240 to 540p for SONY Trinitron KV-32HS510 HDCRT Dump Find

[Josh128]

...

Hey, moving from the RT5X thread for your issue with your XBR. Vol 2s links have some interesting info. Like this regarding 540p being handled as 1080i if you dont set HDPT=0 (or if your set doesnt have the circuitry needed to actually bypass??).

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/comput ... ts.270471/

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/signal ... vs.293741/

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direc ... hdtvs.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direc ... -crts.html

I'll get to your questions, montreal, but I just noticed something extremely weird today re 540p computer DVI input on my 34xbr800.


When HDPT=1, 540p scans interlaced, as though it were 1080i. No surprise there. However, when HDPT=0, 540p scans progressively! (with no jitter/flicker) on my TV, AND the signal type in the service menu is still registering as 1080i. Furthermore, DPSW does not disable the "new" progressive 540p.


So with the HDPT "bypass", these TV's seem to be smarter than I've given them credit for. I thought it would see all 33.75kHz signals the same and simply display them as interlaced 1080i. This is the way it seems to work when HDPT=1. But with HDPT=0, 540p scans progressively. So maybe the TV can sense something other than the horizontal scanrate to distinguish between an interlaced and progressive signal.... at least on a "bypassed" 33.75kHz signal.

To review:

HDPT=1

33.75kHz 1080i = interlaced scan

33.75kHz 540p = interlaced scan

And both 540p and 1080i can be disabled with DPSW=1

HDPT=0

33.75kHz 1080i = interlaced scan

33.75kHz 540p = progressive scan

And neither 540p nor 1080i can be disabled with DPSW=1

I also notice the same changes in PQ when switching HDPT from 1 to 0 with 540p as I did with 1080i. So I'm pretty sure that the HDPT "bypass" works for 540p as well, and it somehow preserves it's progressive scanning as well.
Regrettably, a 480p computer input seems to behave exactly the same as 480p from the DVD players. I.e. the HDPT "bypass" does not seem to work on it so far.

Also, the quote below may help with your particular set, though I definitely didnt need to be on the RF input on mine.

I agree that HDPT must be changed only when the selected input is RF (Video 1?).-- But note that you may also need to switch to the actual input you are feeding and/or do it there as well.

He didnt specify if he was using analog or digital inputs, but from other posts on those AVSforum links, it appears that using the analog ports is always more compatible and bypasses (at least some of) the circuitry needed for the digital to analog conversion that is necessary to drive the CRT. But notice the bolded parts. Either your HDPT=0 setting is not working, or something wonky is happening. Have you tried changing it while simutaneously displaying the 540p w/ scanlines signal? Do you see no changes?

[strayan]

Cool, looking forward to it! So your set doesnt have a digital in or component in, just straight RGBS via RCA? You have a converter to go from HDMI to that?

It is RGBHV not RGBs. My DAC can output RGBHV or RGBS though: https://www.extron.com/product/dvirgb100 (I also use this DAC to send RGBs to my GBSC).

It has component and RGBHV inputs. No digital inputs at all. You can see what it looks like here https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=345&v=g ... e=youtu.be

[incrediblehark]

...

Hey, moving from the RT5X thread for your issue with your XBR. Vol 2s links have some interesting info. Like this regarding 540p being handled as 1080i if you dont set HDPT=0 (or if your set doesnt have the circuitry needed to actually bypass??).

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direc ... hdtvs.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direc ... -crts.html

I'll get to your questions, montreal, but I just noticed something extremely weird today re 540p computer DVI input on my 34xbr800.

I also notice the same changes in PQ when switching HDPT from 1 to 0 with 540p as I did with 1080i. So I'm pretty sure that the HDPT "bypass" works for 540p as well, and it somehow preserves it's progressive scanning as well.
Regrettably, a 480p computer input seems to behave exactly the same as 480p from the DVD players. I.e. the HDPT "bypass" does not seem to work on it so far.

Also, the quote below may help with your particular set, though I definitely didnt need to be on the RF input on mine.

