RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Kobeskillz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kobeskillz »

TooBeaucoup wrote:
Kobeskillz wrote:ok so I'm new here guys. First off Mike Chi you rock! You've been told this a million times but here is a million and one.

ok so my first but certainly not my last is a simple one. I just purchased a Tink and waiting patiently for it.

I have an OSSC with optimize phase for almost everything for pin sharp pixels (damn you sega genesis).

Does the auto phase in Retrothink achieve this or is it close and i have to go in menus and further tweak for the sharpest possible image?

Cause i got menu fatigue with OSSC. Buuuut i am a whore for a sharp image.
All you have to do is choose the appropriate preset that Mike has programmed in there and it'll lock onto optimal timings and sharpness within a second or two.
and that quals the sharpness you get when you manually adjust it on the OSSC to perfection when possible? Or it gets close but still needs to be adjusted further for the sharpest imagine possible?
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

It should match the OSSC's best, just MUCH more easily. I would be curious to see what you find when you get it though.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Kobeskillz wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:
Kobeskillz wrote:ok so I'm new here guys. First off Mike Chi you rock! You've been told this a million times but here is a million and one.

ok so my first but certainly not my last is a simple one. I just purchased a Tink and waiting patiently for it.

I have an OSSC with optimize phase for almost everything for pin sharp pixels (damn you sega genesis).

Does the auto phase in Retrothink achieve this or is it close and i have to go in menus and further tweak for the sharpest possible image?

Cause i got menu fatigue with OSSC. Buuuut i am a whore for a sharp image.
All you have to do is choose the appropriate preset that Mike has programmed in there and it'll lock onto optimal timings and sharpness within a second or two.
and that quals the sharpness you get when you manually adjust it on the OSSC to perfection when possible? Or it gets close but still needs to be adjusted further for the sharpest imagine possible?
It looks just as sharp to my eyes as my OSSC was. That's how Mike set them up, in order to be optimal. There's really nothing else you can tweak on the 5X to make it better. Aside from setting any scanline filters or your preferred resolution. I suppose if you put screenshots of each device side by side and examined every pixel at 1000% magnification, maybe you'd find some differences that are imperceptible at normal viewing distances.
mikechi2
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by mikechi2 »

Haha thanks guys. I'd say the OSSC (if well adjusted) is a tad better, but the RT5X can generally find an optimal solution/phase once you tell it what console/mode (i.e. SNES 256, Gen 320). The difference is probably very difficult to discern in a actual usage.

In the latest firmware, you can define custom modes for other consoles (i.e. PS2) by adjusting the sample rate.
Kobeskillz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kobeskillz »

mikechi2 wrote:Haha thanks guys. I'd say the OSSC (if well adjusted) is a tad better, but the RT5X can generally find an optimal solution/phase once you tell it what console/mode (i.e. SNES 256, Gen 320). The difference is probably very difficult to discern in a actual usage.

In the latest firmware, you can define custom modes for other consoles (i.e. PS2) by adjusting the sample rate.
Thanks Mike! I can't wait to fiddle with it. OSSC did look pin sharp if you went through the headache of getting juuuuuust right. Some consoles were easy like NES and others were absolute nightmares. My Sega Genesis still doesn't have perfect phase and i'm convinced by god as my witness that it's impossible on OSSC for that system. At least my system.

480p systems were also very difficult to adjust due to them not being easy to see whats happening.

Does the Retrothink auto adjust the phase on these 480p systems like Wii/Gamecube? I'm curious to see how it does with Wii since an original unmodded launch Wii looks horrible and i bet the algorithm must want to jump out a window trying to figure that out.
Kobeskillz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kobeskillz »

Hey guys with Genesis or PS1 games that have different resolutions in the menu vs gameplay will the optimal sampling adjust and give you a sharp image when it's switching resolution or struggle like the OSSC which you had to pick one resolution which was usually the gameplay resolution but then the Menus were a mess.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Kobeskillz wrote:Hey guys with Genesis or PS1 games that have different resolutions in the menu vs gameplay will the optimal sampling adjust and give you a sharp image when it's switching resolution or struggle like the OSSC which you had to pick one resolution which was usually the gameplay resolution but then the Menus were a mess.
You'd want to pick appropriate sampling for the gameplay and that's what the 5X is going to keep sharp. If it switches to another resolution in a menu, it's not going to look as good. For games that switch a ton, I just use generic sampling which looks good for everything.
Kobeskillz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kobeskillz »

Edit
Last edited by Kobeskillz on Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kobeskillz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kobeskillz »

TooBeaucoup wrote:
Kobeskillz wrote:Hey guys with Genesis or PS1 games that have different resolutions in the menu vs gameplay will the optimal sampling adjust and give you a sharp image when it's switching resolution or struggle like the OSSC which you had to pick one resolution which was usually the gameplay resolution but then the Menus were a mess.
You'd want to pick appropriate sampling for the gameplay and that's what the 5X is going to keep sharp. If it switches to another resolution in a menu, it's not going to look as good. For games that switch a ton, I just use generic sampling which looks good for everything.
Ah ic. I figured but was maybe hoping for magic. Maybe one day. The ps1 does so much damn switching of resolution. Lol.

