Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possible?

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
Post Reply
User avatar
vicmarto
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:43 am

Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possible?

Post by vicmarto »

Hi!

I'm thinking about a frankenstein system, which.... I don't even know if it's technically possible!

The goals to achieve are:
  • * Fully automatic, no need to change cables.
    * Dual CRT monitors:
    • - 240p/480i systems → Sony PVM-20M2U (15kHz).
      - 480p systems → 20" 'normal' CRT monitor (31+kHz).
      - 240p/480i/480p systems (Wii/GC/PS2/DC/Mister/PC) → Depending on the game, use one monitor or the other.
      The 'normal' 20" CRT monitor is connected to the RGB-OUT of the Sony PVM.
    * Light gun: OK
  • Image

    CLICK picture for full preview with links
Please.... suggestions? criticisms?

Possible sticking points I foresee:
  • * The first and fundamental one: is it silly or would it work?
    * Connection between the two monitors: would it work as expected?
    * What happens if by mistake I send a 480p signal to the Sony PVM? (very possible....)
    * SCART–D-SUB cable between the gscartsw and the SW4 VGA Ars... Which one? Suggestions?
To use the RGB-OUT of the Sony PVM, does the PVM need to be turned on? I don't think so, but would like to confirm?

THANK YOU ALL!
Dochartaigh
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Dochartaigh »

Once you start using multiple converters, multiple switchers, and multiple monitors (along with your multiple consoles/systems too) you're better off with an Extron Crosspoint switcher in my opinion. You can search here to see some setups using them.

You won't have to ever manually change cables once it's all setup, but you WILL have to hit a couple buttons on the Crosspoint to change to a different console or monitor (there's a tutorial to do this via a tablet or phone's touchscreen with the Crosspoint too if that's of interest to you, also things like remote keypads for them, web access from any browser, etc.).

The beauty of a Crosspoint for setups like yours, where you have a couple different converters and different signal types too, and multiple devices using the same device like that Extron RGB box, is you can loop those in AND out of the Crosspoint and never have to touch a wire again, the Crosspoint can then do all the routing for you (even automatically on a saved preset you quickly recall). You can then get rid of things like the Extron SW4 since the Crosspoint can route RGBHV/VGA (along with YPbPr/Component, RGBS, RGsB, S-Video, Component and more), and probably get rid of that Extron PA 250 too (which I honestly don't know what that's being used for... looks to be an extender... but the Crosspoint can probably throw an analogue signal a good ~75 to maybe 100' perfectly over quality BNC cable or BNC to DB15/VGA cable).

...problem to be aware of is Crosspoints are getting a little harder to find so might have to search eBay until you find the one you want. They use Phoenix connectors for audio so you'll have to make or buy Phoenix to RCA adapters (super simple to make fyi). If you have any non-csync consoles (my only ones out of 14x are my PS1 and PS2) you'll need a sync stripper. If you've already invested in SCART cables you'll need a bunch of SCART to BNC adapter cables (or again, make your own) since the Crosspoint only uses BNC connectors. And last, setting up a Crosspoint to be the brain of your larger setup isn't for the faint of heart, there is a level of sophistication and dedication needed (but similar would be needed for your current setup drawing as well).
User avatar
vicmarto
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:43 am

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by vicmarto »

Thank you for your response.

I am aware of the goodness of Crosspoint, and it is quite possibly the best option, as you comment. I know that.

But, for the moment, I would like to discuss the feasibility or not of the system I am presenting. If it works, it has three points in its favor over Crosspoint:
  • * It is automatic, with no buttons or programming.
    * I don't need to convert cables to BNC
    * I don't need new audio cables
The Extron PA 250 is used to get RGBHV for the CRT monitor.
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Syntax »

That's a pretty confusing way to get signal to that PC crt, downscaling then upscaling.

I say invest in an Extron matrix system, if you get something like a 16x16 (Or less as your using a gscart switch) you can get a GBS or other scaler, set it as an output and loop it back into the matrix input then back out to your choice of 15 other monitors.

This way you only up or down scale when you need and keep the chain as short as possible. The Extrons need csync, but they clean it up and amp it nicely.
User avatar
vicmarto
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:43 am

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by vicmarto »

Uh? Maybe I'm missing something. Where I'm downscaling and then upscaling?
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Syntax »

Sorry I thought the Extrons before and after the PVM were doing that, I didn't check their functions till now.

