XRGB-mini Framemeister

[forza11]

Hi,

new on the forum and recently also owner of a framemeiser. I have most of my consoles succesfully connected but i'm having 1 issue that i can't resolve. My Wii is connected via component, but if i set the output anything above 480P 60hz it introduces horizontal scanlines which i don't want. 480P displays fine. Any idea what to do?

[andykara2003]

I played Majora's Mask just last week on a real N64 and CRT and it looks good.

Good to hear - can I ask what CRT you're using?

[blizzz]

I'm using a 21" B&O MX4000.

[andykara2003]

The perfect display for N64. If people generally played it on a TV like this there would be a lot fewer complaints.


How does it compare to the XRGB mini + N64?

[TrendyNinja]

Well I'm back to being unable to get a picture using my NTSC rgb modded N64 again. My method (strange though it was) of connecting the offical Xbox scart lead, then disconnecting and re-connecting the N64 scart lead to get a solid stable picture has stopped working.

I've absolutely no idea as to what is going on here, is anybody able to help at all?

Do I need to purchase one of these and opt for the Luma Sync?: http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/supe ... -sale.html

[BuckoA51]

It's likely your RGB cable at fault, what cable are you using at the moment?

[TrendyNinja]

The one for the Framemeister I've used the EuroSCART to Framemeister XRGB Mini Converter. Which will give a picture if manually adjusting the sync level to about 14 but will not remain stable.

I've tried 2 scart leads with the N64, one was the official Nintendo Gamecube scart and the other is some 3rd party scart lead.

I've also got the XRGB Mini with built in Sync Stripper but that gives no picture whatsoever and no amount of adjusting the sync level will give a picture, just a blue screen. Although there is sound.

[blizzz]

I have, however used these settings to give the N64 a "CRT blur" enough to where I'm really happy with it:

Image Mode: Picture
Auto_scaler: Disabled
H-Scaler: 15 (I know this seems high, but try it. Notice the nice bump between 14 and 15 as well)
V-Scale: 6
HDMI Output: 720p
V-Line: On (scanlines enabled)

I did a quick test with the N64 today. The settings that Rongolian suggest are way too blurry and ruin text and icons. The best settings that I could find is to use 480p output with scanlines and a H_SCALER value of 10 or less depending on the game. I also used the 'Live Color' setting of my TV for Majora's Mask to make the colors more vibrant which looks nice. For Super Mario 64 it's too vibrant though.

720p output looks best with H_SCALER 13 on my TV. You can also adjust it a bit with the sharpness setting of the TV.

[Windfish]

The perfect display for N64. If people generally played it on a TV like this there would be a lot fewer complaints.


How does it compare to the XRGB mini + N64?

Can the set be found in the US?

[andykara2003]

Not sure - a 21" Trinitron would be just as good though - and quite a bit more vibrant. A little used one (i.e. only been used in a guest room etc.) will be quite a bit sharper than a well used one.

[austin532]

Even using the recommended settings in the Wiki, 480i PS2 is still a blurry mess. I was playing Street Fighter Alpha anthology and even turning the in game sharpness up its blurry, maybe I'm just used to the games in 240p Saturn glory but damn... is this the best we can do with 480i content?

Pics from Street Fighter Alpha 2/Zero 2 from Street Fighter Alpha/Zero Anthology in 480i using recommended Mini settings except output resolution is in 720p and scanlines are on. This game has a selectable Blur Filter and Sharpness setting.



480i - Blur Filter OFF, Sharpness 0





480p - Blur Filter OFF, Sharpness is grayed out not selectable.





There is definitely a difference between the two. IMO the game looks messy and is not scaled right in 480i. I'd even go as far as to say it looks slightly better with the Blur Filter ON as it hides the typical flaws from being converted from 240p to 480i. Despite the fact the the Mini is soft with 480p games, the game looks much better and closer to it's native resolution when you enable 480p by holding X and Triangle before it boots.

[broken harbour]

I didn't realize you could force 480p on the game. I wonder if that's also the case for the other SF anthology on PS2.

