The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 308

rcoltrane wrote:

Who has the Vogatek MK II composite supergun here? I've bought a Pit-Fighter 3 player JAMMA+ board and I want to connect it to my HDTV though composite or s-video cables since my TV still have composite and S-Video inputs. And since I'm going to use standard microswitch arcade joysticks, I guess that this model is the only one which would fit my needs. Is this correct? Or do we have other supergun options which supports both composite/s-video/component or hdmi video output and standard microswitch arcade joysticks, such as wico or IL at the same time?

You can do any of those things on any Supergun with the right accessories.

Most of the Superguns I have seen have Neo Geo controller ports as a minimum. From that, you can. Buy a Neo Geo extension cable ($8) and connect the other end to a 2 row db15 breakout board ($7 on eBay). The breakout board allows you to connect wires to numbered screw terminals and hook up joysticks and arcade micro switch buttons. It's incredibly easy to build a Supergun control panel like this. I just made one for myself.

On the video hookups, if you buy a Supergun that only outputs RGB, you can buy JROK which converts RGB to NTSC (SVideo or composite) or component video. Or you can just buy one which has the port you want built in.

eBay is littered with the sort of low cost upscalers you would find in many Superguns with HDMI out. You might get better results buying a regular rgb Supergun and choosing your own scaler like the Xrgb mini or OSSC etc.

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 308

I figured out my Supergun issues so I thought I would share just in case it helps someone else here.

It turns out that the excessive brightness when displayed on consumer level rgb monitors (BVMs, PVMs, Ikegami and rgb scart TVs etc) was caused by the power supply. These cheap eBay Superguns use regular PC ATX PSUs which is great for convenience and cost but.... cheap Superguns can be very sensitive to excess voltage or shortfalls.

A PC might work fine on 4.7v from the 5v line but not arcade PCBs so check you psu before use. After switching out my cheap Chinese PSU for a reliable one, I was able to display a nice image on my Ikegami monitor at correct brightness levels.

The issue when using this Supergun on my arcade monitor was vertical hold problems. As the Supergun works fine on my Ikegami, I concluded that this is most likely caused by the sync on composite video. I have ordered another scart to BNC adapter but this time, I got the one with a built in sync stripper. I think that will solve any remaining issues.

This $60 eBay Supergun actually works quite well now.

RGB · Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Posts: 480 Location: Europe

@Classicgamer, Please don't take it personally, but I just think it's important to explain a few things about that Vogatek/arcade in general, so that misinformation isn't spread elsewhere, too.

Classicgamer wrote:

The thing that everyone thinking about buying one should be aware of is that they don't include the resistor array needed to display arcade RGB on a consumer rgb tv (or monitor). This is a serious flaw as their key purpose is to display arcade PCBs on a crt tv with rgb scart...

I've seen that supergun before, and it does have resistors on the RGB lines and the CSync line, meaning that it is capable of bringing the signal amplitude to acceptable levels (below 1Vp-p). Sure, it doesn't buffer and impedance match the signals, but the signal amplitude is safe.

Classicgamer wrote:

If I try and use it on my broadcast monitor, the image is overly bright and can not be adjusted down to acceptable levels. Take note BVM / PVM owners. I believe this is why some people have had issues with consumer devices like upscalers not designed to handle a 5v rgb signal.

When I connect it to my arcade monitor and flick the 75ohm switch, the image comes out as it should in terms of brightness. But it has trouble with V hold, strange as I have no v hold issues with other sources and the Ikegami managed v hold just fine...

It was overly bright on the broadcast monitor and fine on the Ikegami with the 75R termination turned on - this basically means that your broadcast monitor lacked that termination (some monitors require external 75R termination caps).

Classicgamer wrote:

there is also other screen issues with geometry and shape on my arcade monitor that are not there on other sources. This tells me that the signal strength is too much even for a monitor design to handle arcade boards directly. The issues are similar to what I see when contrast is set too high and the coils overheat.

This has to do with the exact game you ran and your monitor, not the supergun. Arcade PCBs can output the CSync at 3-5Vp-p (TTL level), so there's no way the signal strength is too much for the arcade monitor.

Classicgamer wrote:

It won't display any image through my Extron interface which tells me that the sync signal is not clean. I suggest buying the more expensive scart to BNC adapters with built in sync strike and running the signal through a resistor array before plugging into any consumer display or scaler.

