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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:39 am 


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Joined: 29 Apr 2021
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parodius wrote:

That link doesn’t explain what genlock is.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:43 am 



Joined: 11 May 2021
Posts: 1075
Location: Tokyo
EnragedWhale wrote:
It doesn’t. It’s reporting the buffer lag, not total lag and is labelled as such. It says right there in the firmware update notes. I can’t imagine it’s possible to do triple buffer any faster. Everyone should be using genlock or frame lock anyway assuming their display can handle it. Triple buffer is a compatibility mode, but even then is still very low lag.

Does the triple buffer not cause the lag, seeing as the lag is specifically only there when the triple buffer is active? In that case it should definitely say that it has more than a few ms of lag with the triple buffer active.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:27 am 



Joined: 21 Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Location: UK
Steven wrote:
EnragedWhale wrote:
It doesn’t. It’s reporting the buffer lag, not total lag and is labelled as such. It says right there in the firmware update notes. I can’t imagine it’s possible to do triple buffer any faster. Everyone should be using genlock or frame lock anyway assuming their display can handle it. Triple buffer is a compatibility mode, but even then is still very low lag.

Does the triple buffer not cause the lag, seeing as the lag is specifically only there when the triple buffer is active? In that case it should definitely say that it has more than a few ms of lag with the triple buffer active.


The buffer lag readout is there at all times and doesn’t change when you switch between the different frame output modes. It’s the base lag that the RT5X requires to achieve the scaling you’ve selected. It’s the exact lag you’ll get in frame or gen lock modes. Remember the RT5X is a upscaler, not a line doubler so it needs a few more ms than an OSSC etc.

Triple buffer adds lags on top of this which is unavoidable due to the nature of how triple buffering works.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:29 am 



Joined: 21 Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Location: UK
parodius wrote:
EnragedWhale wrote:
apparently Genlock + VRR is immune to sync drops when changing resolutions on some displays.

Do you know if this applies to comp/s-vid only or RGB/YPbPr as well?


I don’t sorry. I’d test it for you but I have a launch RT5X without genlock.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:33 am 



Joined: 21 Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Location: UK
Shake Your Rump wrote:
This seems to be the only forum discussing this device outside of Reddit (or discord).

After all this time, anyone want to share their preferred CRT mask settings? I’ve tinkered a bit, but always come back to the default PVM600 settings. Currently playing Wild Arms on the PS1 and was surprised that I actually like the “consumer-2” settings.

What are you folks using for 240p mask effects?


I also like the PVM600 settings but I bump colour up by one. I even use it on 480p/576p sources as I like the texture it gives although it’s probably in no way authentic.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:34 am 



Joined: 11 May 2021
Posts: 1075
Location: Tokyo
EnragedWhale wrote:
Steven wrote:
EnragedWhale wrote:
It doesn’t. It’s reporting the buffer lag, not total lag and is labelled as such. It says right there in the firmware update notes. I can’t imagine it’s possible to do triple buffer any faster. Everyone should be using genlock or frame lock anyway assuming their display can handle it. Triple buffer is a compatibility mode, but even then is still very low lag.

Does the triple buffer not cause the lag, seeing as the lag is specifically only there when the triple buffer is active? In that case it should definitely say that it has more than a few ms of lag with the triple buffer active.


The buffer lag readout is there at all times and doesn’t change when you switch between the different frame output modes. It’s the base lag that the RT5X requires to achieve the scaling you’ve selected. It’s the exact lag you’ll get in frame or gen lock modes. Remember the RT5X is a upscaler, not a line doubler so it needs a few more ms than an OSSC etc.

Triple buffer adds lags on top of this which is unavoidable due to the nature of how triple buffering works.

That's what I'm saying; it says buffer lag, but it's not actually displaying the lag that is caused by the triple buffer, so perhaps it should be renamed to something else.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:13 am 



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 350
Shake Your Rump wrote:
This seems to be the only forum discussing this device outside of Reddit (or discord).

After all this time, anyone want to share their preferred CRT mask settings? I’ve tinkered a bit, but always come back to the default PVM600 settings. Currently playing Wild Arms on the PS1 and was surprised that I actually like the “consumer-2” settings.

What are you folks using for 240p mask effects?

