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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:54 pm 


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Location: New York
Yes, it’s precisely the same “issue”


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:39 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 264
Is it? The Dreamcast issue has more to do with inadequate sampling in some devices causing a loss of picture detail.

The 'problem' that's being discussed above is more subjective and relating to aspect ratio. The RT5X's DTV sampling is perfectly fine, with pillarboxing you'd see just as clearly on a PVM.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:23 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1703
ross wrote:
with pillarboxing you'd see just as clearly on a PVM.


Though on a CRT you'd be able to stretch it to your heart's content. Some flat panel TVs do let you do that too without much detriment to the picture.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:31 pm 


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Location: New York
ross wrote:
Is it? The Dreamcast issue has more to do with inadequate sampling in some devices causing a loss of picture detail.

The 'problem' that's being discussed above is more subjective and relating to aspect ratio. The RT5X's DTV sampling is perfectly fine, with pillarboxing you'd see just as clearly on a PVM.

Sure, incorrect sampling vs. different choice of display aspect are not the same thing, point taken. The former is definitely more objectively an “issue” than the latter.

The point here is that some consoles (DC most notoriously) and some games (many on Gamecube) render only 640 active pixels wide, while others render closer to 720 wide. Incorrect sampling and aesthetically unpleasing display aspects are both just side effects of that underlying fact or “issue”.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:43 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 575
At least in my experience one way of dealing with the issue (which I first encountered on the gamecube) is to use an Extron DSC 301 HD because that always (when used with a GCvideo adapter) treats the 720x480 DTV signal as having square pixels. For lots of gamecube titles which render at 640 active pixels wide this means you get a perfect image with no loss of detail. For the games which render slightly wider the Extron gives you granular control over the width and hight of the image so you can correct the AR when necessary (I actually don’t even bother anymore because often the AR error is barely noticeable and I’d prefer zero interpolation). I’d love to be able to retire the Extron to cut down on input lag which is already higher than I’d like on my TV.

IMO all retro scalers should have an option to treat 720x480 as having square pixels. I think it only presents problems from the Wii onwards which for memory started using the entire 720 wide area.


Last edited by strayan on Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:18 pm 


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Location: Sweden
strayan wrote:
IMO all retro scalers should have an option to treat 720x480 as having square pixels. I think it only presents problems from the Wii onwards which for memory started using the entire 720 wide area.

In my measurements, no Wii game has higher than 686px h resolution (this includes the dashboard).
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OSSC TV Compatibility report thread


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:07 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 575
Ah cool. Yeah just did a more thorough check and the dash appears to be:

670x456 4:3
686x456 16:9

Edit: lol I see you’ve been through this before: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62790


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:17 pm 


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Harrumph wrote:
In my measurements, no Wii game has higher than 686px h resolution (this includes the dashboard).

The N64 VC titles use 704 pixels
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GCVideo releases: https://github.com/ikorb/gcvideo/releases


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:06 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 575
Ignore. Made error.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:08 am 


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Anyone here have any success with weird refresh rates for Arcade PCB's such as those with 54hz? One example are Midway MK titles. I get audio and a weird image on the bottom. I check every firmware update in hopes there was a fix for another that might work lol.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:37 am 


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hyp36rmax wrote:
Anyone here have any success with weird refresh rates for Arcade PCB's such as those with 54hz? One example are Midway MK titles. I get audio and a weird image on the bottom. I check every firmware update in hopes there was a fix for another that might work lol.


Tried any other displays, and of course switched framelock mode on and off?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:56 am 


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What do I need to do to get sound out of my Tim Worthington RGB modded Atari 2600 with the RetroTink 5x?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:41 am 


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Unseen wrote:
Harrumph wrote:
In my measurements, no Wii game has higher than 686px h resolution (this includes the dashboard).

The N64 VC titles use 704 pixels

Right, I never checked those. Makes sense that they’re done the same way as the N64 Zelda games on GC.
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OSSC TV Compatibility report thread


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:34 am 


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Lomax wrote:
What do I need to do to get sound out of my Tim Worthington RGB modded Atari 2600 with the RetroTink 5x?


Just to answer my own question - you need to wire up the audio the way that Tim says *not* to do it, here:

http://etim.net.au/2600rgb/2600rgb_wiring.pdf

If you make this change, just make sure you don't accidentally plug power into the audio socket, because the circuit will no longer be protected against that.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:58 pm 



Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 2
Hi everyone and hi mikechi2!

I recently upgraded to a 5x and I love it! It's by far the best my consoles have ever looked :D I actually got a genuine "wow" from a friend I showed it to.

EDIT: I'd missed the fact that 50hz and 60hz content already keep track of their own different resolution selections so what I was waffling about here doesn't really matter.