Arcade PCBs output perfect TTL Csync, so Sync Strike is not necessary at all. Maybe to act as a buffer (but there are better ways for digital signals), but not as something that can "fix" your sync from the arcade PCBs.

Classicgamer wrote:

The issue when using this Supergun on my arcade monitor was vertical hold problems. As the Supergun works fine on my Ikegami, I concluded that this is most likely caused by the sync on composite video. I have ordered another scart to BNC adapter but this time, I got the one with a built in sync stripper. I think that will solve any remaining issues.

Again, the arcade PCBs output Composite Sync, not Composite Video, so there's no point in stripping anything.

Classicgamer wrote:

It turns out that the excessive brightness when displayed on consumer level rgb monitors (BVMs, PVMs, Ikegami and rgb scart TVs etc) was caused by the power supply. These cheap eBay Superguns use regular PC ATX PSUs which is great for convenience and cost but.... cheap Superguns can be very sensitive to excess voltage or shortfalls.

A PC might work fine on 4.7v from the 5v line but not arcade PCBs so check you psu before use. After switching out my cheap Chinese PSU for a reliable one, I was able to display a nice image on my Ikegami monitor at correct brightness levels.

While I agree that +4.7V is a bit low, it has nothing to do with the supergun outputting overly bright picture. Furthermore, that supergun doesn't have any video signal buffers, just a bunch of resistors, so the supergun itself cannot be affected by under/overvoltage at all - it will be the actual PCB game.

I cannot explain why it started to output "normal" picture when you changed the PSU, but I'd start looking for the root cause in your specific setup (TV/monitor setting, video cables etc.). Hope that helps.

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 308

RGB wrote:

@Classicgamer, Please don't take it personally, but I just think it's important to explain a few things about that Vogatek/arcade in general, so that misinformation isn't spread elsewhere, too.

Classicgamer wrote:

The thing that everyone thinking about buying one should be aware of is that they don't include the resistor array needed to display arcade RGB on a consumer rgb tv (or monitor). This is a serious flaw as their key purpose is to display arcade PCBs on a crt tv with rgb scart...

I've seen that supergun before, and it does have resistors on the RGB lines and the CSync line, meaning that it is capable of bringing the signal amplitude to acceptable levels (below 1Vp-p). Sure, it doesn't buffer and impedance match the signals, but the signal amplitude is safe.

Classicgamer wrote:

If I try and use it on my broadcast monitor, the image is overly bright and can not be adjusted down to acceptable levels. Take note BVM / PVM owners. I believe this is why some people have had issues with consumer devices like upscalers not designed to handle a 5v rgb signal.

When I connect it to my arcade monitor and flick the 75ohm switch, the image comes out as it should in terms of brightness. But it has trouble with V hold, strange as I have no v hold issues with other sources and the Ikegami managed v hold just fine...

It was overly bright on the broadcast monitor and fine on the Ikegami with the 75R termination turned on - this basically means that your broadcast monitor lacked that termination (some monitors require external 75R termination caps).

Classicgamer wrote:

there is also other screen issues with geometry and shape on my arcade monitor that are not there on other sources. This tells me that the signal strength is too much even for a monitor design to handle arcade boards directly. The issues are similar to what I see when contrast is set too high and the coils overheat.

This has to do with the exact game you ran and your monitor, not the supergun. Arcade PCBs can output the CSync at 3-5Vp-p (TTL level), so there's no way the signal strength is too much for the arcade monitor.

Classicgamer wrote:

It won't display any image through my Extron interface which tells me that the sync signal is not clean. I suggest buying the more expensive scart to BNC adapters with built in sync strike and running the signal through a resistor array before plugging into any consumer display or scaler.

Arcade PCBs output perfect TTL Csync, so Sync Strike is not necessary at all. Maybe to act as a buffer (but there are better ways for digital signals), but not as something that can "fix" your sync from the arcade PCBs.

Classicgamer wrote:

The issue when using this Supergun on my arcade monitor was vertical hold problems. As the Supergun works fine on my Ikegami, I concluded that this is most likely caused by the sync on composite video. I have ordered another scart to BNC adapter but this time, I got the one with a built in sync stripper. I think that will solve any remaining issues.