[austin532]

I have, however used these settings to give the N64 a "CRT blur" enough to where I'm really happy with it:

Image Mode: Picture
Auto_scaler: Disabled
H-Scaler: 15 (I know this seems high, but try it. Notice the nice bump between 14 and 15 as well)
V-Scale: 6
HDMI Output: 720p
V-Line: On (scanlines enabled)

I did a quick test with the N64 today. The settings that Rongolian suggest are way too blurry and ruin text and icons. The best settings that I could find is to use 480p output with scanlines and a H_SCALER value of 10 or less depending on the game. I also used the 'Live Color' setting of my TV for Majora's Mask to make the colors more vibrant which looks nice. For Super Mario 64 it's too vibrant though.

720p output looks best with H_SCALER 13 on my TV. You can also adjust it a bit with the sharpness setting of the TV.

Ronglian's settings are pretty close to mine. I guess we have the same taste when it comes to recreating what we remember CRT blur looking like. I have H-Scaler set to 14 and V-Scaler set to 2 while outputting in 720p with Scanlines A at 87. I've done a side by side comparison and this looks pretty damn close to my CRT using S-Video with the PS1.

[blizzz]

There's a big step between 14 and 15, so 14 is a lot closer to 13. I've got my CRT and LCD next to each other and 15 is just too blurry. 14 is okay, but I went down another notch.

[Ripthorn]

Hey guys, can I hook a Naomi board on my framemeister with a vga to hdmi adapter?

[tacoguy64]

I'm not sure if this is an issue with the xrgb mini, the euro scart adapter that connects to the xrgb mini, or the scart cables from my snes and genesis but sometimes when i'm playing a game the picture changes a bit. It's not a very big change but sometimes the game darkens up a bit and black bars go across the screen. It is definitely not scan lines, and looks like it doesn't belong. Its very noticeable in lighter areas.

[MojoBox]

Wow, setting V-scaler to 2 made all the difference in the world for the N64.

[TrendyNinja]

I'm getting pretty desperate now, can nobody help at all? All you guys who are discussing getting the perfect picture setting for you N64 are you using a NTSC RGB modded console? If so what type of scart lead are you using? Which sync type have you chosen? Where did you buy your scart lead from?

If I don't go through the framemeister and just plug the scart lead into the back of the HDTV I have a picture with sound.

I'm at a total loss with this.

Like I've said in previous posts with sync level set to 14-15 it's nearly a steady solid picture.

[springman]

A little bit of update ...

Actually I got my XRGB-Mini last month through Amazon Japan. A friend of mine had a trip in Tokyo and he picked it up for me. At the same time he bought one for himself. I borrowed his last night, and ...

Dreamcast@240p and Saturn@240p have the same issue on his XRGB unit.

So ... it's either my DC and Saturn, or that batch of XRGB unit-----I've checked the full status of his and my units. Both mine and his were produced 2013-01-31. For now, I'd rule out my RGB cables. I've tried caps and resistors.

I submitted a form at micomsoft.com a few days ago and no response yet.

Hey springman, do you get the same problem on different tvs/monitors? I ask because I tried changing TVs, and today tried a Panasonic 720p set I had with auto sync on. No problems at all with the Framemeister, which I take to mean something with the previous TV (a Toshiba 1080p TV) couldn't handle what the framemeister was outputing with auto sync on, for whatever reason. That said, hey, everything works just great now.

Man, I had no idea how finicky stuff like this can get. To think, I used to think HDMI cables were a pain!

Thanks so much for the heads up. I've been hiding myself into darkness for the last few days due to these issues and all the solder attempts I made that turned to even more frustrations.

Miconsoft replied my message and suggested that it could be failed capacitors inside the consoles. I opened up my DC and my 15-year-old piece of hardware is still so clean and tidy that I didn't see one popped cap. I had nothing to lose anyway so I picked a 220uf cap that is closest to the AV port and replaced it with a new cap. Linked it back up to Mini, same issue. I could only hide deeper into the darkness.

