The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

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kemical
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by kemical »

been researching the history of Japanese arcade control boxes and came across this great 2019 interview with the creator of the first control box, Suzuki Yasushi (of Kyowa International). He is still producing them to this day nearly 40 years later, though sadly he has a heart condition and thinks that the latest COMBO AV EX++ may be the last one produced.

https://igcc.jp/%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A7%E3%8 ... %E3%83%AB1
part 2
https://igcc.jp/%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A7%E3%8 ... E3%83%AB2/

here's some translated excerpts:

Suzuki: The control box was released in 1985. It was two or three years after we started selling the chassis to general customers. Before we started selling the control box, we were making video signal conversion boards such as RGB converters and video converters. At that time, there were no other products like these, so they were introduced in various magazines. After the video converter was completed, we were able to convert RGB signals to video output and S terminal output, and then we started making control boxes.

Suzuki: The video converter I made was an OEM product for Sony, and was used in the 1992 Barcelona Olympics. It was used to output to a large monitor called a "Jumbotron".

Ohori: That's amazing!

Suzuki: Until then, Sony had no video converter. It wasn't until after the 1992 Barcelona Olympics that Sony released the 1645, a high-performance converter that was also used in Playstation 1.

Suzuki: The control box had a predecessor product, the "G-BOX," which we started selling in 1985, and it was designed to allow mahjong games and other games to be played on televisions connected to video terminals in business hotels.

The "G" in "G-BOX" stands for the "G" in gambling, not in games. I was able to use the video terminal to project images like a mahjong game beautifully.

Suzuki: In 1988, we released the KIC-045, which sold much better as an assembled kit than as a finished product. In 1991, the "COMBO AV" was released, and it sold very well thanks to the boom of "Street Fighter II" (1991/Capcom). It sold amazingly well. Here it is (pointing to an advertisement from that time). The editorial department of "Bemaga" bought two COMBO AVs and had them featured on the cover of the magazine.

Ohori: Kyowa's control box was the first in the industry, wasn't it?

Suzuki: That's right. "It started with the G-BOX, and we were the first to release products like the barebone kit. We used to have a model named "Sigma", but now we only make the "COMBO" series. The customers who buy our products now are all people who have been using our products for a long time. We don't have many new customers. There are fewer people who want to play arcade games in the first place.

Ohori: How many control boxes did Kyowa actually sell in total?

Suzuki: I can't give you a specific number in a flash, but we have sold at the level of several thousand units. During the boom years, we sold a huge number, so I'd say about 5,000 units...or maybe even more.

Suzuki: I'm doing it all by myself now. When the product was selling best, it was impossible for me to do it alone, so I asked a company called Marine Game, a major game cabinet manufacturer, to assemble it for me. Now, since we don't produce so many units, I ask a contractor to do only the sheet metal part and do the assembly by myself. I work as if the wages are my salary (laughs).

Suzuki: Since we launched this (COMBO AV EX++) in December 2018, we've already sold over 300 units, which is about one unit every two or three days. It's not so bad when you consider that I'm doing it as a hobby (laughs).
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mehguy
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by mehguy »

kemical wrote:been researching the history of Japanese arcade control boxes and came across this great 2019 interview with the creator of the first control box, Suzuki Yasushi (of Kyowa International). He is still producing them to this day nearly 40 years later, though sadly he has a heart condition and thinks that the latest COMBO AV EX++ may be the last one produced.

https://igcc.jp/%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A7%E3%8 ... %E3%83%AB1
part 2
https://igcc.jp/%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A7%E3%8 ... E3%83%AB2/
In part 2 it seems like he's using a GBS-8200 as a video converter
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Donttouchthedoor
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

Love to get a Super Gun setup in the near future. Someone who has done a DIY Minigun Super gun what was the total cost for bill of materials? The Parsec also looks really nice with the add-ons for additional video output options. I have a CRT tv OSSC Retrotink 2x pro as video options for it as well as some Extron scalers like a DSC 301 hd, and two DVS 304. What are light gun options like for a Super Gun setup? are people hooking up original light guns to the super gun and using CRT's?
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Starfighter
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by Starfighter »

This thread reminds me of Fire-bug! I wonder what happened, he hasn't logged in since 2010... Hope he's doing well wherever he is! I bought a super gun he made through here and it was great. :)
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Strikers1945guy
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by Strikers1945guy »

So… what’s my best bet to track down something like a sigma Raijin or the like in 2023?
Is there someone making something similar?
Mister Midnight wrote:btw, cant trust them Koreans; remember Pearl Harbor
XtraSmiley
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

The HAS is still a great choice (the best?) in SuperGuns. The seller still has some right now, but I have an extra if anyone is looking for a slight discount.
XtraSmiley
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

And now the HAS has a website!