Again, the arcade PCBs output Composite Sync, not Composite Video, so there's no point in stripping anything.

Classicgamer wrote:

It turns out that the excessive brightness when displayed on consumer level rgb monitors (BVMs, PVMs, Ikegami and rgb scart TVs etc) was caused by the power supply. These cheap eBay Superguns use regular PC ATX PSUs which is great for convenience and cost but.... cheap Superguns can be very sensitive to excess voltage or shortfalls.

A PC might work fine on 4.7v from the 5v line but not arcade PCBs so check you psu before use. After switching out my cheap Chinese PSU for a reliable one, I was able to display a nice image on my Ikegami monitor at correct brightness levels.

While I agree that +4.7V is a bit low, it has nothing to do with the supergun outputting overly bright picture. Furthermore, that supergun doesn't have any video signal buffers, just a bunch of resistors, so the supergun itself cannot be affected by under/overvoltage at all - it will be the actual PCB game.

I cannot explain why it started to output "normal" picture when you changed the PSU, but I'd start looking for the root cause in your specific setup (TV/monitor setting, video cables etc.). Hope that helps.

Your info is wrong.

The whole point of a Supergun is to output RGB at correct voltage for consumer TVs (which is the same as what is used by most pro monitors too). My Ikegami monitor requires the same 0.7v rgb as consumer TVs with RGB scart ports. Any Supergun should be capable of displaying an image at correct brightness on consumer displays or any broadcast monitor.

But, using a poor quality PSU can most definately mess up the image by making is too bright or other issues associated with too much (or too little) power. It has nothing to do with the Supergun, using the wrong voltage causes issues even if you hook up the PCB directly with a Jamma Harness which is why they sell those jamma edge adapters with built in voltage meters. I.e. Because the wrong voltage can damage monitors.

My first Supergun which I owned in the 90s had built in voltage regulators which prevented such issues. This Supergun is cheap crap so it has no such protections. So, I wouldn't use one without a high quality PSU. And, I suggest checking the voltage before connecting to a display (or scaler).

When I first connected this Supergun to my Ikegami monitor, it immediately turned on the over-voltage protection light which means that the Supergun is not doing it's job. It's job being to output the rgb signal at correct levels for consumer displays. Switching to a smaller PSU made it display at correct levels (although not for all games).

I don't know much about specifying what size resistors are needed. I can see plain as day though, that this Supergun has far less than my old (far higher quality) supergun. Personally, I think it is worth spending the extra $50 to get one with more overvoltage protection to protect expensive display kit.

RGB · Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Posts: 480 Location: Europe

I see. Not going to try to set you straight again, just tried to help by giving you facts.

zakk · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 1358 Location: Vienna, VA

Classicgamer wrote:

RGB wrote:

@Classicgamer, Please don't take it personally, but I just think it's important to explain a few things about that Vogatek/arcade in general, so that misinformation isn't spread elsewhere, too.

Classicgamer wrote:

The thing that everyone thinking about buying one should be aware of is that they don't include the resistor array needed to display arcade RGB on a consumer rgb tv (or monitor). This is a serious flaw as their key purpose is to display arcade PCBs on a crt tv with rgb scart...

I've seen that supergun before, and it does have resistors on the RGB lines and the CSync line, meaning that it is capable of bringing the signal amplitude to acceptable levels (below 1Vp-p). Sure, it doesn't buffer and impedance match the signals, but the signal amplitude is safe.

Classicgamer wrote:

If I try and use it on my broadcast monitor, the image is overly bright and can not be adjusted down to acceptable levels. Take note BVM / PVM owners. I believe this is why some people have had issues with consumer devices like upscalers not designed to handle a 5v rgb signal.

When I connect it to my arcade monitor and flick the 75ohm switch, the image comes out as it should in terms of brightness. But it has trouble with V hold, strange as I have no v hold issues with other sources and the Ikegami managed v hold just fine...

It was overly bright on the broadcast monitor and fine on the Ikegami with the 75R termination turned on - this basically means that your broadcast monitor lacked that termination (some monitors require external 75R termination caps).

Classicgamer wrote:

there is also other screen issues with geometry and shape on my arcade monitor that are not there on other sources. This tells me that the signal strength is too much even for a monitor design to handle arcade boards directly. The issues are similar to what I see when contrast is set too high and the coils overheat.