Anyway, I actually started to think about the same as well-----could it be the TV? I'm using a Panasonic 50" plasma. Through HDMI may be it doesn't support the strange refresh rate my DC and Saturn output and it needs Mini to convert it to the more understandable 60Hz by turning off sync mode?

Now the problem is I don't have another HDMI display in my house (all my computer monitors are DVI the max); I'll definitely report back after I get a chance to test other displays elsewhere.

I need to fix this, but I need some rests now.

[MartijnK]

Hi,
I have been messing around with my old pal snes and the xrgbmini for some time now. Has anybody got some experience on what settings are optimal for xrgbmini on a pal snes? only 576p seems to work, but I understand thats preferred anyway for pal consolos. But what about scanline settings, sharpness, colour settings etc etc?

Thanks!

ps. The biggest issues for me right now:
1. getting the scanlines perfect
2. try to get the black borders left and right equal. The right border is broader. Not a very big deal in 4:3, but in 16:9 the keft border dissapears and the right border stays.

[blizzz]

Wow, setting V-scaler to 2 made all the difference in the world for the N64.

Setting V_SCALER to 2 will give you misaligned scanlines, not a great solution imo.

I have been messing around with my old pal snes and the xrgbmini for some time now. Has anybody got some experience on what settings are optimal for xrgbmini on a pal snes? only 576p seems to work, but I understand thats preferred anyway for pal consolos. But what about scanline settings, sharpness, colour settings etc etc?

Yes, you're limited to 576p 50Hz with unmodded PAL consoles if you want scanlines.
IMAGE_MODE : PICTURE
H_SCALER: 5
V_SCALER: 6
SHARPNESS: 0 or maybe 1
You can also adjust the A/D Level to get the brightness right.

NTSC consoles will obviously give you a better experience with the Framemeister.

[MojoBox]

Yes, there is misalignment with the scanlines. but I had the same issues as Rongolian with glitchy, noisy, unpleasant looking edges and setting V-Scaler to 2 completely resolves that. You get smooth, if blurry, edges. The edges are much more of an eye sore to me than off scanlines, which I can just disable if it gets annoying, but that's just personal preference.

[MartijnK]

I have been messing around with my old pal snes and the xrgbmini for some time now. Has anybody got some experience on what settings are optimal for xrgbmini on a pal snes? only 576p seems to work, but I understand thats preferred anyway for pal consolos. But what about scanline settings, sharpness, colour settings etc etc?

Yes, you're limited to 576p 50Hz with unmodded PAL consoles if you want scanlines.
IMAGE_MODE : PICTURE
H_SCALER: 5
V_SCALER: 6
SHARPNESS: 0 or maybe 1
You can also adjust the A/D Level to get the brightness right.

NTSC consoles will obviously give you a better experience with the Framemeister.[/quote]

Ok thanks. Yeah I figured the xrgb is more tailored for ntsc concoles and I might expand my collection with japanese/us consoles.
Do you know by any chance what the best setting is for pal wii VC games? On those 576p doesnt seem to produce any scanlines, but 720p seems to work decent. I use component cable.
And same question for psone classics bought on the ps3 psn store. (via hdmi)
Thanks for your info and time!

[blizzz]

You have to force VC games to 288p output mode. To do that you press the home button, plug in a nunchuck and open the digital manual. Press A+1+Z simultaniously to switch to 288p. You can go back to 576i with A+2+Z. Not all games support 240p/288p output though. On a NTSC system menu you have to select 480i output for the console first.

PSone classics on a PS3 shouldn't go through the Framemeister. They are already laggy enough and the added delay would only make it worse. Btw, if you bought the games on the European PSN you only get the 50Hz versions.

[MartijnK]

You have to force VC games to 288p output mode. To do that you press the home button, plug in a nunchuck and open the digital manual. Press A+1+Z simultaniously to switch to 288p. You can go back to 576i with A+2+Z. Not all games support 240p/288p output though. On a NTSC system menu you have to select 480i output for the console first.

PSone classics on a PS3 shouldn't go through the Framemeister. They are already laggy enough and the added delay would only make it worse. Btw, if you bought the games on the European PSN you only get the 50Hz versions.