On a similar note would it be possible to have the option to hide certain output resolutions and scanline options from the shortcut button cycle? (Perhaps permanently visible from the main menu, with a button & icon to toggle whether it appears in the shortcut list?) I'm aware this may complicate the main menu UI but I only ever use 3 output resolutions and it takes a long time to cycle through them all, and one isn't supported at all by my TV. The same thing for scanlines would be nice but certainly not as high priority.

As you can tell I like to simplify things so other people can use the equipment properly with minimal pushback :)


Last edited by Psiloc on Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:59 pm 


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Posts: 468
I've got a GC Gameboy Player (using GBI) question. I downloaded the latest version of GBI and it said for the 5x to use :

RetroTINK-5X Pro? → gbihf-ossc.dol+cli or gbi-carby+rt5x.dol+cli

Since I don't have a carby and I use Nintendo component cables I chose gbihf-ossc.dol+cli

When I run this it does indeed say GBI 360P but the image looks kind of off to me. Maybe this is how it's supposed to be? I'm not sure:

Spoiler: show
Image


This is how it looks using the regular gbihf player (not a great picture but you get the idea)

Spoiler: show
Image


And this is how it looks in 480p mode which is usually 16:9 on my TV but not with the GBI:

Spoiler: show
Image


To me the 480p looks best but it has an annoying flashing line on the bottom so that's out. The regular gbihf version looks kind of stretched funny (Samus looks very tall and narrow) but the 360p version looks really blocky. I'm wondering if my TV just can't do the 360p resolution for some reason. The smoothing interpolation option mitigates this somewhat but it still doesn't look quite right. Any ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:56 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2017
Posts: 189
With the all the scanline modes and added features the RetroTink 5X seems like the gift that keeps on giving. Personally I haven't bought one because I'm hoping Mike will do a new revision in the near future with an added HDMI input to combat the Morph and OSSC Pro. This because I want to a digital to digital solution to line double/triple my Xbox HDMI, Wii Dual, GC Dual, DC Digital and PSTV. Anyone in the same boat?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:36 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 247
Tempest_2084 wrote:
I've got a GC Gameboy Player (using GBI) question. I downloaded the latest version of GBI and it said for the 5x to use :

RetroTINK-5X Pro? → gbihf-ossc.dol+cli or gbi-carby+rt5x.dol+cli

Since I don't have a carby and I use Nintendo component cables I chose gbihf-ossc.dol+cli

When I run this it does indeed say GBI 360P but the image looks kind of off to me. Maybe this is how it's supposed to be? I'm not sure:

Spoiler: show
Image


This is how it looks using the regular gbihf player (not a great picture but you get the idea)

Spoiler: show
Image


And this is how it looks in 480p mode which is usually 16:9 on my TV but not with the GBI:

Spoiler: show
Image


To me the 480p looks best but it has an annoying flashing line on the bottom so that's out. The regular gbihf version looks kind of stretched funny (Samus looks very tall and narrow) but the 360p version looks really blocky. I'm wondering if my TV just can't do the 360p resolution for some reason. The smoothing interpolation option mitigates this somewhat but it still doesn't look quite right. Any ideas?


I think the 360p example looks correct. The goal of the 360p mode is to chase the sharpest (blocky) possible pixels.

H6rdc0re wrote:
With the all the scanline modes and added features the RetroTink 5X seems like the gift that keeps on giving. Personally I haven't bought one because I'm hoping Mike will do a new revision in the near future with an added HDMI input to combat the Morph and OSSC Pro. This because I want to a digital to digital solution to line double/triple my Xbox HDMI, Wii Dual, GC Dual, DC Digital and PSTV. Anyone in the same boat?


Nah, if I wanted to build something new, it'd have to be 4K to be worth it. It would probably be best to have more advanced processing than line-double/triple (aka. integer scale) for those 480p+ 3D consoles as well. That's something complex enough that'd I'd need to spin up a "real" company to engineer properly, since it's beyond my limited skillz, haha. Finally semi-retired from one "real" company, don't want to start another one :wink:


Last edited by mikechi2 on Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:00 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:42 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 247
awe444 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
The RT5X samples 720 active pixels and projects that into a 4:3 window, per the CEA-861 standard with a pixel aspect ratio of 10/11. For the games that incorrectly used square pixels (which causes them to look skinny), the 1080p (under) mode should stretch it back out, while maintaining optimal sampling/auto-phase.

In general, this entire area is a mess due to inconsistent practices across consoles and developers, so my default position has been to display it "like a CRT" (which is exactly what the 4:3 mode does).

I'm a bit surprised to hear about Xbox, though. From my (limited) experience, Xbox games did it correctly. It was just DC and a mix and match of titles on other consoles that used square pixels when it should've been 10/11.

Thanks Mike for the clear explanation. Glad to hear that the 1080p Under more already gives an option to display the pixels as square.