So the PVM can cold passthru a 480p signal?
User avatar
vicmarto
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:43 am

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by vicmarto »

Syntax wrote: So the PVM can cold passthru a 480p signal?
That's a very good question. I don't know.
Maybe someone has experience with it?
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Syntax »

If not you could change out the SW VGA for something with dual VGA outputs, the PC crt will accept RGBS and RGBHV (If a Sony sync on green too) save your geometry per resolution and has a large range for centering the different consoles so you can bypass the last 2 extron units.
Dochartaigh
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Dochartaigh »

Syntax wrote:That's a pretty confusing way to get signal to that PC crt
So like Syntax I'm also confused by your CRT PC monitor routing (well, for starters; also confused about many other things too)... still trying to wrap my head around it unless I'm missing something (which I very well could be ;)

To start, I thought most people (like the vast, vast, majority) use GroovyMame and Mister specifically for SD 240p/480i consoles - is that not the case in your setup? I have an inkling you might fall into the 'not' category if you're having those go into a VGA switch which usually means RGBHV... especially if you have a PC CRT monitor further down the line... but again, usually those are only setup for 240p/480i so I'll continue...

Also know that GroovyMame has been able to output RGBS combined cync for a few years now (maybe longer), and there's ports left on your 8x2 Gscartsw (which can also pass 480p+ just in case you are using that), so why is that going through your Extron SW4 VGA switcher instead of the Gscartsw?

Also thought (just briefly read an article on RetroRGB to confirm but could be mistaken as I'm not a Mister guy) that Mister can also output RGBS merged sync, so again why is that going through Extron SW4 VGA switch? Only thing I can think of is that's easy cables for you to use/get? I can see that, but personally I would WAY prefer having to get a couple cables than introduce an entire VGA switcher into the mix if that could then be removed...

For routing, also super confused... like why would you go Console > Gscart > Extron SW4 VGA switch > Extron RGB > Sony PVM > another weird Extron PA box... > PC CRT monitor......... when the Gscart has 2x outputs, you have 2x CRT's, and the Gscart can switch 480p+ if needed (website says "up to 1080p")??? I run Crosspoints not Gscart's so maybe I'm missing something here as well...

Or why when you're going from a 240p/480i console you wouldn't just go: Console > Gscart > PVM (again, Gscartsw has TWO outputs)........ instead you're going Console > Extron SW4 VGA > Extron RGB > PVM...

And why would you go THROUGH the PVM to get to the PC CRT monitor instead of just straight to the PC CRT monitor? ...the PVM only has 4x BNC's for RGBS; and if you have any regular 480p signals over traditional RGBHV/VGA/DB15 you're going to be a wire short for RGBHV on the back of the PVM... which might be why that 2nd Extron box is there (so you can go from RGBHV > RGBS to pass through the PVM ––which you still need to find out if it'll do that I know you know–– > Extron to convert back to RGBHV again to go to the PC CRT monitor???? that's just weird...

Anyway, apologize if I'm off on a bunch of stuff. Looks like you thought this out and diagrammed it and all so there has to be reasons behind some of this 'weird to us but maybe not to you' routing and logic behind all this lol... but just really not following along at the moment (and I've been through all this myself on my own crazy convoluted setup lol ;)
Last edited by Dochartaigh on Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
bobrocks95
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:27 am
Location: Kentucky

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by bobrocks95 »

My assumptions were:

1) They wanted to route everything through the 203 Rxi for centering controls
2) They only have DSub cables for the Mister and PC so figured that was best
3) They own most of this equipment anyways so just kind of pieced it together

Correct me if I'm wrong of course.

A simple way to make your chain less complex would be to get a VGA Ars that has two outputs, one going straight to the VGA CRT, one going through the 203 Rxi. Unless I'm misunderstanding what the 203 Rxi does, the PC CRT should be able to do any centering/size adjustments you want quickly and easily. This avoids the still open question of if the PVM can pass through 480p content and if it can do it while off, and you don't need the separate RGBHV conversion from the PA 250. If the 203 Rxi wasn't for centering and was just RGBS conversion, it's gone too.

You also only have 8 systems, a SCART cable for the Mister and PC would let you use the gscartsw for everything, which has 2 outputs of its own to go to both displays and the 203 Rxi if you need it.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
User avatar
vicmarto
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:43 am

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by vicmarto »

I am sorry for the confusion. I don't think I have explained the reasons sufficiently.

The main idea is: "a fully automatic system with simultaneous output on two monitors (one 15 kHz and one 31 kHz). Turning on one or the other depending on the system/game".

The difficulty lies in combining 3 types of systems:
  • * 240p/480i systems: N64, PS1 → Play on Sony PVM.
    * 480p systems: Wii → Playing on VGA Monitor
    * 240p/480i/480p systems: GC, PS2, DC, Mister, PC GroovyArcade → Play on Sony PVM or VGA monitor, depending on the game.
These 240p/480i/480p systems, for example the GC, are a real problem. They have games only 240p/480i, but also 480p. The plan is to use 480p when possible, but also keep the 240p/480i option.
The GroovyArcade PC would be used primarily for 240p/480i content, but it would be nice to have the 480p option as well, just in case.
Then, there's the DC, which with the TORO has two outputs: a 240p/480i SCART and a 480p D-SUB (for compatible games)....