I agree that HDPT must be changed only when the selected input is RF (Video 1?).-- But note that you may also need to switch to the actual input you are feeding and/or do it there as well.

He didnt specify if he was using analog or digital inputs, but from other posts on those AVSforum links, it appears that using the analog ports is always more compatible and bypasses (at least some of) the circuitry needed for the digital to analog conversion that is necessary to drive the CRT. But notice the bolded parts. Either your HDPT=0 setting is not working, or something wonky is happening. Have you tried changing it while simutaneously displaying the 540p w/ scanlines signal? Do you see no changes?

Thanks Vol.2 for the links and Josh128 for the help! I had a chance to read through a lot of those pages and follow some links, and I have come to the conclusion that indeed my 40XBR800 does not have the bypass circuit installed, unfortunately. So no 540p for me It looks as though, according to the AVS forums that some models of the 40xbr800 that were manufactured between 10/2002 and 12/2002 did not have the proper circuit installed on the B board. Of course, mine had to have been made in November 2002... The only way the HDPT switch will actually work for me is if I replace the B board or install the necessary components on mine. An IC is mentioned but not sure what else would be needed as I haven't dug into service manuals etc. The link to the fix is mentioned on AVS Forums below:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/vertic ... st-2108018

So I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that a 1080i mode will become available sometime for the retrotink 5x pro. 480p does work really well and there was a lot of speculation that these models could handle it natively but I'm skeptical. Nothing was confirmed either way in the posts I read from 2003. Even still it wouldn't matter because that signal also gets processed so I wouldn't benefit from the lower lag without being able to bypass.

Josh, regarding the lightgun testing that was discussed in the 5x thread: I was very close to having success with the Sega Saturn Stunner. Because I can't do anything more in this area if you're interested I can send you a lightgun to test out on your set so we can have some definitive testing. I read that you're getting a Guncon as well but I'd be very surprised if it worked.


- Last notes to this post -

The Portta HDMI to Component converter worked exactly like my Aliexpress one, just build quality seemed a little better. For anyone looking to save $8 and willing to wait 3 months

In the Service menu, I found that in ID 7 if you change the value to an odd number it "unlocks" some features of the regular menu. For example I set mine from 24 to 25. By this I mean it appears to make the 4:3 set think that it is widescreen, and there are more picture adjustments and zoom/fill/normal/wide settings available. It also added vertical shift to go with tilt in the menu. I haven't noticed any downside to this as I still get a full screen in 480p with uniformity but also get more options for adjusting the picture.

[Josh128]

So I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that a 1080i mode will become available sometime for the retrotink 5x pro. 480p does work really well and there was a lot of speculation that these models could handle it natively but I'm skeptical. Nothing was confirmed either way in the posts I read from 2003. Even still it wouldn't matter because that signal also gets processed so I wouldn't benefit from the lower lag without being able to bypass.

Josh, regarding the lightgun testing that was discussed in the 5x thread: I was very close to having success with the Sega Saturn Stunner. Because I can't do anything more in this area if you're interested I can send you a lightgun to test out on your set so we can have some definitive testing. I read that you're getting a Guncon as well but I'd be very surprised if it worked.

Man, sorry to hear that. If you dont have the proper bypass hardware in your set, you are right, 1080i wont help, in fact, it has more lag than 720p or 480p, which give you the best non-HDPT input lag. Looking at my results below, you get 14.7ms with either while 1080i gives you 31ms. That being the case, from my previous testing, the GBS-C maybe the best scaler for you. Its 480p is great, switches from 480i to 240p seamlessly, and its "bob" + scanlines (tunable) gives perfect 480i look on HD CRTs. True, the 5X can give you the same, but the GBS-C is cheaper, doesnt require a component converter, and is even faster than the 5X in framelocked mode. Its basically somewhere around 0.65ms of added lag. In the picture at the bottom, Im chaining the TS through a VGA converter to the GBS-C outputting 480p to the TV, and as you can see, the results are 14.7ms (zero added lag) compared to straight TS in at 480p HDMI to the set.

