Soft 15KHz Compatibility

[dmauro]

Can someone recommend a PCIe video card that is definitely compatible with Soft 15KHz and can be found second hand for very cheap. Thank you.

[emphatic]

I think most ATI or Nvida based cards support it. But have a look at the Soft15kHz forums for a list of supported cards. I used this brilliant software for my onboard ATI 9700 with no problems.

Emph

[jonny5]

i would go with an nvidia card, cuz every ati card ive tried with it wouldnt work...ive tried with an ati 9250 and an x1600pro

but others claim success with ati cards....so i dunno....

all i know is i havent found a nvidia card yet that didnt work

[dmauro]

I had success with one of my Nvidia 8800GTSs, but I've got those in my main desktop. I'm hoping there was something I could get for much cheaper, and someone could confirm as working because I think officially the nvidia 8 series isn't supposed to be compatible with soft 15KHz.

[jonny5]

right now i am using an nvidia 5500fx(iirc) pci card...very old and it works a dream with soft15khz

ive just found a much higher compatibilty with nvidia cards vs ati...some say ati is good but none i have tried worked at all...they would let you install soft15khz, but wouldnt actually switch into 15khz mode

[c0dehunter]

I would like to bump this thread, and see if there is a new list of newer models available.

Based on

http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html

The RADEON HD5450 seem to work, and I have found some vendors that carry this model.

Thanks,

[Xyga]

I'd go for an ATI/AMD compatible with crt_emudriver, just to take fully advantage of GroovyMame (by far the best 15KHz build).

[bobrocks95]

I'd go for an ATI/AMD compatible with crt_emudriver, just to take fully advantage of GroovyMame (by far the best 15KHz build).

I'd recommend this as well, that's what I use in my MAME cab. According to the CRT_EmuDriver page an HD 4000 series card is recommended, and I'm using one in mine. I think it's like a 4750 or something. Higher than that and there are supposedly issues with the cards not supporting a low enough dot clock speed to run in some 15kHz modes. I got my card for around $50 on eBay, and that was like 2 years ago.

[cools]

IIRC everything up to the X600 are okay for really low dotclocks with the older version of CRT_Emudriver, then the HD 4xxx series are fine if you set the minimum dotclock to 8. The older cards will not work with Windows 7, and it's also not advised to use really low dotclocks with any of the cards - you get better centering of resolutions by using a higher dot clock with no difference in picture.

For the minimal cost of a HD 4350 it's well worth giving GroovyMAME a go. If you need more GPU power for other games then Soft15KHz is useful.

GroovyArcade (GM Linux Live CD) should work with most NVidia and ATi cards without any messing around, but you cannot get minimal input lag with it so the recommended setup is Windows + CRT_Emudriver.

[BazookaBen]

I was able to get 240p from an HD 7850 easily. There was a little too much overscan, but I'm sure if I messed with the settings in CRU I could get it right.

I'm not sure if you can get them to output c-sync though, so I used a BNC T-connector to join the H and V lines.

[c0dehunter]

I'd go for an ATI/AMD compatible with crt_emudriver, just to take fully advantage of GroovyMame (by far the best 15KHz build).

I'd recommend this as well, that's what I use in my MAME cab. According to the CRT_EmuDriver page an HD 4000 series card is recommended, and I'm using one in mine. I think it's like a 4750 or something. Higher than that and there are supposedly issues with the cards not supporting a low enough dot clock speed to run in some 15kHz modes. I got my card for around $50 on eBay, and that was like 2 years ago.