The Extron RGB 203 RXi is not only used to unify the sync type, but also to center the image. You could use the two outputs of the gscartsw, but then you would need two Extron RGB 203 RXi.... I think this answers a lot of Dochartaigh's questions (thanks for the help). Although he may be right, two Extron RGB 203 RXi would simplify the setup a lot?

It is also true that there are 8 systems, and you could connect everything with the gscartsw, but, in view of having future expansion options, I have thought about the Extron SW4.
Also, since there are three systems that natively use D-SUB (the PC, Mister and the DC), it seemed like the natural thing to do.
But, as the other guys said, you could use SCART cables with the Mister and the PC (both systems are CSYNC compatible) and dispense with the Extron SW4. In that case, what would happen with the DC and the two TORO outputs?


The Extron PA 250 is most likely not necessary. It serves to convert the CSYNC signal to RGBHV for the VGA monitor (and as a sync stripper). I think we can eliminate it.

Two big questions are:
  • * If the RGB output of the PVM works also when it is turned off?
    * Is the RGB output of the PVM capable of carrying a 480p signal?
If not, a possible solution would be to add an Extron DA2 RGBHV (one VGA input → two VGA output) after the Extron RGB 203 RXi.

Two other doubts I would like to raise:
  • * what happens if I mistakenly turn on the Sony PVM with a 480p signal input? Can it be damaged?
    * what happens if I mistakenly turn on the VGA monitor with a 240p/480i input signal? Can it be damaged?
bobrocks95 wrote:My assumptions were:

1) They wanted to route everything through the 203 Rxi for centering controls
2) They only have DSub cables for the Mister and PC so figured that was best
3) They own most of this equipment anyways so just kind of pieced it together
Thanks bobrocks95. You are right about the 203 Rxi.
Use a VGA Ars that has two outputs would be a good solution, but they are pretty expensive. On the other hand, a standalone unit like the Extron DA2 RGBHV is cheap.What do you think?

Thank you all for your help!
Dochartaigh
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Dochartaigh »

Hate to ask but have you actually used the PVM and the PC CRT monitor on these systems before, and adjusted the geometry to be pretty decent on multiple consoles WITHOUT having to tweak anything geometry-wise on it when you switch consoles? This also would have to be done AFTER you are using the various converters and/or mods you might have to use for a couple different systems, since those can shift the image just a tad on occasion.

I'm asking because I pretty much, never, ever, use my Extron RGB 203 Rxi's for centering, EVER lol (and I have 2x of them hooked up at all times I can run any of 14x consoles to on my Crosspoint setup through either of them. They also can NOT make the image taller/shorter, less-wide/wider either, just straight up centering... so they STILL couldn't make things perfect with their limited controls only. With geometry on my CRT's I've been pretty much fine after initial setup with all of my consoles (240p/480i and 480p+) and don't really have to touch things much and they all have pretty decent shared geometry settings (but I will sadly caution that in this hobby in particular higher amounts of OCD seem to run VERY rampant... so what doesn't bug me might drive somebody else crazy). It also helps that my 480p+ sets are PVM/BVM's which keep separate geometry settings per resolution, but most PC CRT monitors do the same too (might be some issues with the multiple flavors of 480p/640x480/etc. though, saving to the correct geometry bank... haven't really tested this much as my PC monitor's get used on my retro PC's and not consoles usually).

Things might change running like 50 different arcade cores or whatnot on the Mister or whatnot, which might make this a different animal (which I don't even think has many arcade cores yet at all in the scheme of things), but even on my Groovymame setup – (which I am NOT a pro at and haven't used nearly as much as my consoles), once it was setup I was pretty well centered and such for all the games I ran on it.

Last, can't help you on if the PVM/PC-CRT will be damaged or not. I know it's not good to run an incompatible signal on it, have heard people *think* that running a wrong signal to their monitor damaged it, but honestly don't know if there's any sound logic behind that or not... but I DO try not to ever do that when I can help it.

*edit, and yes, the signal looping in/out of a PVM does still work when the PVM is off fyi. Just don't know if it'll pass a 480p RGBS signal either way or not (want to say it will, but haven't tested as nearly nothing runs 480p over RGBS generally speaking).
Guile
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:11 pm

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Guile »

I have some similarities in my setup and I think you're making it much more complicated than it needs to be. There's no need to be sending a 31khz signal to a 15khz monitor that will never be able to display it.

Have you considered a gbs-control or ossc? This would largely solve your problem of displaying 240p and 480i on your 31khz monitor. A nice bonus is the downscaling on the gbs-control will let you play 480p content on your 15khz monitor.

