Fudoh's ode to old display technology

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tongshadow
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

Im surprised by how none of you have yet broke a ring set or yoke neck assembly due to the amount of fiddling on aged and brittle plastic.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

Josh128 wrote:The XCV should have an allen-screw insert that can be rotated which moves it into and out of the coil core. I've adjusted on my 36" SD and it does what its supposed to. Its subtle, so you need to be very meticulous when you adjust it.
So you don't touch that clip on the end there? Good to know. Do you think it would help my issue?

tongshadow wrote:Im surprised by how none of you have yet broke a ring set or yoke neck assembly due to the amount of fiddling on aged and brittle plastic.
That is a worry, that's why I'm always gentle with it. The yoke plastic is pretty sturdy, but I've heard of people fiddling with the rings so much that they basically become loose and won't stay put anymore. I haven't touched the rings on my set though other than the back set which can help with the 'Trinitron Sag' issue.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

Was told not to use an allen key for XCV, but to order a plastic tool for it. YMMV, be gentle for sure.

Is your problem XBV maybe? If so you get to choose between good static convergence or good dynamic convergence: viewtopic.php?p=1495109#p1495109

Having done all the adjustments available on my set, I am utterly amazed these were ever mass produced. It's a game of almosts, fiddling with adjustments that affect other adjustments, and slapping magnets on things just to get it to an okay enough state that most customers wouldn't complain.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

bobrocks95 wrote:Was told not to use an allen key for XCV, but to order a plastic tool for it. YMMV, be gentle for sure.

Is your problem XBV maybe? If so you get to choose between good static convergence or good dynamic convergence: viewtopic.php?p=1495109#p1495109

Having done all the adjustments available on my set, I am utterly amazed these were ever mass produced. It's a game of almosts, fiddling with adjustments that affect other adjustments, and slapping magnets on things just to get it to an okay enough state that most customers wouldn't complain.
Where is the XBV adjust? Many of these adjustments are new to me. I don't seem to have one of those plates to slide out.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

Tempest_2084 wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Was told not to use an allen key for XCV, but to order a plastic tool for it. YMMV, be gentle for sure.

Is your problem XBV maybe? If so you get to choose between good static convergence or good dynamic convergence: viewtopic.php?p=1495109#p1495109

Having done all the adjustments available on my set, I am utterly amazed these were ever mass produced. It's a game of almosts, fiddling with adjustments that affect other adjustments, and slapping magnets on things just to get it to an okay enough state that most customers wouldn't complain.
Where is the XBV adjust? Many of these adjustments are new to me. I don't seem to have one of those plates to slide out.
There is no XBV adjustment on most sets, it's affected by the static vertical convergence rings. So for my set I got to choose either perfect static with blue sagging down on the left and right a bit, or perfect dynamic with blue too high in the middle. Best is probably a balanced setting with both slightly off, like I was saying, though in the end I opted for perfect static convergence over dynamic for XBV.

Sliding plate is for TLH which is in the screenshot you posted. I didn't notice that it did a whole lot.

https://elektrotanya.com/sony_crt-01_cr ... nload.html

This manual has a section starting at page 17 with pictures for each convergence adjustment and which models offer what adjustment points. You'll see that XBR sets include some more digital adjustment for certain things that lower-tier sets do not offer. For example YBH and CBH, both related to horizontal convergence, can only be adjusted with the H-Stat pot on most Sony sets, which will in turn affect static horizontal converge negatively, but XBR sets have a separate adjustment available.

Example from service menu for XBR800 chassis:
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

bobrocks95 wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Was told not to use an allen key for XCV, but to order a plastic tool for it. YMMV, be gentle for sure.

Is your problem XBV maybe? If so you get to choose between good static convergence or good dynamic convergence: viewtopic.php?p=1495109#p1495109

Having done all the adjustments available on my set, I am utterly amazed these were ever mass produced. It's a game of almosts, fiddling with adjustments that affect other adjustments, and slapping magnets on things just to get it to an okay enough state that most customers wouldn't complain.
Where is the XBV adjust? Many of these adjustments are new to me. I don't seem to have one of those plates to slide out.
There is no XBV adjustment on most sets, it's affected by the static vertical convergence rings. So for my set I got to choose either perfect static with blue sagging down on the left and right a bit, or perfect dynamic with blue too high in the middle. Best is probably a balanced setting with both slightly off, like I was saying, though in the end I opted for perfect static convergence over dynamic for XBV.