As far as the light gun, the fact that you had any success at all with a non - working HDPT mode is pretty impressive. Thanks for the offer but I did order a GunCon 2 for testing. I plan to test it with the 5X on the HD CRT vs the GBS-C on my VGA monitor (which has even lower lag, I believe). So we'll see. TBH I expect it to work, but maybe with reduced accuracy. We'll see.



GBS-C outputting 480p results:

[BazookaBen]

Incredibleshark, you should really look into building that bypass circuit. It's probably easier than you think.

When I did an s-video mod to an old Sony, all I had to do was populate the appropriate spots on the board for missing resistors and caps, as well as one IC that was available for $0.50 on DigiKey. Then I changed one setting in the service menu.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's a similar process on your set to restore HDPT.

[incrediblehark]

BazookaBen:
I am thinking about it, you're probably right that it wouldn't be too difficult to do, and I don't think I'll find another fully populated B board out in the wild anytime soon. The thread I linked mentioned a vertical bar sweeping effect on these sets when in 1080i, I haven't noticed it yet but if so would be another driving factor for me to do this mod. The main thing that holds me back is the size of this tv... If I can remove the back panel without lifting the set I may make an attempt. Just my luck I'd end up with one of these models without hdpt bypass.

Josh128:
Thanks for the advice, I already have the 5x so I'll just stick with that for now. The lag isn't really noticeable for me in 480p and the picture looks great with the 5x. The things that have made me hesitant to get a GBS-C are the screen tearing and interference I've read about. I also like that the 5x has S-Video and Composite built in.
Looking forward to seeing your Guncon results, if its a success then I can assume the Saturn lightgun will work as its not as precise as the guncon.

[Josh128]

BazookaBen:
I am thinking about it, you're probably right that it wouldn't be too difficult to do, and I don't think I'll find another fully populated B board out in the wild anytime soon. The thread I linked mentioned a vertical bar sweeping effect on these sets when in 1080i, I haven't noticed it yet but if so would be another driving factor for me to do this mod. The main thing that holds me back is the size of this tv... If I can remove the back panel without lifting the set I may make an attempt. Just my luck I'd end up with one of these models without hdpt bypass.

Josh128:
Thanks for the advice, I already have the 5x so I'll just stick with that for now. The lag isn't really noticeable for me in 480p and the picture looks great with the 5x. The things that have made me hesitant to get a GBS-C are the screen tearing and interference I've read about. I also like that the 5x has S-Video and Composite built in.
Looking forward to seeing your Guncon results, if its a success then I can assume the Saturn lightgun will work as its not as precise as the guncon.

You should be able to remove the back without lifting the set. I removed the back off of my 36" SD Wega earlier this year and it comes off without lifting the set. Should be the same for all Sony's, at least. I agree with Ben, if you can obtain the parts and have a guide that you can follow, it would be a fun project. You have a pretty unique MONSTER in your possession. Taking off the back would also allow for you to check the focus on the flyback as well as adjusting the H-stat pot and adding convergence strips and/or magnets in strategic places to tweak the picture. I have some ultraperm permalloy and some thin plastic that I made strips with earlier this year, and they worked quite well. If you want to have a few on hand while you have the back off, I can mail you a few, I'd just have to build some to send you. I also have a few 1 cm x 1.5mm button neodymium mags I could send too. You can use those to tweak purity by taping in strategic spots around the back of the tube. Just let me know if you are up for it.

About the GBS-C, some people apparently have issues, but mine has been beautiful and perfect thus far. I've never had a single screen tear, jitter, or anything like that and Ive used it on both a VGA monitor and my 36" HD Trin. Fun project that cost me about $31 or so in total, and my best friend printed the kick ass case for free. I'm a big fan of the GBS-C.

[Hoagtech]

@josh128

Since you have the 5x and I don’t. I was hoping someone could run a test of House of the Dead 2 on Dreamcast to see if 480 lightgun games are supported.