I'm using component and vga only but basically I have some 15khz crts and various scalers so I can also play on modern tvs and monitors.
User avatar
matt
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:46 am
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by matt »

vicmarto wrote:Thank you for your response.

I am aware of the goodness of Crosspoint, and it is quite possibly the best option, as you comment. I know that.

But, for the moment, I would like to discuss the feasibility or not of the system I am presenting. If it works, it has three points in its favor over Crosspoint:
  • * It is automatic, with no buttons or programming.
    * I don't need to convert cables to BNC
    * I don't need new audio cables
The Extron PA 250 is used to get RGBHV for the CRT monitor.
As others have mentioned, you can do basically all of this with a single matrix switcher. If you set it up properly, you can make presets for everything and only have to press one button for each console you want. IMO auto switching is overrated - you have to manually turn on your console anyhow and pushing the preset button on the switcher isn't any more work. If you don't want a Crosspoint, the MVX VGA switchers do the same thing but are smaller in size and usually cost a lot less.

A few points:

- Most VGA monitors will accept composite sync. Have you tried it with your monitor? As long as it's 31khz or above the sync splitter may not be necessary.

- The VGA ARS switchers often have trouble auto switching with 15khz inputs. This setup probably won't work automatically for all your consoles.

- The PVM probably will pass through the signal OK. But it's a bad choice - it extends your cable length and could compromise video quality (especially since you have so many components in the chain already). You'd be better off using a distribution amp or (again) a matrix switcher. Also, with a matrix you can use both monitors at once with different consoles.

- You're most likely going to have to get new cables for everything to optimize your setup. IMO it's better to make your own since you can easily tweak your setup on the fly. Learning how to build them is worth the time investment, and it doesn't require a whole lot of equipment. Buying a whole new device just for the sake of using existing cables is putting the cart before the horse somewhat.

- I'd get a GCvideo dongle instead of modding a set of Gamecube component cables. The GCVideo will do a better job and costs less.
User avatar
bobrocks95
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:27 am
Location: Kentucky

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by bobrocks95 »

Sending 31kHz+ to your PVM definitely isn't good for it, but nothing's going to explode or anything. I have accidentally had to navigate console's menus in 480p or higher on my consumer Sony and it still works fine after small periods. Assuming the scenario is "I turned on the wrong display since I forgot the game was 480p, and then turned it off right away" I don't think you'll have any problems. Never hurts to keep asking people about their experience though, maybe 31kHz has damaged a monitor before?
matt wrote:- The VGA ARS switchers often have trouble auto switching with 15khz inputs. This setup probably won't work automatically for all your consoles.
First I've heard of it, as I route 9 15kHz consoles through mine. The Extron's DO require csync though, so I use it with all my consoles, attenuated to 75 ohms (in case I need to plug them directly into something), and with a sync stripper on my PS1 and PS2 cables.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
User avatar
Guspaz
Posts: 3136
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:37 pm
Location: Montréal, Canada

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Guspaz »

Your main idea as described (fully automatic with simultaneous output) is not achieved by the setup you've laid out, because all signals are being routed through the PVM with no scaler between the PVM and the PC CRT. Thus you will only ever be able to use one of the two monitors at the same time. Nothing is simultaneous because the two possible signals are mutually exclusive.

I would just route everything (and I mean everything) through one gscartsw, converting sync as required to get it to be RGsB or RGBS on the input. It can handle up to 1080p. It has dual outputs. Run one output to the PVM. Run the other output to the PC CRT. If the PC CRT doesn't support RGBS (my last one did), use a sync splitter between the switch and the PC CRT. One switch, 100% automatic, no upscaling, no downscaling, no matrix switch button complexity, every console can be displayed on one or the other monitors. And the dual-resolution consoles are connected to both displays so just turn on the appropriate display for the resolution.

EDIT: The Dreamcast might seem complex, but it isn't. The TORO is what's adding the complexity, on top of being a questionable product. There are several cables already available or soon available that output a single uniform signal and sync type for all possible dreamcast resolutions, allowing you to connect it to the gscartsw just as I've described above.
Dochartaigh
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Dochartaigh »

matt wrote:- Most VGA monitors will accept composite sync. Have you tried it with your monitor? As long as it's 31khz or above the sync splitter may not be necessary.
Guspaz wrote:If the PC CRT doesn't support RGBS (my last one did)
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but my last 6 or so PC CRT monitors didn't take a single combined sync line, always still need separate H and V lines as in RGBHV. Are you guys perhaps thinking of RGsB (Sync on Green) which is WAY more common for VGA CRT monitors to take, especially Sony's they say? (which not all PC CRT monitors will take RGsB either fyi).