Sliding plate is for TLH which is in the screenshot you posted. I didn't notice that it did a whole lot.

https://elektrotanya.com/sony_crt-01_cr ... nload.html

This manual has a section starting at page 17 with pictures for each convergence adjustment and which models offer what adjustment points. You'll see that XBR sets include some more digital adjustment for certain things that lower-tier sets do not offer. For example YBH and CBH, both related to horizontal convergence, can only be adjusted with the H-Stat pot on most Sony sets, which will in turn affect static horizontal converge negatively, but XBR sets have a separate adjustment available.
No way I'm messing with the rings. I did that on a monitor and it never looked right again.

The magenta being a little high in the center of the screen looks bad on the grid pattern (although you can't really see it from a distance), but isn't really noticeable in most games. Even on the ones it is noticeable you have to be pretty close. I think I'll probably just leave it as is, but maybe I'll try and balance it out.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

I didn't find it that scary or irreversible or anything, though I only touched the V.Stat rings. But yeah the point I was generally getting at was you definitely will hit a wall where you can't improve things any further without messing up the picture somewhere else. Several convergence adjustments affect both static and dynamic convergence unfortunately. Opinions are all over the place on consumer vs professional CRTs, but after fully adjusting everything available on what is supposedly Sony's best 15kHz consumer set, I find it pretty lacking.

Sony KV-32XBR250, KV-36XBR250, KV-32XBR200, and KV-36XBR200 look like SD Trinitrons with dynamic convergence options available in the service menu. Wonder why I've never seen anyone mention that specifically? I'd imagine you could dial them in much more closely, at least compared to other consumer sets that size.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

I actually tried to free up the rings last time I had my set open and despite my best efforts I couldn't get them to move. I hacked all the glue off them and still nothing. I didn't want to apply much force since the neck is fragile so I took it as a sign and gave up. :)
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bobrocks95
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

As far as I know they're typically just painted on, I used acetone (ie nail polish remover) to get it off the two V.Stat rings I adjusted. My TLH plate looked like it had something closer to epoxy on it though, so maybe what they used varied.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

So looking in the back of my TV I see that TLH plate. How does moving this differ from adjusting the HSTAT knob? From that picture it looks like they should do the same thing. I've adjust the HSTAT several times but you can never get it all 100% since once it's good on one side it throws off the other.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

H.Stat is really meant to be used just for static convergence, ie the very middle of the screen's horizontal convergence. It will also affect dynamic convergence on the left and right side, but the TLH plate is meant to be a better adjustment for that. Like I said though, it doesn't make too much of a difference on my set.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

bobrocks95 wrote:H.Stat is really meant to be used just for static convergence, ie the very middle of the screen's horizontal convergence. It will also affect dynamic convergence on the left and right side, but the TLH plate is meant to be a better adjustment for that. Like I said though, it doesn't make too much of a difference on my set.
That might help my issue then. I'm nervous about adjusting it since it's not a dial, but a plate you pull out. How easily does it pull out and how far does it go? I don't want to screw everything up.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

Tempest_2084 wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:H.Stat is really meant to be used just for static convergence, ie the very middle of the screen's horizontal convergence. It will also affect dynamic convergence on the left and right side, but the TLH plate is meant to be a better adjustment for that. Like I said though, it doesn't make too much of a difference on my set.
That might help my issue then. I'm nervous about adjusting it since it's not a dial, but a plate you pull out. How easily does it pull out and how far does it go? I don't want to screw everything up.
If the epoxy is cleared from it it'll slide easily and pull all the way out. So it might not be worth messing with really.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

bobrocks95 wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:H.Stat is really meant to be used just for static convergence, ie the very middle of the screen's horizontal convergence. It will also affect dynamic convergence on the left and right side, but the TLH plate is meant to be a better adjustment for that. Like I said though, it doesn't make too much of a difference on my set.
That might help my issue then. I'm nervous about adjusting it since it's not a dial, but a plate you pull out. How easily does it pull out and how far does it go? I don't want to screw everything up.
If the epoxy is cleared from it it'll slide easily and pull all the way out. So it might not be worth messing with really.
Yeah I might not then. My fear is that if I free it then it will either slide around when I go to move the TV or that I'll never get it back to where it was if I screw things up. I honestly can't find much of anything about adjusting it in any of the CRT groups/forums I'm a member of.

BTW here's a picture of what my convergence looks like. You can see there's some minor misconvergence on the left side of the screen, it's good in the center, but gets bad on the right side. Ignroe the bottom right corner, it has issues but it's not nearly as bad as this picture makes it look.
Spoiler
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xeos
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by xeos »

Hey, that's my TV too!

Actually I'm very tempted to never load up a grid like that and visualize the convergence issue. Seems like if it's not noticeable in a game you are better off not knowing...
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

xeos wrote:Hey, that's my TV too!

