wii? Hell, there's plenty of footage on YouTube of people line doubling those to 960p and the improvement is extremely minimal. If you showed someone a dozen different sets of footage between the native 480p and 960p, I don't think anyone would be able to guess which is which 100% of the time.

I mean, I have no problem with people who want it, it just seems rather redundant to further scale digital signals that are already being scaled incredibly well. I've seen a few people act like an HDMI input port is akin to Jesus coming back and I think people's expectations are pumped a little high for what kind of real-world visual improvements our eyeballs will realistically be able to perceive. In my personal opinion, scaling these HDMI modded consoles further with a scaler is akin to one guy using a Bluray player with an Amazon Basics HDMI cable and another guy coming along and swearing that his Bluray player picture quality shows better colors and a sharper image because he's using a Monster Cable brand HDMI cable. But, that's just me. I've ran my GameCube via component and HDMI adapter straight into my TV, into my Framemeister, into my OSSC and into my Tink 5X and I think they all turn in comparable results within such a margin of error that if you showed them all to 20 people, nobody would be able to decide which one looked the best. And I'm by no means saying the Morph and OSSC Pro won't be amazing. Hell, I'll probably be buying both even though I don't need them, just like I do with every other retro device. But, I'm not sure what kind of alien technology some people are expecting them to have that's going to increase picture clarity in digital signals by 200%.
fernan1234
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by fernan1234 »

I have a ton of reasons to be excited about these new scalers having HDMI inputs, but too lazy right now to type them out. Just trust that there's people who've run into several situations where this would be a godsent.
Sirotaca
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Sirotaca »

VEGETA wrote:I guess these are better off played by native RGB since they will need expensive internal mods for HDMI. dreamcast outputs native VGA which is very good on its own.
Cheaper, certainly. But not better.
VEGETA wrote:to rotate vertical shmups to be horizontal? not so important feature but nice to be there.
More for playing vertical shmups, or other arcade games, without having to physically rotate your TV. Given the forum we're posting on, I'd wager that's a pretty big deal for a lot of people here.
TooBeaucoup wrote:The DC Digital, PS1 Digital, NES HDMI kit and N64 HDMI solutions already scale up to 1080p, (1200p for N64 and PS1) and do it incredibly. What benefit would you see by running those into a scaler?
I can think of several. Aside from the PS1Digital, none of those support motion-adaptive deinterlacing. Sure, most N64 games are 240p most of the time, and most GameCube and Dreamcast games support 480p, but there are enough exceptions for it to still be an issue. The Hi-Def NES doesn't support interpolation, so you're stuck with either an inaccurate aspect ratio or uneven pixel sizes resulting in shimmering. As for the GameCube and Wii, well, I'll just say I strongly disagree that the difference between 480p and 960p is at all difficult to notice. You could also use non-integer scaling to hide the black bars at the top and bottom of most games and fill more of the screen. GBA games stand to benefit a lot as well, since a 9x scale will fill the screen at 1440p. The ability to upscale 720p HDMI would also be very welcome for things like PS3 games (maybe using the smoothing filter?), the various classic mini consoles, the RetroUSB AVS, etc., since a lot of TVs do a rather poor job of scaling 720p on their own.

Maybe none of this matters to you at all, but there are plenty of us who are excited about the possibilities.

Anyway, this is off-topic, so I'll leave it at that.
strayan
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by strayan »

TooBeaucoup wrote: I'm genuinely curious what people are expecting to see with an HDMI input.

Personally:

- downscaling 720p from snes mini classic and ultraHDMI for use on 15khz CRT
- line doubling 720p from an older PC/Mac for use with a 1440p monitor
- line tripling 480p from ultraHDMI and gcvideo to 1440p
Last edited by strayan on Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fernan1234
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by fernan1234 »

Something that's missing so far from this HDMI input discussion is its pairing with analogue output, which the Morph will have as well. In other words, HDMI input with analogue output on retro gaming scalers opens up an entire world of possibilities for those using analogue displays.
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VEGETA
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by VEGETA »

fernan1234 wrote:Something that's missing so far from this HDMI input discussion is its pairing with analogue output, which the Morph will have as well. In other words, HDMI input with analogue output on retro gaming scalers opens up an entire world of possibilities for those using analogue displays.
you will find people start fighting over what type of analog signal it should be. I bet the designer picked VGA RGBHV but other people will start demanding normal RGB with CSYNC, the other group will require component...etc.
fernan1234
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by fernan1234 »

VEGETA wrote:you will find people start fighting over what type of analog signal it should be. I bet the designer picked VGA RGBHV but other people will start demanding normal RGB with CSYNC, the other group will require component...etc.
Alright, who cares? They can get an adapter.
What matters is the functionality and possibilities that the combination will offer, should be obvious why it's exciting.
strayan
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by strayan »

VEGETA wrote: you will find people start fighting over what type of analog signal it should be. I bet the designer picked VGA RGBHV but other people will start demanding normal RGB with CSYNC, the other group will require component...etc.
Please read about the morph:

Built in video DAC

RGB/YPbPr output through a VGA/DSUB15 connector.

https://www.pixelfx.co/content/morph_roadmap.html
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Larrs888
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Larrs888 »

Hi all,

I recently hooked up my PS1 and Framemeister again and am using 720p output for those nicer scanlines. I wanted to ask about aspect ratio, should I be using standard or normal2 mode? I’ve noticed the PS Classic aspect ratio is the same as Normal2 on the Framemeister, which slightly wider (maybe not best comparssion but it’s have I have to compare). Any ideas what the correct aspect ratio setting for proper 4:3 should be at 720p?

I have used the FBX 720p profile and it uses the standard narrower aspect ratio, is this the correct setting?

Many thanks
jarop
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by jarop »

An update on the PAL PS2 woes:
I ran the following tests on my chipped PAL PS2 and think that neither the mod chip nor any of the cables are the problem. Tested:
Component straight into the TV -> fine
Composite into the FM -> fine
Component into the FM -> Gives something resembling a signal, kind of? https://youtu.be/nyDvJ0RWivs

Re: the component to D-terminal cable, I actually thought that was the problem initially and that was the first thing I replaced, but this is the same output with both of the cables I am holding so I think it's probably an FM setting I am missing. I've trawled the forums but haven't had any luck with any of the posted PAL profiles I've found - Any suggestions on what I should check first based on the current output?
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VEGETA
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by VEGETA »

hello,
I have a weird request if possible.

I need someone to take high quality photos of the framemeister board, especially the IC labelled as ADV... by Analog Devices. Then measure using multimeter where does the RGB signals are connected to this ADV IC, on which pins. I am thinking of making a device which uses a similar IC but must know where RGB signals are connected.

thanks and sorry for weird request.
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