If you guys are talking about way early PC CRT monitors, which sometimes take 15khz too even, then yeah, that super rare type should be fine with one sync line I would imagine.
User avatar
matt
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:46 am
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by matt »

bobrocks95 wrote:First I've heard of it, as I route 9 15kHz consoles through mine. The Extron's DO require csync though, so I use it with all my consoles, attenuated to 75 ohms (in case I need to plug them directly into something), and with a sync stripper on my PS1 and PS2 cables.
It may depend on the unit. I have a VGA/ARS SW6 that doesn't work properly with my 15khz consoles - it will detect the active input but keeps shutting off intermittently. It's very similar to OP's model so I expect he may run into the same problem. Having to push the button doesn't bother me, though.
Dochartaigh wrote:Maybe I've just had bad luck, but my last 6 or so PC CRT monitors didn't take a single combined sync line, always still need separate H and V lines as in RGBHV. Are you guys perhaps thinking of RGsB (Sync on Green) which is WAY more common for VGA CRT monitors to take, especially Sony's they say? (which not all PC CRT monitors will take RGsB either fyi).

If you guys are talking about way early PC CRT monitors, which sometimes take 15khz too even, then yeah, that super rare type should be fine with one sync line I would imagine.
I've had the opposite luck - the last 5 PC monitors I've tried have all taken composite sync, but only one of them works with sync on green. The only SOG monitor I have is a Mitsubishi 2070SB; the others are all mid to low end 17" and 19" models.

Either way, it's worth testing the monitor before investing in extra hardware that may not be needed.
User avatar
vicmarto
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:43 am

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by vicmarto »

Dochartaigh wrote: I'm asking because I pretty much, never, ever, use my Extron RGB 203 Rxi's for centering, EVER lol
Maybe I'm overrating the Extron RGB 203 Rxi and it's not as useful as I think for centering? What do other guys think, do you find it useful in your case?
Dochartaigh wrote: but even on my Groovymame setup – (which I am NOT a pro at and haven't used nearly as much as my consoles), once it was setup I was pretty well centered and such for all the games I ran on it.
Well... I thought Groovymame would be more problematic, as it emulates a large number of systems, with a great variability in resolutions.
Dochartaigh wrote: *edit, and yes, the signal looping in/out of a PVM does still work when the PVM is off fyi.
Thanks for confirmation!
Guile wrote:There's no need to be sending a 31khz signal to a 15khz monitor that will never be able to display it.
Well, somehow you have to connect the two monitors. It made sense to use the PVM's RGB OUT instead of using some extra unit.
Guile wrote: Have you considered a gbs-control or ossc? This would largely solve your problem of displaying 240p and 480i on your 31khz monitor. A nice bonus is the downscaling on the gbs-control will let you play 480p content on your 15khz monitor.
Thanks Guile, but I prefer not to line doubling, although the result is good, I don't like it.
matt wrote: As others have mentioned, you can do basically all of this with a single matrix switcher. If you set it up properly, you can make presets for everything and only have to press one button for each console you want. IMO auto switching is overrated - you have to manually turn on your console anyhow and pushing the preset button on the switcher isn't any more work.
Yeah, I know.
matt wrote: - Most VGA monitors will accept composite sync. Have you tried it with your monitor? As long as it's 31khz or above the sync splitter may not be necessary.
Yes, as mentioned above, the Extron PA 250 is probably not necessary.
matt wrote: - The VGA ARS switchers often have trouble auto switching with 15khz inputs. This setup probably won't work automatically for all your consoles.
I didn't know about this. Any links? What is the experience of other guys?
matt wrote: - I'd get a GCvideo dongle instead of modding a set of Gamecube component cables. The GCVideo will do a better job and costs less.
Again, is this true? Any links comparing the two? I thought it was the opposite, and the GCvideo still has minor compatibility issues with some minority games.
Guspaz wrote:Your main idea as described (fully automatic with simultaneous output) is not achieved by the setup you've laid out, because all signals are being routed through the PVM with no scaler between the PVM and the PC CRT. Thus you will only ever be able to use one of the two monitors at the same time. Nothing is simultaneous because the two possible signals are mutually exclusive.
Yes, sorry Guspaz, I think I oversimplified the explanation. Actually, only one of the two monitors would be used, depending on the resolution of the game/system. The other would be turned off.
Guspaz wrote:I would just route everything (and I mean everything) through one gscartsw, converting sync as required to get it to be RGsB or RGBS on the input. It can handle up to 1080p. It has dual outputs. Run one output to the PVM. Run the other output to the PC CRT. If the PC CRT doesn't support RGBS (my last one did), use a sync splitter between the switch and the PC CRT. One switch, 100% automatic, no upscaling, no downscaling, no matrix switch button complexity, every console can be displayed on one or the other monitors. And the dual-resolution consoles are connected to both displays so just turn on the appropriate display for the resolution.
Yes, that is the most logical and simplest thing to do. The only problem is that you would need two Extron RGB 203 Rxi, one for each output of the gscartsw.