This has to do with the exact game you ran and your monitor, not the supergun. Arcade PCBs can output the CSync at 3-5Vp-p (TTL level), so there's no way the signal strength is too much for the arcade monitor.

Classicgamer wrote:

It won't display any image through my Extron interface which tells me that the sync signal is not clean. I suggest buying the more expensive scart to BNC adapters with built in sync strike and running the signal through a resistor array before plugging into any consumer display or scaler.

Arcade PCBs output perfect TTL Csync, so Sync Strike is not necessary at all. Maybe to act as a buffer (but there are better ways for digital signals), but not as something that can "fix" your sync from the arcade PCBs.

Classicgamer wrote:

The issue when using this Supergun on my arcade monitor was vertical hold problems. As the Supergun works fine on my Ikegami, I concluded that this is most likely caused by the sync on composite video. I have ordered another scart to BNC adapter but this time, I got the one with a built in sync stripper. I think that will solve any remaining issues.

Again, the arcade PCBs output Composite Sync, not Composite Video, so there's no point in stripping anything.

Classicgamer wrote:

It turns out that the excessive brightness when displayed on consumer level rgb monitors (BVMs, PVMs, Ikegami and rgb scart TVs etc) was caused by the power supply. These cheap eBay Superguns use regular PC ATX PSUs which is great for convenience and cost but.... cheap Superguns can be very sensitive to excess voltage or shortfalls.

A PC might work fine on 4.7v from the 5v line but not arcade PCBs so check you psu before use. After switching out my cheap Chinese PSU for a reliable one, I was able to display a nice image on my Ikegami monitor at correct brightness levels.

While I agree that +4.7V is a bit low, it has nothing to do with the supergun outputting overly bright picture. Furthermore, that supergun doesn't have any video signal buffers, just a bunch of resistors, so the supergun itself cannot be affected by under/overvoltage at all - it will be the actual PCB game.

I cannot explain why it started to output "normal" picture when you changed the PSU, but I'd start looking for the root cause in your specific setup (TV/monitor setting, video cables etc.). Hope that helps.

Your info is wrong.

The whole point of a Supergun is to output RGB at correct voltage for consumer TVs (which is the same as what is used by most pro monitors too). My Ikegami monitor requires the same 0.7v rgb as consumer TVs with RGB scart ports. Any Supergun should be capable of displaying an image at correct brightness on consumer displays or any broadcast monitor.

But, using a poor quality PSU can most definately mess up the image by making is too bright or other issues associated with too much (or too little) power. It has nothing to do with the Supergun, using the wrong voltage causes issues even if you hook up the PCB directly with a Jamma Harness which is why they sell those jamma edge adapters with built in voltage meters. I.e. Because the wrong voltage can damage monitors.

My first Supergun which I owned in the 90s had built in voltage regulators which prevented such issues. This Supergun is cheap crap so it has no such protections. So, I wouldn't use one without a high quality PSU. And, I suggest checking the voltage before connecting to a display (or scaler).

When I first connected this Supergun to my Ikegami monitor, it immediately turned on the over-voltage protection light which means that the Supergun is not doing it's job. It's job being to output the rgb signal at correct levels for consumer displays. Switching to a smaller PSU made it display at correct levels (although not for all games).

I don't know much about specifying what size resistors are needed. I can see plain as day though, that this Supergun has far less than my old (far higher quality) supergun. Personally, I think it is worth spending the extra $50 to get one with more overvoltage protection to protect expensive display kit.

Welp boys, time to throw away those HAS superguns, ClassicGamer has spoken.

Frank_fjs · Joined: 08 Dec 2018 Posts: 9

This is my supergun, called the Sentinel.

It's in the last phase of prototyping, a few improvments and additions are in the final version which I hope to fabricate soon. The picture above therefore isn't indicative of the finished product.