On My Megaview. 15khz light gun games work great but 480p do not work for some reason.

[anexanhume]

Since requested, I am attaching the DA-4 chassis block diagram (30/34XBR955/960) that shows the HDPT path.



You can follow the signal path from top [Video7 - HDMI]. It taps to bypass the ATSC/HDMI switch and goes to IC2006. The YPbCr output goes directly to IC3413, which passes to the RGB amps. Similarly, the sync comes out of IC2006 and goes into a mux IC2010. The output of that mux then bypasses the ADC block passing sync to the digital IC and goes directly to IC3413. This is the path selected when HDPT = 1.

Component passes through the V5/V6 switch before going to IN2 on IC2006, then should be able to take the same path if it's 33KHz.

[Josh128]

@Hoagtech: I dont have a DC lightgun but just got a GunCon 2 in today. Will test soon.

@anexanhume: Looking at the diagram there, I dont see any reason why component input would be any more latent than HDMI. With HDPT enabled, the DRC processor is bypassed and both HDMI and component hit the CXA2171. Without HDPT enabled, both signals hit the DRC circuit and thats where the lag comes in. How much additional lag have you measured and where do you think its coming from?

[anexanhume]

@Hoagtech: I dont have a DC lightgun but just got a GunCon 2 in today. Will test soon.

@anexanhume: Looking at the diagram there, I dont see any reason why component input would be any more latent than HDMI. With HDPT enabled, the DRC processor is bypassed and both HDMI and component hit the CXA2171. Without HDPT enabled, both signals hit the DRC circuit and thats where the lag comes in. How much additional lag have you measured and where do you think its coming from?

I have not personally tested (don’t have a time sleuth yet). Going off of others’ results.

Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... ame=iossmf

[Bahn Yuki]

Since requested, I am attaching the DA-4 chassis block diagram (30/34XBR955/960) that shows the HDPT path.



You can follow the signal path from top [Video7 - HDMI]. It taps to bypass the ATSC/HDMI switch and goes to IC2006. The YPbCr output goes directly to IC3413, which passes to the RGB amps. Similarly, the sync comes out of IC2006 and goes into a mux IC2010. The output of that mux then bypasses the ADC block passing sync to the digital IC and goes directly to IC3413. This is the path selected when HDPT = 1.

Component passes through the V5/V6 switch before going to IN2 on IC2006, then should be able to take the same path if it's 33KHz.

Impressive finds. So for someone who's using HDPT and DPSW(alternate 1080i mode) on his 960s, what results are you getting from the Retrotink 5X new 540p mode?

[anexanhume]

Since requested, I am attaching the DA-4 chassis block diagram (30/34XBR955/960) that shows the HDPT path.

You can follow the signal path from top [Video7 - HDMI]. It taps to bypass the ATSC/HDMI switch and goes to IC2006. The YPbCr output goes directly to IC3413, which passes to the RGB amps. Similarly, the sync comes out of IC2006 and goes into a mux IC2010. The output of that mux then bypasses the ADC block passing sync to the digital IC and goes directly to IC3413. This is the path selected when HDPT = 1.

Component passes through the V5/V6 switch before going to IN2 on IC2006, then should be able to take the same path if it's 33KHz.

Impressive finds. So for someone who's using HDPT and DPSW(alternate 1080i mode) on his 960s, what results are you getting from the Retrotink 5X new 540p mode?

I don’t have a 5x yet. I only became interested once Mike added 540p.

[jjm028]

So I checked out the 540p from the tink5x / component converter on my 30-HS420, and I was super duper impressed. I had never even considered playing 240p on this tv before that, but it looked and played awesome.


This got me thinking about setting up a custom 540p resolution on my Mister. After a lot of digging, I finally got a modeline that held sync. It is a 1920x540 resolution. What's strange is that the aspect ratio of the menu core is perfect, but console cores are basically 1/2 of their proper width ... I worked around this by making a 8:3 custom aspect ratio to stretch it back out. If anyone has any experience with 540p from the Mister's HDMI, definitely let me know. Hopefully 540p gains some popularity in the future and we wont have to do this technical stuff to have native resolution on these screens haha.