My proposal (gscartsw+Extron SW VGA) has also other advantages (if it works!):
  • * You keep the future possibility of adding new systems.
    * You only need one Extron RGB 203 Rxi.
    * It uses more common cables (D-SUB) in some systems (PC/Mister/DC), than SCART.
Guspaz wrote: EDIT: The Dreamcast might seem complex, but it isn't. The TORO is what's adding the complexity, on top of being a questionable product. There are several cables already available or soon available that output a single uniform signal and sync type for all possible dreamcast resolutions, allowing you to connect it to the gscartsw just as I've described above.
Really? Does this cable exist? I would appreciate a product name or a link.
User avatar
bobrocks95
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:27 am
Location: Kentucky

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by bobrocks95 »

Would imagine that any PC CRT is going to have enough centering and picture control that you wouldn't need the Extron for it. Tons I've used before had that auto calibration button that set raster size and everything with one press.

How many of these cables/Extron units/switchers do you already own btw? I wouldn't suggest anyone buy Gamecube component cables at this point, especially if you're about to mod them.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
User avatar
Guspaz
Posts: 3136
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:37 pm
Location: Montréal, Canada

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Guspaz »

vicmarto wrote:Yes, that is the most logical and simplest thing to do. The only problem is that you would need two Extron RGB 203 Rxi, one for each output of the gscartsw.
I don't think you need any of those. For what purpose? On a PVM it's not hard to get one "good enough" geometry that works for most consoles, and on many PVMs you can effectively set up multiple geometry profiles because the "underscan" and "16:9" buttons are actually just separate geometry presets that can be independently saved. And the PC CRT has much easier to access knobs on the front, usually. It seems a bit silly trying to make everything automatic, only to have to manually adjust geometry via an Extron RGB interface every time you switch consoles!
vicmarto wrote:My proposal (gscartsw+Extron SW VGA) has also other advantages (if it works!):
  • * You keep the future possibility of adding new systems.
    * You only need one Extron RGB 203 Rxi.
    * It uses more common cables (D-SUB) in some systems (PC/Mister/DC), than SCART.
You can add new systems with my proposed setup too, just add another gscartsw or other switch in the future and chain them. And I think that with my setup you need zero Extron RGB 203 Rxi. And the cable type, well, doesn't really matter that much. And to be honest, I'm not even really proposing the gscartsw so much as "any single good automatic switch with dual outputs". Maybe an Extron VGA automatic switch would work too, if they can accept RGBS with cysnc and luma. Whatever requires the least adapters/converters, but for cables, once you get the cable, it's done. You appear to have more SCART connectors than anything else in your proposed setup anyhow, and I don't think that adding an entire second switch just for DSUB is making anything easier versus just getting SCART cables (or adapting to SCART) for the mister and PC. You're basically adding a whole extra VGA switcher just for two devices when the other six are SCART.
vicmarto wrote:Really? Does this cable exist? I would appreciate a product name or a link.
If the goal is purely to have the same sync type for all Dreamcast resolutions, knowing that if you have that you can easily convert to any other signal and sync type as required, there are a few options:

RGC 480p SCART cable: https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/seg ... -480P-MODE

RGC 480p YPbPr cable: https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/seg ... cable-480p

RA 480p SCART cable: https://retro-access.com/products/dream ... cart-cable

HDRV 480p YPbPr cable: https://www.hdretrovision.com/dreamcast

Of these cables, all of them are out of stock (and the HDRV cables are still "coming soon"), but keep an eye out. Disclaimer: I'm an HDRV distributor.
User avatar
matt
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:46 am
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by matt »

vicmarto wrote:Maybe I'm overrating the Extron RGB 203 Rxi and it's not as useful as I think for centering? What do other guys think, do you find it useful in your case?
PC monitors have accessible geometry controls already, so this hasn't been an issue for me. With 15khz monitors, I just set the overscan such that it hides the differences in screen position between consoles. Games from before the HD era take this into account and don't put anything critical near the edge of the screen.

I do have a couple of Extron RGB units, but I don't use them for position adjustment. They're most useful for converting between different sync types.
matt wrote: - The VGA ARS switchers often have trouble auto switching with 15khz inputs. This setup probably won't work automatically for all your consoles.
I didn't know about this. Any links? What is the experience of other guys?
This has been my experience with these units. There's been some discussion on this forum, which you could probably find if you search for it.