First of all, many thanks for providing the link for the CRT_Emu drivers, I was looking badly. I indeed have a system equipped with MSI Radeon HD4350 (the *exact* make and model as the programmer of CRT_Emu driver, the famed use named Calamity). I am about build another shmup retro system (desktop, not arcade cabinet) and I hunt high and low for a 4xxx series, until I find the exact same model as my other machine (this video card has 512MB video RAM however, but it is a MSI brand, same as the other one)

My original MSI HD 4350 card:

http://us.msi.com/product/vga/R4350MD1GD3HLP.html

My second card scored from eBay (should be arriving any day now):

http://us.msi.com/product/vga/R4350MD512HD3.html

[bobrocks95]

Not a problem, good luck on your build! The software (groovyMAME and crt_emudriver) took me quite some time to figure out, I hope you're a faster learner than I am with it.

[Fudoh]

Is the CRT Emudriver limited to Windows XP ?

If I was setting up a 15khz MAME rig using new components, I guess I would be running into problems with missing drivers for XP, wouldn't I ? Anybody know a recent Mini-ITX board that supports XP for all it's components ?

[cools]

No, there's a Windows 7 (beta) release now that works well. Some people have been having issues but I've seen no problems whatsoever with a standard setup.

[Fudoh]

could you point me to the W7 drivers ? On the site linked above I only see the XP drivers.

[cools]

Certainly. http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... msg1440986

Read the whole thread and take some notes - there are some glitches you need to work around that are documented subsequently.

[kamilz]

I was able to get 240p from an HD 7850 easily. There was a little too much overscan, but I'm sure if I messed with the settings in CRU I could get it right.

I'm not sure if you can get them to output c-sync though, so I used a BNC T-connector to join the H and V lines.

Thanks for the tip BazookaBen, thanks to you, with CRU's latest version
I managed to use my old Commodore 1084 CRT monitor with Windows 7 x64 on ATI 7850.
I added 4 resolutions (max allowed is 4).

Those :
256x224@60Hz
320x240@60Hz
384x224@60 (actually 59.something close to 60) for CPS1 and
640x480i 30Hz interlaced.

All works ok with my ATI 7850 Graphic card, which doesn't supported by Soft15Khz.
I added CRT as 2nd monitor, 1st one is LCD 1920x1080. This makes really good setup.

[rCadeGaming]

An HD4350 has no minimum dot clock, same as an X300-X600 or 9250. You just have to be careful which brand of HD4350 you get. ASUS and XFX are confirmed to work. Visiontek definitely does not work. Some just need their PCD ID added to CRT_Emudriver to work. I don't recall exactly, but MSI might be in that last category. Calamity is always helpful with any problems.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... 214.0.html

[BazookaBen]

Thanks for the tip BazookaBen, thanks to you, with CRU's latest version
I managed to use my old Commodore 1984 CTR monitor with Windows 7 x64 on ATI 7850.
I added 4 resolutions (max allowed is 4).

Cool. Did you have any overscan issues?

[kamilz]

Answer is yes and no.

This monitor highly customizable. It has vertical and horizontal size and positioning wheels.
So I can easily overcome most overscan issues.

For 640x480i, overscan is (at least for this monitor, Commodore 1084) seems not fully avoidable.

Before adjustment (or sometimes after) I use ATI Calayst's 'Image Adjustments (VGA Display)'
which become available after connecting CRT, to center pictures. I suggest do not use resizing here,
these may change resolution properties like frequency. But positioning L/R/U/D are seems safe.
Then I use wheels to avoid overscan.

PS.
I just tweaked some settings to make 320x240 perfect at 60Hertz.
It's close now 60.029 but this tweaking also affected horizontal sizing. Reason may be that I changed dot clock too.

So I think you are right about CRU tweaking. My suggestion is while tweaking keep Horizontal scan KHz close to 15.750.
And Vertical rate should be 50-60 Hz to display picture. 50 Hz are eye tiring. This is why I don't use 800x600 50Hz mode.

[BazookaBen]

Ok, so you didn't mess with the porch or other settings, just Vertical frequency?

[kamilz]

I mean, I messed almost every setting with CRU, but not with the ATI's "Image Adjustments".

It's better see yourself, here

320x240@60Hz a.k.a 240p:
This is not perfect, I'll try to make it 60.000 (actual), maybe you can help..?