Hey, great news, the best Super Gun is finally fully available!


https://rgbslab.com/
gray117
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by gray117 »

With any old supergun just be prepared to change the psu for a new one.

New or old just make sure you basically get a good quality happ power supply.

Aside from obvious issues around older components there's all kinds of interference issues that lesser power supplies can cause.

I'm not sure if they're still produced (they always seemed to go out of stock even when I got mine) but one of most handy things I got for my setup were undamned usb decoders - - allowing me to use any usb joystick on db15 ports and customise the button layout if needed (kind of handy for 4 button neo geo titles in particular):

https://paradisearcadeshop.com/products ... sb-decoder

(you can just plug these into your supergun and run usb extension/connection cords to the front connectors of a mini pc case to house everything inside.... Rig up a power switch... And run the scart cable out the back to your Ossc or retrotink... Done :D

(only annoyance on mine being to open up case if wanting to check /tweak voltage and colour balance)

I'd stick to emulation and sinden these days for lightgun games unless you have all the parts and crts... The harnesses aren't supergun friendly IMHO... Kick harnesses are a big enough pain in arse...
Cesart636
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by Cesart636 »

XtraSmiley wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:02 am The HAS is still a great choice (the best?) in SuperGuns. The seller still has some right now, but I have an extra if anyone is looking for a slight discount.
Hi there I know I am late but would you still have the HAS Supergun for sale?
minati3748
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by minati3748 »

So far, I have found this to be the most overall useful to players. It allows the use of all neo geo sticks, as well as the psx->jamma converters supplied by laugh, and also the psx-neo geo converers by totek.com....
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

I hope someone could help me out here with an issue I'm having with my supergun setup.

I have a crappy old dirty cheap Vogatek MK II supergun attached to my Atari Pit-Fighter 3 player PCB, all powered up by an arcade PSU with ATX connector and a Panasonic CRT TV from 2006, which has both composite and component inputs. Since this MK II only outputs in composite or s-video, I cannot use the component side of the TV for a better picture quality, unfortunately. I have plans to buy a CBOX 3.0 in the future to fix that up. But by now I will stay with the Vogatek.

Everything is working BUT, when I turn on everything for the 1st time, the image at first becomes completely messed up, all colors are wrong and the image shakes a lot, I can barely see anything. Then, after some time (I mean, after 40 minutes), the image stabilizes but the colors were still off and the image is not centered. After 1 hour, the correct colors are displayed, but the image is not centered yet. And after exactly 2 hours and 5 minutes, the image finally becomes centered by itself and everything is fine. And all of this happens without changing anything on the supergun adjustment pots, since they are VERY SENSITIVE and you have to keep it untouched after it's properly calibrated!

So my question here is: why is this thing taking SOOOO LONG to stabilize the image with centered image and correct colors? It looks like something needs to warm up or something like that! Waiting 2 hours to play is very annoying.

Any advice will be very appreciated!
Thanks!
RC
XtraSmiley
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

First, buy a HAS supergun, they are the best and the newest version with many new features will be available in January. Don't waste money trying to upgrade the lower quality product you are trying to use now.

That being said, has this worked with other PCBs? Pit Fighter is a power hog (amps). Are you sure your PSU is giving enough power? Is it an ATX PSU, because that might be the problem.
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

XtraSmiley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:44 am First, buy a HAS supergun, they are the best and the newest version with many new features will be available in January. Don't waste money trying to upgrade the lower quality product you are trying to use now.

That being said, has this worked with other PCBs? Pit Fighter is a power hog (amps). Are you sure your PSU is giving enough power? Is it an ATX PSU, because that might be the problem.
Thank you for your reply! That HAS is kinda expensive for what I have in mind and since I only have Pit-Fighter and won't buy any other board, I want to stick with cheaper devices that at least get the job done. This Vogatek is picky but after adjusting it and the image is stabilized, I can play the game with zero lag and both picture/audio quality are good for me. I really don't need anything fancy or top notch, I just want to play this single game at home from time to time.