[nes.og]

I discovered that the Extron 301 HD zooms 540P by default but you can disable. I like that I can do resizing with it without going into the service menu which is also a benefit for 480P anamorphic widescreen games on a widescreen HDCRT since default to “full view”.

I’ll compare lag to the RT5X at 540P but was wondering if the lack of 540P on the Time Slueth will skew the results? I know that 540P is 1080i but the same is true of 240P and 480i yet the Tome Slueth has a 240P option.

[Josh128]

So I checked out the 540p from the tink5x / component converter on my 30-HS420, and I was super duper impressed. I had never even considered playing 240p on this tv before that, but it looked and played awesome.


This got me thinking about setting up a custom 540p resolution on my Mister. After a lot of digging, I finally got a modeline that held sync. It is a 1920x540 resolution. What's strange is that the aspect ratio of the menu core is perfect, but console cores are basically 1/2 of their proper width ... I worked around this by making a 8:3 custom aspect ratio to stretch it back out. If anyone has any experience with 540p from the Mister's HDMI, definitely let me know. Hopefully 540p gains some popularity in the future and we wont have to do this technical stuff to have native resolution on these screens haha.

It does look great indeed, and with less than 3.25ms (240p/480i source) or 1.6ms (480p source)! Its the real deal.

So you got 540p working via HDMI? Do you mind posting the working modeline here? Maybe Mike can look at the differences in his timings in the current 540p RT5X mode vs what you have and possibly move to those timings in a later update. It could potentially eliminate the need for the component converter that seems to be almost universally required to get the mode working on these Sony HD CRTs at this time.

I’ll compare lag to the RT5X at 540P but was wondering if the lack of 540P on the Time Slueth will skew the results? I know that 540P is 1080i but the same is true of 240P and 480i yet the Time Slueth has a 240P option.

The output res of the TS doesnt matter to the TV as far as lag is concerned, because you arent feeding the TV with the TS. You are feeding either the RT5X or your Extron, and either of them have to feed the TV either 1080i or 540p for zero lag mode (with HDPT=0). I've already tested a TS feeding an RT5X, feeding the TV 540p in zero lag mode, the results are below. You can change the output res on the TS to anything you want, if the RT5X can accept it, it will convert to 540p at its output. The lag differences seen there are processing differences in the RT5X for different input resolutions. 480p is the fastest followed by 480i and 240p.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67984&start=1095

[nes.og]

Thanks for the info!

[Bahn Yuki]

So I checked out the 540p from the tink5x / component converter on my 30-HS420, and I was super duper impressed. I had never even considered playing 240p on this tv before that, but it looked and played awesome.


This got me thinking about setting up a custom 540p resolution on my Mister. After a lot of digging, I finally got a modeline that held sync. It is a 1920x540 resolution. What's strange is that the aspect ratio of the menu core is perfect, but console cores are basically 1/2 of their proper width ... I worked around this by making a 8:3 custom aspect ratio to stretch it back out. If anyone has any experience with 540p from the Mister's HDMI, definitely let me know. Hopefully 540p gains some popularity in the future and we wont have to do this technical stuff to have native resolution on these screens haha.

Can you provide us with the video mode? I'm trying to work on this now.

[nes.og]

Can you provide us with the video mode? I'm trying to work on this now.

Try using a CVT calculator with and without reduced blanking if necessary.

[Bahn Yuki]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[nes.og]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help.

I don’t know all the parameters but can tell you that the RT5X uses a 1920x540 resolution so use that with CVT if you have been trying 960x540.