I greatly prefer Shadow Mask to any of the other presets. PVM600 is probably second for me, but the (black) scanlines are too heavy for my taste.

I haven't spent enough time playing with the individual settings to possibly get something I like more.

I don't like the look of actual BVM or PVM CRTs with the razor-sharp scanlines and large spacing, and prefer the look of an RGB arcade monitor or similar. The larger PVMs like the 25" and 27" are fine too but they don't look like what people generally mean when they say "PVM". I have a JVC DT-V1710CG and I hate the picture on it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:26 pm 



Joined: 19 Jan 2023
Posts: 3
EnragedWhale wrote:
I also like the PVM600 settings but I bump colour up by one. I even use it on 480p/576p sources as I like the texture it gives although it’s probably in no way authentic.


For a while now, I’ve been using the settings someone posted here long ago that is essentially the PVM600 preset with colour up one and pre-emphasis down two. It’s pretty nice looking.

I’m a big fan of 1080(over), so I can’t use the setting for 480i/p PS2 games, as the image doesn’t scale properly. I actually went for a month or so using the PVM scanlines on my PS2 until I finally realized why my games had these weird bright lines going through the image. It was due to the uneven scaling with scanlines.

cfx wrote:
I greatly prefer Shadow Mask to any of the other presets. PVM600 is probably second for me, but the (black) scanlines are too heavy for my taste.

I haven't spent enough time playing with the individual settings to possibly get something I like more.

I don't like the look of actual BVM or PVM CRTs with the razor-sharp scanlines and large spacing, and prefer the look of an RGB arcade monitor or similar. The larger PVMs like the 25" and 27" are fine too but they don't look like what people generally mean when they say "PVM". I have a JVC DT-V1710CG and I hate the picture on it.


The thing about the PVM600 preset that got me using it is that, other than the pixel shape, it looks extremely similar to my 27” Sony FV310. The FV310 preset on the RetroTink nails the weird pixel shape, but the aperture grille and scanlines of the PVM600 preset more closely match the CRT.

I guess the screen size makes quite a difference. I mean, on a CRT, the scanlines would be different thicknesses based on physical screen size. The RetroTink doesn’t take this into consideration. It would be neat if a physical screen size could be entered into the settings, and the proper characteristics are calculated. I guess we just have to eyeball it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:59 pm 



Joined: 19 Jan 2023
Posts: 3
Odolwa wrote:
parodius wrote:

That link doesn’t explain what genlock is.


From what I have gathered:
Frame lock uses the clock signal from the console. Gen lock detects the clock signal, but creates its own, matching, clock signal instead. This has the benefit of being more stable.

My experience is that you can use "gen lock" instead of "triple buffer" for a rock-solid image. Even the 240p to 480i video switching is solid.

Paraphrasing from a recent interview with Mike: triple buffer is there if you absolutely need it, but gen lock is the ideal setting now.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:21 pm 


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Location: Kentucky
Steven wrote:
That's what I'm saying; it says buffer lag, but it's not actually displaying the lag that is caused by the triple buffer, so perhaps it should be renamed to something else.


I'd agree, if there's going to be a lag measurement displayed to the user ideally it should be the total lag of the entire processing chain. If that's not possible and it's always going to be right around 4ms I think we're going to have confused people using triple buffer and not understanding the downsides. Not that it's a huge deal for people who look into it enough to care- triple buffer is certainly the most compatible and I think the 5X ships with it on by default?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:52 pm 


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Is Gen Lock ideal in most situations? Does it look better than Framelock? Would you use it in place of Framelock or just in place of Triple Buffer Mode? Why does Gen Lock not work on older versions of the RT5X?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:42 pm 



Joined: 11 Nov 2013
Posts: 374
Odolwa wrote:
Why does Gen Lock not work on older versions of the RT5X?


lmgtfy

Hardware revision for launch devices makes it incompatible.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:19 pm 



Joined: 21 Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Location: UK
Odolwa wrote:
Is Gen Lock ideal in most situations? Does it look better than Framelock? Would you use it in place of Framelock or just in place of Triple Buffer Mode? Why does Gen Lock not work on older versions of the RT5X?