Answering your question, I have never tested my power supply. It is not a computer ATX power supply. It's an old Wey-ya arcade power supply with an ATX connector attached to it by the seller. So, I never thought I would have to test it myself. I will post some pictures of it here and will try to record a small video showing these issues I'm having.
XtraSmiley
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

I have a crazy respect for a person who ONLY wants to play Pit Fighter, which everyone here knows is the greatest fighting game ever made.

I would recommend the pseudo sequel, Guardians of the Hood if you get a chance...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1nGktldmQk
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

No way!! Guardians Of The Hood is terrible, I have to admit! But Pit-Fighter is VERY underrated and its bad reputation comes from the lazy as f*ck ports. It's a solid game, specially when you try to 1CC it on hardest!

Well, here are some pictures of my ongoing project:

Image
Image

As you can see, the power supply knob is still sealed since the day I bought this thing.

And here are some pics of my joysticks, all controls but the white buttons and the IL joystick came from a dedicated Pit-Fighter machine. So yeah, I reaaaally love this game! Lol

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
XtraSmiley
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

That's def a budget SG! Shoot some pics of the display so we can tell what it's showings.

As for the PSU, it's a low amp one, but you can probably goose the 5v a little by turning that knob that's under the sticker. If you don't have a voltmeter, don't do it too much, but Pit Fighter is a huge board, so it does need a lot of juice. Giving it more power may stabilize your picture.
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

I will take some pics and nake a small video showing the initialization issue. Meanwhile, here's a picture taken after the image is stabilized:

Image

Do you think that putting more power to the pcb could make it to stabilize the image faster or, even better, giving the perfect image right out of the bat? Another question: if the power supply is giving less power to my setup, would it still be possible to achieve that great image from the picture above? It is a composite video output, pretty good imo. I have plans to buy a s-video to component converter to improve the image quality after the current issue is solved.

One thing i forgot to mention is that I contered the image by making the horizontal/vertical adjustments through the TV's service menu.
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

Not enough power can result in unpredictable behavior, such as graphic problems, not booting, sound issues. test loops, etc. I don't know if it would cause the image to take time to stabilize, as that sounds more like your SG having trouble with the sync, but with that SG, I think anything is possible. Give it a little more juice and see if that's it. If not, it's easy to move back.
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

I did 4 small videos of the sync issue, see below:

The 1st one is when I turn it on for the 1st time:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N7CFGf ... sp=sharing

The 2nd one was recorded 15 minutes after turning it on and shows the image more stabilized but with wrong colors:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NByGEV ... sp=sharing

The 3rd video was recorded 30 minutes after turning it on, here you can see the colors changing to the correct ones:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NP1H8D ... sp=sharing

And the colors completely stabilized after 35 minutes. But you can notice that the screen is not fully aligned here yet, the image keeps drifting very slowly to the right for the next 1 hour and stops perfectly centered after that:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NRFqIM ... sp=sharing

I will try to get a digital multimeter to check the voltage at the jamma connector of my expansion cable to see if the supergun is delivering correct voltages to the PCB before turning that power supply knob. I reaaly don't want to mess with it in the dark without measuring in real time.
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

Ok, got a multimeter and did some tests. At firts, I got these readings from the jamma extension cable connector pins (at the supergun side):

5v was reading 4.80v
-5v was reading -5.40v
12v was reading 13.48v

At first, I noticed that the 5v was too low and then I removed that seal and started tweaking it to see the results on screen. After raising the power a bit, I noticed that it got worse. Then I started going down and noticed that the image was goong to the right direction and got the correct colors and stabilized image pretty quick. But when I went to read the power, I got these results:

5v -> 4.30v (2)
-5v -> 4.76v
12v -> 12.24v

But I also noticed that after some time, the image started going slowly out of sync again, the same way it did before. And then, by turning the power knob a bit up, I got the correct image again. Then after some time, it started going out of sync again and I increased the power a bit more and it got correct image again. So I realizei that the voltages have to be higher to reach the point I was at the beginning, when the supergun stops syncing the system completely. Then I raised the voltages up to this point:

5v -> 4.53v (2)
-5v -> -5.06v
12v -> 12.81v

I was afraid of reaching 5v because both -5v and 12v will go way off. So now, I need to hear from you if you think it is safe to me to go up and reach 5v right out of the bat, with both -5v and 12v going even higher. What would be the highest possible values for these two lines without risking damage the pcb?
XtraSmiley
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

I know you don't want to do it because of cost, you just need slightly better stuff. The PSU may or may not be crap and the caps inside it are fluctuating way too much. That being said, I would just spend the $30 shipped and order a Meanwell 125A PSU. It will work better, have more amps, and keep stable across multiple PCBs. And with the MW you'll be able to tell if the PCB or SG is draining power weird or if it was just the cheap PSU you currently have.