OK thans again! Gonna try it later tonight.

[austin532]

Wow, setting V-scaler to 2 made all the difference in the world for the N64.

Setting V_SCALER to 2 will give you misaligned scanlines, not a great solution imo.

How so? I see no difference or misalignment with the scanlines. The only flaw is that by setting it to 2 there is a very minor halo effect on top of text. It's barely noticeable at 2 compared to let's say 5 or 4. A small sacrifice to pay to get a smoother and overall better looking image when playing PS1/N64.

[BuckoA51]

I've tried 2 scart leads with the N64, one was the official Nintendo Gamecube scart and the other is some 3rd party scart lead.

I've also got the XRGB Mini with built in Sync Stripper but that gives no picture whatsoever and no amount of adjusting the sync level will give a picture, just a blue screen. Although there is sound.

I can't get my N64 to work without a sync stripper in the chain. You want a SCART cable that's properly wired so that it supplies enough voltage to run the stripper. Try one from http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/ They're only a tenner and I can confirm it is wired correctly and runs the sync stripper no problem (if it doesn't the problem must be your console, but one step at a time).

Hey guys, can I hook a Naomi board on my framemeister with a vga to hdmi adapter?

Not recommended, use a sync combiner instead (see the Dreamcast page on the Wiki)

[TrendyNinja]

Thanks for replying BuckoA51.

I've now fixed it and this time it seems to be a permanant fix. I'd forgotten that I had a Joytech AV unit that I'd bought a few years back. I've set it up and by going through the AV unit to the xrgb mini I get a 100% stable picture everytime with my NTSC N64. I guess the AV unit is providing the extra power it needed to keep the N64 image stable. I can't beleive I'd forgotten I had this AV unit as well, has a remote control with it as well. So drama over at last. Me and my lad were playing Mario 64 and then we had a blast on Mario Kart 64, Starfox 64 and then some Mischief Makers. Brilliant stuff!

Now I know everybody goes on about 1080p and scanlines being a no no, but for me I think it looks fantastic. Ignorance is bliss and all that but I genuinely can't see anything wrong at all. Games on my N64 is this resolution look incredible. The thing I like about the scanlines at this resolution is that they are more subtle. In 720p they seem to be very obvious and in Mario 64 for example, when looking at the sky at the beginning of the game outside the castle, some lines seem really thick and darker.

I tried a few Gamecube games in this resolution with scanlines via the Wii and again...the games just look stunning to me, Resident Evil Zero and F-Zero GX. No pecularities that I could see with the scanlines whatsoever.

Unless I'm missing something...but whatever it is, it's not blatantly obvious to me.

[MojoBox]

Scanlines in 1080p will use the B set and be of an uneven thickness. Every other line will be thicker. You can tweak them such that it's less glaringly obvious but mostly it just looks weird or off. Unless you use Smart X2 mode in which case the scanlines will be the A set, they will all be the same size. It looks pretty good mostly, but they are razor thin. Looks better for 3D games than 2D as far as I'm concerned.

As for the 720p scanlines looking uneven in Mario 64, I know exactly what you are talking about. It's sort of an optical illusion, they aren't actually different sizes but they appear to be. I think it has something to do with over-saturation as it is most noticeable in specific colors (green and white for me). I resolved this issue by toning down the saturation/gamma settings.

[FreakingWesley]

Hey guys, new Framemeister (Mini) owner here. Still getting the hang of the device. Figuring it out has taken a good chunk of my day.

One thing I cannot get working properly is my NES (NTSC). I'm using regular composite cables as output. When I configure the resolution as 720p, which I need for the scanlines to appear properly, the screen has this constant shakiness. When outputting in 1080i, the screen is perfectly still, except I can't get it to look properly, I'm assuming due to the lack of scanlines. 720i would be a solution, but that doesn't appear to be an option.

Now I'm obviously doing something wrong considering I can't get my screen to look even remotely fine. Anyone willing to lend a hand, explain to me what I'm doing wrong?