[ShadowofBob]

Great info on this thread. The Component vs DVI/HDMI lag tests are interesting given the processing diagram just posted. I would have guessed the analog would have had less lag. I looked into a lot of this a while ago when I got my KD-36XS955 and have enjoyed using it even with the 1 frame of lag with my OSSC for 240p upscale at 2x an 480p content. Using my Xbox 360 set at 1080i and no lag has also been great sans letter boxing. Has anyone here tried the 540p Retrotink 5X feature on a 4:3 HD CRT? Curious if the TV treats is like 1080i content and displays it in 16:9 letterbox or treats is as fullscreen 4:3.

Glad others are finally discovering these underrated sets despite their minor pitfalls.

[Josh128]

Has anyone here tried the 540p Retrotink 5X feature on a 4:3 HD CRT? Curious if the TV treats is like 1080i content and displays it in 16:9 letterbox or treats is as fullscreen 4:3.

Glad others are finally discovering these underrated sets despite their minor pitfalls.

I did the initial testing and posted in the RT5X thread. Below is what it looks like before adjustments in the SM.

[mikechi2]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help.

I don’t know all the parameters but can tell you that the RT5X uses a 1920x540 resolution so use that with CVT if you have been trying 960x540.

The RT5X outputs 1920 x 540 using the exact same timings as 1080i except without the interlace offset (so 562 lines/frame instead of 562.5 lines/field). The same trick that turns 480i into 240p.

[nes.og]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help

I don't have a Mister but this should be it:

video_mode=1920,88,44,148,540,2,5,15,74250

You'll most likely need to use a HDMI to component adapter if you aren't already.

[Bahn Yuki]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help

I don't have a Mister but this should be it:

video_mode=1920,88,44,148,540,2,5,15,74250

You'll most likely need to use a HDMI to component adapter if you aren't already.

Ok that worked, but only one of my of 960s worked over component. I'm still curious about hdmi timings. Also I'm having same aspect ratio issues as other poster had. So it's nice to see it actually does work.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[nes.og]

Ok that worked, but only one of my of 960s worked over component. I'm still curious about hdmi timings. Also I'm having same aspect ratio issues as other poster had. So it's nice to see it actually does work.

So you’re welcome? lol

Same timings for HDMI homie. Most HDCRTs won’t sync 540P over HDMI, just component. In my case my Panasonic will but not my Phillips or Sony.

[incrediblehark]

Been working on other side projects etc, but since school has started and my kids are out of the house for a good part of the day I was able to open up my 40XBR800 and inspect the B board. Here are some poorly taken photos of the board:

Spoiler

I tried to get close up shots of all of the missing components for the sake of comparison to others that have the HDPT bypass circuit correctly installed. There are a lot of things missing from this board, I'm unsure of what is exactly related to the bypass circuit though as I haven't really looked too deep into the service manual schematics.

I will say though that for me personally, looking at this up close I know what my limits are in terms of my soldering skills and workspace/equipment. I feel comfortable doing caps and could probably do the small resistors but the ICs are not something I think I could do reliably. As of now I'm going to stick with how it is and try to look for a proper B board, unless there's someone willing to take on the project and do the soldering for me (which I would gladly pay for).

At any rate, I hope that this information will be helpful to anyone else out there trying to find solutions to this specific problem.

[BazookaBen]

Same timings for HDMI homie. Most HDCRTs won’t sync 540P over HDMI, just component. In my case my Panasonic will but not my Phillips or Sony.

So you have quite a few HDCRTs it seems!

You could provide the community with some really useful information on those Philips and Panasonic sets. Like input lag figures for 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i.

Also, I'm curious how they display 480p signals. Line for line in a stretched raster, like a Sony, or some other method. Maybe even switching to a native 31kHz?

[Josh128]

incrediblehark - that looks like a crapload of unpopulated components. I wonder if thats all needed in addition to the IC to get the HDPT working? Hot air/SMD rework stations off of Amazon are cheap and I really like the one I use. Very no nonsense and it does the job. Surface mount soldering is super easy with some hot air, tweezers, flux, and a magnifying glass. But if you need all of those components populated that would be a pretty big job. Not just the soldering part but making sure you get all the right parts in all the right places.