So I got it today and been messing but the auto phase thing has me a bit stumped. It’s a bit iffy so far. I have a jr snes modded rgb and it’s sharp as glass and on the tink the auto phase is having trouble locking in. With chrono trigger for instance it looks good! Then I put on yoshi island 2 and it’s giving me a pretty bad picture snes sampling. Am I doing something or maybe a tip. : )

Hey thanks everyone for helping this retrotink rookie. Such a classy product so far. It’s living side by side with my ossc as both are AAA stuff.

Settings snes jr connected via component to gcomp switcher.

Snes sampling 256. 1080p/1200p either looks rough in yoshi. Also, any way to get 1200 closer to 4:3? Seems too wide.
Kobeskillz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kobeskillz »

Josh128 wrote:It should match the OSSC's best, just MUCH more easily. I would be curious to see what you find when you get it though.
Still messing with it. OSSC seems a tad sharper but tink is right there when the auto phase locks on. Though I had to sell my soul and children to get the ossc juuuuuuust right. I still lose sleep over it. The tink is soooo easy and a pleasure to navigate but I do miss some of the fine grain adjustments.

Go figure right? You give some people a wheelbarrow full of money and they’ll complain about how heavy it is. Lol.
Steven
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Steven »

Kobeskillz wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:
Kobeskillz wrote:Snes sampling 256. 1080p/1200p either looks rough in yoshi. Also, any way to get 1200 closer to 4:3? Seems too wide.
Use latest firmware, turn on optimal timings, adjust v size until the thingy says it's at 1.00, then adjust the screen position as needed. I don't know about 1200 since my monitor does not support that, but it works for 1080 under.
Kobeskillz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kobeskillz »

I couldn’t figure out how to stretch or squash the image to get a 4:3. Chi any way to add a 1600x1200 in addition to the 1900x1200?

On the OSSC I used 1600x1200 for almost all my settings and it worked wonderful to get close to a 4:3. Much closer than 1900x1200. I would love love this setting.

Also, weirdly enough the auto phase so far has not gotten it right on my sega and Nintendo systems. Though usually the 1,2,3,4,5 setting will get it right but odd I was looking forward to auto vs manual. But is a billion times easier still than what I’ve done before. So that’s cool.
Steven
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Steven »

Kobeskillz wrote:I couldn’t figure out how to stretch or squash the image to get a 4:3.
https://youtu.be/e6GFw-6ypLM?t=1688
thebigcheese
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by thebigcheese »

Kobeskillz wrote:So I got it today and been messing but the auto phase thing has me a bit stumped. It’s a bit iffy so far. I have a jr snes modded rgb and it’s sharp as glass and on the tink the auto phase is having trouble locking in. With chrono trigger for instance it looks good! Then I put on yoshi island 2 and it’s giving me a pretty bad picture snes sampling. Am I doing something or maybe a tip. : )
The problem AFAIK is that not all games use the same resolution (heck, some games change resolutions in game), so when you use the optimal timings, you end up having to change them on a per-game basis. And yes, that means you'll also end up with some games slightly wider or narrower than others because the optimal sampling settings are designed to give square pixels so you get even scaling and no shimmering. This is why the generic modes exist, so you can get interpolated scaling that is good enough, consistent in size, and doesn't need to be adjusted every time the resolution changes slightly. IMO, you can use the generic modes and then add a bit of sharpening on the TV/monitor to get it like 90% of the way toward the optimal settings anyway, so it doesn't seem worth the effort to me.
Kobeskillz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kobeskillz »

thebigcheese wrote:
Kobeskillz wrote:So I got it today and been messing but the auto phase thing has me a bit stumped. It’s a bit iffy so far. I have a jr snes modded rgb and it’s sharp as glass and on the tink the auto phase is having trouble locking in. With chrono trigger for instance it looks good! Then I put on yoshi island 2 and it’s giving me a pretty bad picture snes sampling. Am I doing something or maybe a tip. : )
The problem AFAIK is that not all games use the same resolution (heck, some games change resolutions in game), so when you use the optimal timings, you end up having to change them on a per-game basis. And yes, that means you'll also end up with some games slightly wider or narrower than others because the optimal sampling settings are designed to give square pixels so you get even scaling and no shimmering. This is why the generic modes exist, so you can get interpolated scaling that is good enough, consistent in size, and doesn't need to be adjusted every time the resolution changes slightly. IMO, you can use the generic modes and then add a bit of sharpening on the TV/monitor to get it like 90% of the way toward the optimal settings anyway, so it doesn't seem worth the effort to me.
Even on SNES games? Aren't most games 256?