Actually I'm very tempted to never load up a grid like that and visualize the convergence issue. Seems like if it's not noticeable in a game you are better off not knowing...
Most of it isn't noticeable in games. The misconvergence in the upper right and lower right corners tends to be the most visible because that's where status boxes usually go and many of those use white borders and text. The horizontal stuff that goes across most of the screen (the magenta and blue) only seems to be noticeable if you get close to the screen, otherwise it blends in. But yeah if you're not noticing anything and you're happy with the picture I'd just let it be.
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Josh128
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Josh128 »

xeos wrote:Hey, that's my TV too!

Actually I'm very tempted to never load up a grid like that and visualize the convergence issue. Seems like if it's not noticeable in a game you are better off not knowing...
A truer statement has never been said! :mrgreen:
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

Does anyone know if the focus can be adjusted from the outside on a KV27-FS100? I think I made the center a bit too sharp a the expense of the sides but I really don't want to have to take the whole case apart to get to the knob. There's a hole on the back of the case near where the flyback is that *might* be for adjusting the focus, but I'm not sure. The hole is pretty small.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by vol.2 »

Tempest_2084 wrote:Does anyone know if the focus can be adjusted from the outside on a KV27-FS100? I think I made the center a bit too sharp a the expense of the sides but I really don't want to have to take the whole case apart to get to the knob. There's a hole on the back of the case near where the flyback is that *might* be for adjusting the focus, but I'm not sure. The hole is pretty small.
It does not. You have to open it.
Shozuki
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Shozuki »

Hi all,

Sorry to hijack the thread, but despite my efforts googling can't seem to answer my question so I'm hoping someone here can...

Basically I had a Sony BVM-20F1U but long story short I don't have it any more... I'm looking to replace it and have seen a BVM-2011P instead - I'm struggling to find out the differences.

The main one that really matters to me is that the picture quality is on par. I loved my 20F1U very much...

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Dochartaigh »

Shozuki wrote:Basically I had a Sony BVM-20F1U but long story short I don't have it any more... I'm looking to replace it and have seen a BVM-2011P instead - I'm struggling to find out the differences.

The main one that really matters to me is that the picture quality is on par. I loved my 20F1U very much...
It's the earlier generation of BVM's. I think its biggest problem would be finding parts. I've had alerts set up for YEARS and frequent a ton of forums/groups and I can't remember the last time I saw any cards/parts/modules/etc. for those earlier ones. It's not like finding parts for the newer Evergreen series is easy or anything but I DO see them pop-up from time to time at least (or people parting out a broken one). Unless the price is great I would pass on the older one.
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TheShadowRunner
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by TheShadowRunner »

The BVM-20F1E has a CR-2025 lithium battery to maintain SRAM on its BC board.
Considering the age of these, I'm tempted to replace it before it dies unexpectedly.
Did anyone already perform this operation ?
As the "data seved in SRAM will be disappeared" (lol), what steps should I take to make the process seamless ?

Image
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vol.2
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by vol.2 »

TheShadowRunner wrote:The BVM-20F1E has a CR-2025 lithium battery to maintain SRAM on its BC board.
Considering the age of these, I'm tempted to replace it before it dies unexpectedly.
Did anyone already perform this operation ?
As the "data seved in SRAM will be disappeared" (lol), what steps should I take to make the process seamless ?

Image
I believe the SRAM should just be user settings, so that stuff would revert back to defaults. If you are concerned about having to reset that stuff, you could follow a guide to swapping batteries such as those used to maintain save games on NES carts; it should be the same idea in practice, and there is going to be plentiful youtube tutorials on the subject.
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TheShadowRunner
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by TheShadowRunner »

vol.2 wrote: I believe the SRAM should just be user settings, so that stuff would revert back to defaults. If you are concerned about having to reset that stuff, you could follow a guide to swapping batteries such as those used to maintain save games on NES carts; it should be the same idea in practice, and there is going to be plentiful youtube tutorials on the subject.
It's the should part I'm concerned about ^^;
Couldn't I just use BKM-10R + Memory card to Save data -> replace battery -> Load data ?
I need to know what exact data is held by that SRAM.. Only user data? monitor specs? factory values ?

Edit: what's the difference between:
1. MENU -> MEMORY CARD -> SAVE
and
2. MENU -> SET UP -> EXTEND MENU -> MEMORY CARD -> BACK UP SYSTEM DATA

I'm guessing 2. is _everything_ while 1. contains only user settings ?

Also found this in the manual that raises more questions:
• System data and memory card data cannot be
stored on the same memory card. To store memory
card data
, use another memory card.