Quite compact at 130mm x 60mm.
Buffered RGBS.
Sync cleaner.
75 Ohm or TTL sync output.
LPF which can be enabled or disabled.
RGB Scart video output, MD2 DIN.
Component video output via HD RetroVision cable.
Composite and s-video output via hat.
VGA (15K) output via hat.
Mono / stereo audio.
Attenuated audio output.
3.5mm audio jack which can be utilised as an output or line level input.
4 player controller hat.
Neo-Geo controller inputs. I produce my own Snes / Mega Drive controller adapters. Compatible pinout with Undamned USB decoders. Can also use Tototek PlayStation 1 adapters, 8bitdo wireless receivers, tons of controller options.
Test and service tactile buttons.
Dipswitch to enable buttons 4,5,6 for each player from the jamma edge.
Kick harness connector.
Onboard voltmeter, neatly flush mounted, 5V / 12V selectable.
Onboard negative 5V generation.
ATX or Arcade PSU via harness.

Currently in the process of designing a plexi case for it.

That about sums it up. Pretty happy with how it's turned out.

emphatic · Joined: 18 Aug 2008 Posts: 7470 Location: Alingsås, Sweden

Frank_fjs wrote:

https://www.arcade-projects.com/forums/index.php?attachment/14883-part-1545140161705-jpg

This is my supergun, called the Sentinel.

It's in the last phase of prototyping, a few improvments and additions are in the final version which I hope to fabricate soon. The picture above therefore isn't indicative of the finished product.

Quite compact at 130mm x 60mm.
Buffered RGBS.
Sync cleaner.
75 Ohm or TTL sync output.
LPF which can be enabled or disabled.
RGB Scart video output, MD2 DIN.
Component video output via HD RetroVision cable.
Composite and s-video output via hat.
VGA (15K) output via hat.
Mono / stereo audio.
Attenuated audio output.
3.5mm audio jack which can be utilised as an output or line level input.
4 player controller hat.
Neo-Geo controller inputs. I produce my own Snes / Mega Drive controller adapters. Compatible pinout with Undamned USB decoders. Can also use Tototek PlayStation 1 adapters, 8bitdo wireless receivers, tons of controller options.
Test and service tactile buttons.
Dipswitch to enable buttons 4,5,6 for each player from the jamma edge.
Kick harness connector.
Onboard voltmeter, neatly flush mounted, 5V / 12V selectable.
Onboard negative 5V generation.
ATX or Arcade PSU via harness.

Currently in the process of designing a plexi case for it.

That about sums it up. Pretty happy with how it's turned out.

Very nice. How much is it?

Frank_fjs · Joined: 08 Dec 2018 Posts: 9

Pricing hasn't been fully finalised but I would estimate $130 USD and up pending optional extras.

Bit more of an idea of where I'm heading, 4 player controller hat, various video hats, plexi base plate etc.

rcoltrane · Joined: 13 Dec 2013 Posts: 25

Could you guys tell me which ATX power supply is reliable enough for a cheap supergun to work correctly? My PCB needs -5v so the ATX power supply must have this output.

The one I found has only 200w. Is this enough power to run a Jamma+ arcade PCB through a Vogatek MK II supergun? I'm searching a lot but it seems that modern PSUs abandoned the -5v output

Frank_fjs · Joined: 08 Dec 2018 Posts: 9

Correct, negative 5V was dropped from the ATX standard around 15 years ago. I believe post ATX version 1.3 is when it started to disappear.

This is why some supergun boards incorporate onboard -5V generation.

What I did is purchase an older ATX from a computer recycling store that still has -5V.

plasticbugs · Joined: 06 Jan 2019 Posts: 1

I'm on the waitlist for a HAS, but in the meantime, I'd like to make use of the retroelectronik supergun that I bought before seeing all the negative comments here. Could I make the Retroelectronik board safer for connecting to my PVM if I attenuate the sync signal with a 470R resistor and put a buffer like this Raphnet one for the RGB signals between the arcade PCB and the SCART connector on the supergun?

low_budget · Joined: 27 Nov 2013 Posts: 48

I no longer have any PARSEC v1.0 boards left so I did a redesign, the new v1.1 board.

The v1.1 PARSEC Supergun has the following Improvements over the v1.0 PCB:

The v1.1 circuit is the same as v1.0 so no changes there.

The HAT board I'm making will work on both versions of the PARSEC. It adds VGA and 8p mini-DIN connectors for RGB outputs and 2 sync modes.

It will take me a while to assemble small quantities of v1.1 PARSEC systems and additional HAT boards.
I'll need to order parts and set aside quite a bit of time, so this will be a while.

It is currently Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:35 pm	View unanswered posts
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