My experience so far has been the auto phase more often than not choosing the wrong phase leaving the pixels unaligned. A quick manual adjustment to the 1,2,3,4,5 setting will usually do the trick but odd the auto phase tends to choose the wrong one.

Buuuuuut i am new to this so maybe i'm missing something.
Kobeskillz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kobeskillz »

Steven wrote:
Kobeskillz wrote:I couldn’t figure out how to stretch or squash the image to get a 4:3.
https://youtu.be/e6GFw-6ypLM?t=1688
Thanks. I did see this video but my impression was that with generic 4:3 you could do that but with optimal sampling you couldn't stretch and squash. Unless i'm missing something. I can just move the image left and right and up and down but now stretch and squash to fit a 4:3. With the optimal console specific setting.
thebigcheese
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by thebigcheese »

Kobeskillz wrote:Even on SNES games? Aren't most games 256?

My experience so far has been the auto phase more often than not choosing the wrong phase leaving the pixels unaligned. A quick manual adjustment to the 1,2,3,4,5 setting will usually do the trick but odd the auto phase tends to choose the wrong one.

Buuuuuut i am new to this so maybe i'm missing something.
Even with SNES games. I think you are right that the majority of them are 256, but there are some that use a high resolution mode (a quick search suggests that Secret of Mana is one such game). There also doesn't seem to be much consistency between games about being developed with 4:3 vs 8:7 aspect ratios, so some might look too thin while others look correct because that's just how they decided to develop it.
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WobblingPixels
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by WobblingPixels »

2560x1440 output was added as a part of experimental firmware.
Download can be found on the Discord Retrotink5x server http://discord.gg/jE6deAhjCM

720p
https://ibb.co/Fz90KkH

1440p upscaled
https://ibb.co/6vVsDT1
2560x1440 and 1920x1440 are now separate menu items.
*General improvements in FPGA timing closure.
*2560x1440 now supports 240p/480i, 288p/576i, 480p, 720p, all cropped and centered.
*Optimal timings for 288p/576i now enabled for both 1440p modes.
*Optimal timing for 480P to 2560x1440 has two modes:
---DTV 858 (3:2) is a square pixel mode ideal for Dreamcast and other games where developers did not account for the 9/10 PAR.
---DTV 858 (x4) uses a 4x horizontal and 3x vertical scaling. This is slightly wider than 16:9. You can increase the vertical scale by 10% to compensate.

THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT 2560x1440 WILL WORK. THIS MODE IS PURELY EXPERIMENTAL AND WE DO NOT OFFER ANY SUPPORT OR ASSURANCE.
REPEAT.
WE DO NOT OFFER ANY GUARANTEE THAT IT WORKS FOR YOUR SETUP.
WE PROMISE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
EXPERIMENTAL MODES ARE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS ADVERTISED FEATURES AND ARE FOR YOUR ENTERTAINMENT ONLY.
DO NOT POST OR COPY LINKS TO THIS FIRMWARE. FOR RETROTINK DISCORD ONLY.
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bobrocks95
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

Looks great for a "cut your eyes on the jaggies" guy like myself! Plenty of displays that never handled 720p games all that well.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
Smashbro29
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Smashbro29 »

Latest experimental FW more than ever makes me want to see what Mike can do with a more expensive scaler. This is the guy who will bring us into true 4K in the future.
spmbx
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by spmbx »

bobrocks95 wrote:Looks great for a "cut your eyes on the jaggies" guy like myself! Plenty of displays that never handled 720p games all that well.
I like your style 8)
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Smashbro29 wrote:Latest experimental FW more than ever makes me want to see what Mike can do with a more expensive scaler. This is the guy who will bring us into true 4K in the future.

I have to say, Mike just came seemingly out of nowhere and IMO just blew everything else out of the water. No disrespect to anyone involved in the design and production of other scalers, but this thing was basically complete and just about ready to ship by the time Voultar hinted about it. Then, the FW updates and listening to the requests of the community and implementing them has been rapid fire and is getting super-refined.
Mr.Ash
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Mr.Ash »

I have owned a Retro TINK 5x since October last year and am basically very satisfied with it.