The only other thing without spending money would be to take your setup to someone close who can help troubleshoot which item is doing a poor power draw, PCB, SG, or PSU.

I'm in DC and would love to help if you're close. I have 2 Pit Fighter PCBs and a 2 Pit Fighter cabinets, and come January the newest version of the HAS, which is hands down the best SG you can buy.
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

Thanks for the info!! I suspect my power supply is quite worn out, as I bought it used. I agree with you, the values are way too far from each other and it might be the cause of these inconsistencies. Maybe the supergun is struggling to calibrate all these values to a decent point and that could be the reason why this takes so long to stabilize.

Does this Meanwell have -5v? I cannot see it anywhere. Is this the correct model?

https://br.mouser.com/ProductDetail/MEA ... cAQAvD_BwE

If this is not the model you are talking about please, put the link here to the store that sells this Meanwell 125A power supply for $30 shipped. My brother will be in Orlando next month and I could ask him to bring one of this to me.

Just one doubt: does it accept an ATX connector attached to it, just like the one I currently have?
XtraSmiley
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

If you Google it, you can find it from many places selling it.

And the actual link from MW:

https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/ac-d ... t-rt--125a

Make sure you get the right one, RT, not RD and the 125A not 125C.

For the connection you'll keep your ATX harness and just unscrew it from your current power supply and screw it into the MW as they have the same screw terminals. Double, triple check the -5v, 12v, 5v, and ground before you unscrew them from your current one as the MW might not be in the exact same places.
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

Today I bought the RT-125A power supply. I think it's worth starting by changing this power supply because I believe this is really the source of the problem. And as my current one had already been used a lot, due to its worn appearance, I think it was worth it! I'll let you know when it arrives.
XtraSmiley wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:36 pm I have 2 Pit Fighter PCBs and a 2 Pit Fighter cabinets
WOW! I would love to see the dedicated cabinet! Please post a picture of it here :D
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

One of my cabs is converted to Battletoads and the other is a Primal Rage. The BT has all the information (such as serial plates) that say Pit Fighter, but the PR looks like it was a factory PR or at least spare PFs they never used. Below picture is not mine, but mine looks like it.

Image
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

Oh yeah, I know pretty well how the PF dedicated cab is. I just thought you had the original PF cabinet still intact. Do you have the Pit-Fighter control panel overlay laying around after these conversions? If yes, would you like to sell it to me? :mrgreen:
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

No sorry, fully converted, likely factory conversions to be honest. The only remaining PF portion is the tag on the back!

I've seen the full PF art set for sale at KLOV rather cheap if you're looking!

Personally, the cabinet is the same as Rampart, a much better game than all these other ones!
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

XtraSmiley wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 4:15 am I've seen the full PF art set for sale at KLOV rather cheap if you're looking!
I'm interested for sure!! Please show me the link if you still have it.

Thank you!!
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by XtraSmiley »

rcoltrane wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:49 pm
XtraSmiley wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 4:15 am I've seen the full PF art set for sale at KLOV rather cheap if you're looking!
I'm interested for sure!! Please show me the link if you still have it.

Thank you!!
Long sold I'm afraid, but I'll keep an eye out for you. Where do you live? I think I may have a marquee you can have for free if I ever dig it up. I have so much stuff, it might be years before I come across it though!
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rcoltrane
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Re: The Supergun discussion and Q&A thread.

Post by rcoltrane »

XtraSmiley wrote: Sun Dec 31, 2023 12:14 am I think I may have a marquee you can have for free if I ever dig it up. I have so much stuff, it might be years before I come across it though!
Don't worry, I already have the Pit-Fighter marquee, I'm currently looking for the side art, monitor bezel and CPO though. If you see one of these for sell please, let me know.

Well, my Meanwell RT-125A arrived today from China:

Image
Image

Now I'm gonna transfer my ATX connector/wires to it. wish me luck! :roll:
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