384x224 for CPS1, I believe I did perfect settings here, as accordingly on Mame CPS1 Vertical Scan rate is 59.637



and 640x480i@59.94 which is perfect for NTSC settings which is 29.97 frame, 59.94 Hz interlaced.



For me Rules of thumb is keep vertical lines 262 on NTSC/60Hz systems. Mess with other settings like porch
(for PAL it was 312 or something... I'm not good with PAL settings and I don't like it, flickers more.)

[Fudoh]

384x224 for CPS1, I believe I did perfect settings here, as accordingly on Mame CPS1 Vertical Scan rate is 59.637

with a match like this between the refresh in MAME and what the driver settings tells you, is it REALLY possibly to run an emulated in game without any hint of tearing and without enabling v-sync or tripple buffering ?

[Xyga]

I think calamity claims GroovyMame does v-sync internally, or I didn't get what he wrote.
The framedelay option is then supposed to take care of reducing the latency as well as it can, which also depends on the set value.

[cools]

I'll see if I can find the post regarding it. I seem to recall Calamity saying that vsync was required even if the correct refresh rate was used.

[lettuce]

I think the older X (300-1200) range of ATI cards are regarded to be some of the best for soft 15khz as they have the lowest pixel clock/dot clock and support all the range of really low resolutions, 240x240 for example. I have the x600 and am very happy with it, also most of the x range are passive cooling so no annoying fan noise.

Be carful if using on a 15khz arcade monitor though as the boot screen wont be 15khz and will be 31khz and could damage an arcade monitor, its a good idea to maybe get a ArcadeVGA card (http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html) as these filter out 31khz modes in the boot process or get one of these J-PAC units to sit between your PC and monitor, http://www.ultimarc.com/jpac.html

EDIT: Sorry just noticed the age of the OP post

[cools]

An HD4350 has no minimum dot clock, same as an X300-X600 or 9250. You just have to be careful which brand of HD4350 you get. ASUS and XFX are confirmed to work. Visiontek definitely does not work. Some just need their PCD ID added to CRT_Emudriver to work. I don't recall exactly, but MSI might be in that last category. Calamity is always helpful with any problems.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... 214.0.html

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... msg1419702

We just set a minimum dotclock to force horizontal resolutions below a certain limit to be doubled (x2). This causes zero degradation to the picture and has the effect to double the accuracy on the calculations regarding horizontal porches, so the result is better horizontal centering (on average).

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... msg1419344

[kamilz]

384x224 for CPS1, I believe I did perfect settings here, as accordingly on Mame CPS1 Vertical Scan rate is 59.637

with a match like this between the refresh in MAME and what the driver settings tells you, is it REALLY possibly to run an emulated in game without any hint of tearing and without enabling v-sync or tripple buffering ?

Just tested a CPS1 game (cawing, lots of scrolling to test stammering), w/o vertical sync and triple buffering, there is screen tearing noticeable.
But smoothness in scrolling almost perfect. Almost no staggering (probably that tearing seldom causes some hard to notice stammering), but screen tearing is (for me) unacceptable.

With Vertical Sync, stammering increases, but if you are not perfectionist, you may not notice or even care.
No screen tearing of course.

Sync to Monitor Refresh ON, rest OFF (Vertical Sync and etc..): almost PERFECT, very rare stammering.

Triple Buffering ON, Refresh Speed ON, rest OFF: PERFECT!

[cools]

Heh, its the staggering I was never able to solve pre GroovyMAME.

Try tnzs.

[kamilz]

Heh, its the staggering I was never able to solve pre GroovyMAME.

Try tnzs.

It seems tnzs (the NewZeland story) 256x224 at 59.160 Hz and my (generic) settings on this resolution is 60.025
This causes noticeable staggering. This is kinda negligible for this game though.

But yes I believe nothing beats Groovymame with Calamity supported Graphic Card+drivers.