However, I notice that when I activate a 480p/575p output on the Retro TINK 5x, my DVDO VP50 does not recognize this image signal. All other signals like 1080p fill/over/under, 720p, 540p, 240p (only 1200p and 1440p do not work logically) are recognized without problems.

My DVDO VP50 serves as a hub on whose HDMI output my Sony OLED HDTV, and on the RGBHV output my JVC DTV CRT hangs. For the picture output I have set up appropriate profiles on the DVDO VP50, which output a 1080p signal for the HDTV and a 480p or 576p signal for the CRT.

Therefore it would be important to me that I can activate 5x 480p/576p output on the Retro TINK, which the DVDO VP50 then forwards to the CRT. 1080p is unfortunately not an option here, since the DVDO retains the 16:9 format for the image output, meaning I then get a 480p/576p in 16:9 format on the CRT.

But as mentioned above, the DVDO does not accept the 480p/576p of the Retrotink 5x. Any other 480p/576p source (e.g. PS2) do not cause any problems for the DVDO, so I think that somehow the 480p/576p output of the Retro TINK 5x is the problem.

Has anyone else noticed this issue? Or does anyone have an idea what I can do?
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WobblingPixels
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by WobblingPixels »

I think its because R5x 480p is displayed as 1440x480
Mr.Ash
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Mr.Ash »

WobblingPixels wrote:I think its because R5x 480p is displayed as 1440x480
No, that cannot be possible. If I connect the Retro TINK 5x directly to the HTDV and set the picture output to 480p/576p, then the HDTV also displays the picture signal correctly as 480p/576p.

I just can't figure out why the DVDO VP50 doesn't recognize this 480p/576p signal from the Retro TINK 5x? Because especially regarding exotic video signals (e.g. the 720p of the OSSC in 4:3 format), one usually has the best chances with the DVDO that this is recognized and also displayed.
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WobblingPixels
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by WobblingPixels »

Mr.Ash wrote:
WobblingPixels wrote:I think its because R5x 480p is displayed as 1440x480
No, that cannot be possible. If I connect the Retro TINK 5x directly to the HTDV and set the picture output to 480p/576p, then the HDTV also displays the picture signal correctly as 480p/576p.
shiftednes wrote:I just tried 480p on two of my TVs and it also wouldn't work on them. I checked out Bob's RetroRGB video and think I know why. It turns out 480p is actually 1440x480 meant for older VGA monitors or plasma TVs (it looks like it works on newer TVs as well like in his video). I guess my TVs (2009 and 2014) and monitor don't like that width, which is really wide. 480p does work via HDMI to component convertor on a multiformat PVM that can accept 480p like the 14L5 though. https://youtu.be/nwNrqIjxBaA?t=611
480p is 1440x480px indeed. My Sony TV won't show it either and other processors show it with a 3:1 ratio by default.
mikechi2 wrote:Yes it uses a 1440 x 480p resolution. The goal was for max quality with DACs and cap cards. I figured few would use this for actual play.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67984&start=660
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67984&start=690
strayan
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by strayan »

Mr.Ash wrote:does anyone have an idea what I can do?
Does your HDCRT not accept 540p?
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Guspaz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

Latest experimental firmware adds 4K24 output for NTSC and 4K25 for PAL. Perhaps useful for games that naturally run at lower framerates or where dropping frames isn't a major issue (some RPGs?)
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Guspaz wrote:Latest experimental firmware adds 4K24 output for NTSC and 4K25 for PAL. Perhaps useful for games that naturally run at lower framerates or where dropping frames isn't a major issue (some RPGs?)
Goldeneye for sure. Native 19fps.
Mr.Ash
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Mr.Ash »

strayan wrote:Does your HDCRT not accept 540p?
Yes, 540p works, but there are clear scaling artifacts, i.e. the picture looks soft and muddy in details (e.g. texts).

My goal would be that the Retro TINK 5x outputs the 240p signals of my consoles (e.g. Mega Drive) cleanly with 480p (2x scaling), the DVDO for its part then converts the 480p HDMI signal without further conversion into a 480p RGBHV signal.

As I said, with the OSSC or Frammeister this works absolutely problem-free and looks bombastic on the CRT, only the Retro TINK 5x makes problems here.


@WobblingPixels
Thanks for the info. But this also means that the Retro TINK 5x does not adhere to the standards for 480p/576p. Whether this is rarely used in practice or not, I think that this is not really good. As a user, I would expect all output signals to adhere to the respective standards to ensure the greatest possible compatibility. This would certainly be easy to fix with a firmware update, I will contact Mike Chi in this case.
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