• The BKM-12Y monitor memory card has a capacity
of 256 Kbytes. It can store either system data for up
to 8 monitors or 38 files of memory card data.
- what do they call "memory card data", user settings (1.) ?
- with a 512Kb card, can all data be stored on the same memory card then ?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

Is using SDI the easiest way to get 480i from my PC (HDMI->SDI) into a PVM? Did anyone have luck trying this?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by kitty666cats »

tongshadow wrote:Is using SDI the easiest way to get 480i from my PC (HDMI->SDI) into a PVM? Did anyone have luck trying this?
HDMI to Component is a better choice, if you have the option (SDI = 4:2:2 chroma resolution). Equally as simple and the converter should be cheaper, too!

https://a.co/d/9tIxsO3
https://a.co/d/gJUqGG2

These are pretty solid options, I prefer the device in the first link but they should be pretty equal in quality
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

I thought I had my 27" Trinitron all fixed up as good as it would get, but then early this week something must have come loose as the yoke slipped a bit and buggered everything. I now find myself having to do a full 'dynamic' yoke adjustment. Any tips on doing this? Last time I did this (and admittedly got lucky) I hunched over the top of tube and nearly destroyed my back in the process. This time I have a mirror that I'm hoping will allow me to adjust the yoke from behind and see if the geometry is at least somewhat decent.

The last time I did this I ended up introducing a few problems that I'm hoping to avoid this time. Any tips on how to avoid these particular issues?

First was that I knackered the linearity on the left side. I think this was due to me not pushing in the yoke far enough.

Second was the convergence at the top and bottom of the screen was off (the horizontal lines, not the vertical) which while not the biggest deal caused white text on the top and bottom to be misaligned a bit.

Third was the convergence in the lower left and right corners was screwy. Like the above issue, I just learned to live with it but if I could minimize it that would be nice.

Any tips? I feel like I'm just flailing around with the yoke until I get something that looks half way decent. Should I really loosen the yoke screw before adjusting or just lightly loosen it? I don't want the yoke to be all floppy but I also don't want to crack the neck.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

So, I was looking at some LCD PVMs and saw the spec sheet for the LMD-2300 and these features do actually seem nice:

Native Scan
Conventional flat panel monitor reproduce images using scaling and interlace-to-progressive conversion due to their fixed pixel counts and progressive scan processes. The Native Scan function equipped on the monitor is a unique display mode that reproduces images without changing the input. For standard definition images, users also have the option of display at double resolution.

Black Frame Insertion Display
Combining its high frame-rate operation with a unique Black Frame Insertion technology, the monitor dramatically reduces motion blur, an artifact that is inherent in LCD devices. The function generates a black frame and inserts this in every other picture frame. As a result, all of the panel's LCD molecules are reset to their default alignments before the next picture frame is displayed. Because the number of frames is doubled, Black Frame Insertion reproduces the combined picture content at twice the speed of the input signal's frame rate.

Interlace Display
The Interlace display mode of the PVM-L2300 can display interlace input signals as interlace fields. As with Native Scan function, the Interlace Display mode offers faithful reproduction of the input signal and the displayed interlace fields are free from the picture degradation that can occur as a result of the monitor interlace-to-progressive conversion process.

At first I thought these monitors were useless due to being early LCD tech, we have much better and cheaper offerings nowadays after all. But I didnt know these PVMs had: integer scaling; BFI; and true interlacing. My biggest gripe with modern LCDs is the lack of proper BFI and scaling implementantions, so these PVMs might actually have something going for them, including superior color accuracy.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by xeos »

The native scan mode sounds interesting, but... Wouldn't that be very similar visually to what the OSSC produces when you use alternating 100% black scanlines for 480i content? In my experience the interlacing artifacts are quite visible in this mode; in essence it's close to the "lace" deinterlacing method because LCDs can't turn a pixel black instantly. Perhaps the LMD-2300 has ultra fast response time to address this?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

xeos wrote:The native scan mode sounds interesting, but... Wouldn't that be very similar visually to what the OSSC produces when you use alternating 100% black scanlines for 480i content? In my experience the interlacing artifacts are quite visible in this mode; in essence it's close to the "lace" deinterlacing method because LCDs can't turn a pixel black instantly. Perhaps the LMD-2300 has ultra fast response time to address this?
Can't find exactly how old it is but it has a fluorescent backlight so sounds pretty old to me. If it does have a fast response time, it's probably because it has a TN panel with horrible viewing angles and very poor contrast. Even with an IPS, VA, or some other variant LCD panel, any LCD tech has improved drastically since then and I don't see how these displays would be worth having at all.
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