They're excellent switchers if you don't need the auto switching feature, though.
matt wrote: - I'd get a GCvideo dongle instead of modding a set of Gamecube component cables. The GCVideo will do a better job and costs less.
Again, is this true? Any links comparing the two? I thought it was the opposite, and the GCvideo still has minor compatibility issues with some minority games.
Again, this has been my experience. I've had a Gamecube component cable since the old days; I bought it from Nintendo for $30 and promptly ruined the resale value by cutting the end off and modding it to be switchable between VGA and YPbPr. It works great and I'm very happy with it. However, having tried GCVideo, I think the picture is slightly cleaner on high resolution displays; it does a better job of compensating for the chroma subsampling. It also includes some quality of life improvements such as automatic line doubling, which is a life saver if you're using a VGA monitor and want to access the system menu. It's not a big enough deal for me to get rid of my old cable, but I wouldn't pay current market value for one now that other options exist.

I believe you can find some in depth comparisons between the two if you search for it. I doubt you'd notice a difference on an SD CRT - it's more if you're using a good VGA monitor or an upscaler.
User avatar
kitty666cats
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by kitty666cats »

Guspaz wrote:
vicmarto wrote:Yes, that is the most logical and simplest thing to do. The only problem is that you would need two Extron RGB 203 Rxi, one for each output of the gscartsw.
I don't think you need any of those. For what purpose? On a PVM it's not hard to get one "good enough" geometry that works for most consoles, and on many PVMs you can effectively set up multiple geometry profiles because the "underscan" and "16:9" buttons are actually just separate geometry presets that can be independently saved. And the PC CRT has much easier to access knobs on the front, usually. It seems a bit silly trying to make everything automatic, only to have to manually adjust geometry via an Extron RGB interface every time you switch consoles!
vicmarto wrote:My proposal (gscartsw+Extron SW VGA) has also other advantages (if it works!):
  • * You keep the future possibility of adding new systems.
    * You only need one Extron RGB 203 Rxi.
    * It uses more common cables (D-SUB) in some systems (PC/Mister/DC), than SCART.
You can add new systems with my proposed setup too, just add another gscartsw or other switch in the future and chain them. And I think that with my setup you need zero Extron RGB 203 Rxi. And the cable type, well, doesn't really matter that much. And to be honest, I'm not even really proposing the gscartsw so much as "any single good automatic switch with dual outputs". Maybe an Extron VGA automatic switch would work too, if they can accept RGBS with cysnc and luma. Whatever requires the least adapters/converters, but for cables, once you get the cable, it's done. You appear to have more SCART connectors than anything else in your proposed setup anyhow, and I don't think that adding an entire second switch just for DSUB is making anything easier versus just getting SCART cables (or adapting to SCART) for the mister and PC. You're basically adding a whole extra VGA switcher just for two devices when the other six are SCART.
vicmarto wrote:Really? Does this cable exist? I would appreciate a product name or a link.
If the goal is purely to have the same sync type for all Dreamcast resolutions, knowing that if you have that you can easily convert to any other signal and sync type as required, there are a few options:

RGC 480p SCART cable: https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/seg ... -480P-MODE

RGC 480p YPbPr cable: https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/seg ... cable-480p

RA 480p SCART cable: https://retro-access.com/products/dream ... cart-cable

HDRV 480p YPbPr cable: https://www.hdretrovision.com/dreamcast

Of these cables, all of them are out of stock (and the HDRV cables are still "coming soon"), but keep an eye out. Disclaimer: I'm an HDRV distributor.

RGC UK hasn’t released theirs yet either, thefoo.83 did have some DC YPbPr cables available shortly before COVID hit. He’s back full-force now but hasn’t had any of them for sale just yet.
User avatar
Guspaz
Posts: 3136
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:37 pm
Location: Montréal, Canada

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Guspaz »

RGC started shipping those cables in 2019. They've been out for ages. They're out of stock but come back in stock periodically.

It does seem like there's a problem with the 480i sync signal on the RA and RGC cables (incorrectly generated csync), though Mike Chi said he's helped RGC design a corrected circuit, which should be used at some point in the future.
User avatar
kitty666cats
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by kitty666cats »

Guspaz wrote:RGC started shipping those cables in 2019. They've been out for ages. They're out of stock but come back in stock periodically.

It does seem like there's a problem with the 480i sync signal on the RA and RGC cables (incorrectly generated csync), though Mike Chi said he's helped RGC design a corrected circuit, which should be used at some point in the future.