Mike said on Bob’s stream that most people should use Gen Lock. It’s functionally the same as frame lock but more compatible. If you used frame lock before with no issues then you won’t observe any difference, but it is more resistant to signal drops and may also enable faster re syncing on resolution changes depending on your display.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:09 pm 



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 350
Shake Your Rump wrote:
I guess the screen size makes quite a difference. I mean, on a CRT, the scanlines would be different thicknesses based on physical screen size. The RetroTink doesn’t take this into consideration. It would be neat if a physical screen size could be entered into the settings, and the proper characteristics are calculated. I guess we just have to eyeball it.

I don't know if that's true, but even if it is, it is not why the PVM-2530 or PVM-2950 look different than the others. They're not the same type of monitor, and were much less expensive costing only about $1500 when new--I know because I bought one back then, though I might not remember exactly. I don't know the specs but I'm sure the TVL ratings were lower. As far as I know, no one made a picture tube of the type used in BVMs or smaller PVMs in that large of a size, at least not until the HD CRTs came along.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:24 pm 


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which system/cable connection shines the brightest for y'all on the 5x pro and what basic settings?

generic or optimal phase, h sampling, and scanlines or not


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:44 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1908
generic+scanlines or bust


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:17 pm 



Joined: 11 Nov 2013
Posts: 374
@Odolwa, the RetroTink 5X wiki is surprisingly useful. And it does go into detail on the different lock features and mechanisms.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:24 am 


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Posts: 361
SavagePencil wrote:
@Odolwa, the RetroTink 5X wiki is surprisingly useful. And it does go into detail on the different lock features and mechanisms.


Thanks for the link, but man, tons of misinformation in the PSP section. Who wrote this crap?

Quote:
The specific model of PSP you're using will determine whether it's capable of Video Out, and to what extent:

The original PSP model (PSP-1000) and the PSP Street (PSP-E1000) do not support Video Out.
The PSP-2000 is capable of Video Out, but only using Component cables. PSone Classics can also not be played using Video Out on this model.
The PSP-3000 can do Video Out using Composite, S-Video and Component cables, including with PSone Classics.
The PSP Go is also capable of Video Out for all content, but only when using an official dock. Because of this, it requires a different cable.


Correct info & rant in spoiler tag:
Spoiler: show
PSP-2000s CAN use composite and s-video for PS1 games as well as all the XMB stuff (you know, photos, music, videos) and UMD video, but PSP games required component. Just tested this all right now; I hooked up a PSP-2004 through composite on my CRT during a PS1 game, then held the screen button for a few seconds and the picture switched to the CRT, no borders or anything. I'm kind of impressed by the no borders part because when I exited to the XMB, the screen mode was still at 16:9. As for the UMD video test, in full disclosure, when I tested UMD video through composite, it was actually through the CFW ISO video mount because that particular UMD drive was broken and I didn't have any UMD videos from wherever the "4" in PSP-2004 is. But that's exactly the same as loading the UMD (i.e. it has its own bootup sequence into the UMD menu; you're not just playing a video file).

PSPgo doesn't need the dock for video out! The cable plugs in the bottom of the PSPgo just fine. But you need the dock if you want to have video out and play while charging, especially with a paired Sixaxis or Dualshock, because the Bluetooth connectivity isn't doing the already smaller battery life of the PSPgo any favors.


Anyway, since we still have no "official" PSP preset from Mike, it seems a bunch of us are independently looking for the best PSP settings on the RT5X, especially if they need to be changed with each firmware as this dude suggests. I'm not the only one who's not completely satisfied with Wobbling Pixel's settings; I don't mind cropping the gameplay area a bit if it means no black borders at all, for example. Here are my old settings. I just took a screenshot of the menu in WipEout Pure with the OSSC preset first, and I tried to match my RT5X to that.

One thing I'm damn sure of is I'm keeping "V Size" at +60% no matter what. It might crop a little bit of the picture on the top and bottom, but that's the only size at which BVM scanlines still look correct (at least at Generic 4:3), which has to mean... something. I dunno, I got the idea from FirebrandX's OSSC video from 2017.


To do:
  • Find best zoom/crop/stretch values for all those PSP compilations with "pixel perfect" modes (I've found I'm going to need at least two of these)
  • Revisit Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions 240p patch with RT5X


Last edited by Triple Lei on Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:15 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
generic+scanlines or bust


right but which scanline setting? :D


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