I was referring to the YPbPr ones :)


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=66664

^ RE: thefoo.83 DC YPbPr cables. I am gonna shoot him an email and see when he may be making more. I don’t understand what is taking HDRV so long, it’s just an inline transcoding circuit + I suppose a sync combiner(?)
Dochartaigh
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Dochartaigh »

Guspaz wrote:It does seem like there's a problem with the 480i sync signal on the RA and RGC cables (incorrectly generated csync), though Mike Chi said he's helped RGC design a corrected circuit, which should be used at some point in the future.
Have more info on the Retro-Access cables with this issue? Has it been posted about? I haven't even opened mine up from months and months ago, but for $69 (BNC version) they better friggin work especially when they tout "PCB designed by Dan Kunz"...
User avatar
Guspaz
Posts: 3136
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:37 pm
Location: Montréal, Canada

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Guspaz »

Sorry, I misremembered Mike's statement on the subject (on Discord):
Besides the RetroAccess cable, which AFAIK works in both modes (though I haven't tried it personally), all the other ones seem to take weird short cuts in sync generation. Which is a bit odd, as the Dreamcast outputs a perfect 480i CSYNC that can be tapped directly (or just pass the composite/luma line).
The RetroAccess cable is reportedly the one that works correctly with sync, and the RGC one should be fixed in the near future.
User avatar
vicmarto
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:43 am

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by vicmarto »

It's a shame, because... I love those extron boxes! But honestly, you guys are right and it is possible to make the chain much simpler. For example, following a much more standard configuration:
  • Image

    CLICK picture for full preview with links.
What do you think?


I need help with a few things though:
  • * If I understood correctly what Guspaz commented (thank you!), the RetroAccess cable DOES work correctly. And, on the other hand, the Dreamcast cable from retrogamingcables has sync problems? Please confirm.

    * SCART–D-SUB cable recommendations? To connect the gscartsw output to the VGA monitor and the Extron RGB 203 Rxi.

    * D-SUB–SCART cable recommendations? To connect the PC with GroovyArcade to the gscartsw.

    * What is the difference between these two cables? It's for a Nintendo 64 with RGB mod (basic mod). First cable, and second cable. It seems that the difference is... the type of sync? One is csync, and the other is sync on luma. If true, think the preferred one is... csync?. Please confirm.
Thank you all for such good advice.
Dochartaigh
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Dochartaigh »

Guspaz wrote:The RetroAccess cable is reportedly the one that works correctly with sync, and the RGC one should be fixed in the near future.
Thanks for looking that up and good to know - that RA cable was expensive and I'm hoping it worked correctly!!! (whenever I get off my butt and decide to re-wire my setup for it lol)


vicmarto wrote: * SCART–D-SUB cable recommendations? To connect the gscartsw output to the VGA monitor and the Extron RGB 203 Rxi.

* D-SUB–SCART cable recommendations? To connect the PC with GroovyArcade to the gscartsw.
[/list]
So there's WookieeWin on eBay who makes the custom SCART to BNC and BNC to SCART cables tons of us use for their PVM/BVM's – I would contact him and see if he can make you one with DB15 instead. I'm not the most well-versed in this though, hope some others can chime in – I've been going SCART to BNC mostly, and although it's stupidly easy to get a BNC to DB15/VGA cable from many different places it would be better to have one cable instead of two.

Does your Gscart have the DB15/VGA out on it? Just googled and some did like I thought...

Have you also confirmed your exact PC CRT monitor can take combined sync of whatever sort? None of mine I've EVER owned (and I've owned a bunch) will take RGBS like others have said theirs take... Only a few would take RGsB...



vicmarto wrote: * What is the difference between these two cables? It's for a Nintendo 64 with RGB mod (basic mod). First cable, and second cable. It seems that the difference is... the type of sync? One is csync, and the other is sync on luma. If true, think the preferred one is... csync?. Please confirm.
[/list]
You need to make sure you get the correct cable for your exact system. Depending on your SNES (can even depend on region for some consoles) or which exact N64 mod you do, each could use a slightly different cable, possibly with different sync - that's why they sell a couple different versions of it. You can't just choose csync unless your console can use that exact cable (prob does but just need to check).You can read up on RetroRGB website about all the versions if you like.
User avatar
Guspaz
Posts: 3136
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:37 pm
Location: Montréal, Canada

Re: Frankenstein dual CRT monitor system (8 consoles)? Possi

Post by Guspaz »

The Viewsonic monitor that was my last PC CRT supported csync and SoG. If your monitor does too, you can just use a passive cable adapter. If you can't find a SCART-to-VGA adapter, you could always use a SCART-to-BNC and BNC-to-VGA adapters with a BNC cable (or some BNC couplers) in between, or something like a SCART2VGA (it doesn't convert sync, just adapts, gives you the audio separate, and has a stripper). If you need to convert, there's something like the SyncSlayer, or the Extron SC 210. The SC 210 can convert basically any input sync type to any output sync type. I bought one on eBay years ago for $60, I've seen them since for as low as $30, though $50 seems to be a typical price. You also showed the Extron PA 250 in your original diagram, which can do enough of the same thing, so if you already have one, that works. But if the monitor supports RGBS, you may not need any device, just passive cable conversion.
Post Reply