Please consider the feature request of adding a third sampling mode for 480p that does the non-generic (phase-adjusted) 640-wide square pixels inside an 858 total signal. It would live alongside the 720-wide and “Generic 16:9” sampling options and provide support for more output modes than just 1080 under.

Keep up the great work and thanks for all the time and love you’ve put into your products.


Thanks! Yup, eventually I would like to just have 4:3, 3:2, and 16:9 modes available for all resolutions with as many combinations optimally sampled as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:31 am 


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Posts: 468
mikechi2 wrote:
I think the 360p example looks correct. The goal of the 360p mode is to chase the sharpest (blocky) possible pixels.

Ah ok. What are the recommended setting if I don't want it quite so sharp? Just turn on the smooth interpolation?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:05 am 


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Hey mike, feeding the RT5X via SCART port from my PC, it doesnt sync up at any resolution, but I know the PC signal is fine because it works if I plug directly to a VGA monitor. Is it because the sync from the PC VGA is too hot? Anything you could recommend to get it working? A 330R or 470R inline with the sync maybe?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:10 am 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 247
Josh128 wrote:
Hey mike, feeding the RT5X via SCART port from my PC, it doesnt sync up at any resolution, but I know the PC signal is fine because it works if I plug directly to a VGA monitor. Is it because the sync from the PC VGA is too hot? Anything you could recommend to get it working? A 330R or 470R inline with the sync maybe?


I think you need some sort of sync combiner to convert the HV sync from PC to composite sync for SCART.

Tempest_2084 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
I think the 360p example looks correct. The goal of the 360p mode is to chase the sharpest (blocky) possible pixels.

Ah ok. What are the recommended setting if I don't want it quite so sharp? Just turn on the smooth interpolation?


Try using soft interpolation or the smoother. Set the h sampling to generic instead of GBI optimal.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:45 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Hey mike, feeding the RT5X via SCART port from my PC, it doesnt sync up at any resolution, but I know the PC signal is fine because it works if I plug directly to a VGA monitor. Is it because the sync from the PC VGA is too hot? Anything you could recommend to get it working? A 330R or 470R inline with the sync maybe?




It should not be that because I forced my ATI video card to output composite sync via CRTEmuDriver/VMM. It doesnt work either way (separate or composite). It also makes the GBS-Control freak out. Gives a digitally garbled picture and updates at 3-5fps or so, but the colors are correct and you can at least see what you are trying to display. Its almost got to be the sync amplitude. Whats the maximum sync level it can deal with?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:14 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 247
Josh128 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Hey mike, feeding the RT5X via SCART port from my PC, it doesnt sync up at any resolution, but I know the PC signal is fine because it works if I plug directly to a VGA monitor. Is it because the sync from the PC VGA is too hot? Anything you could recommend to get it working? A 330R or 470R inline with the sync maybe?




It should not be that because I forced my ATI video card to output composite sync via CRTEmuDriver/VMM. It doesnt work either way (separate or composite). It also makes the GBS-Control freak out. Gives a digitally garbled picture and updates at 3-5fps or so, but the colors are correct and you can at least see what you are trying to display. Its almost got to be the sync amplitude. Whats the maximum sync level it can deal with?


That sounds odd. Sync amplitude can go quite high, up to 5V and still work - just with the risk of long-term damage.

I have had good success with HDMI -> component converter boxes. Sync is much simpler with component video. I was even able to generate super resolution 240p with custom mode-lines on a Quadro card as well as an Intel GPU, eliminating the need for the old ATI cards. It was a bit of fiddling though, at some point it'd be great for someone to write up a guide to streamline the process.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:26 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 575
Sync is also much simpler with Sync on Green wink wink. Plus I could use an existing Extron RGB interface to convert RGB with seperate H and V sync to sync on green.

Being able to treat 720x480 as a 3:2 resolution is going to be super cool, thanks mike!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:39 am 



Joined: 11 May 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Tokyo
Is anyone else getting this line on 1080p (under) on 1.98 and 1.99?

https://imgur.com/a/lC0sjk9

I have not tried reverting to older firmware yet, but this seems to only affect 1080p (under) on 1.98 and 1.99 as far as I have seen, as it was definitely not there before.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:14 pm 


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Steven wrote:
Is anyone else getting this line on 1080p (under) on 1.98 and 1.99?

https://imgur.com/a/lC0sjk9

I have not tried reverting to older firmware yet, but this seems to only affect 1080p (under) on 1.98 and 1.99 as far as I have seen, as it was definitely not there before.


I'm on 1.98 and it seems fine for me. USA PS2 Slim with component cables.

https://imgur.com/a/vdwepC0


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:34 pm 



Joined: 11 May 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Tokyo
TooBeaucoup wrote:
Steven wrote:
Is anyone else getting this line on 1080p (under) on 1.98 and 1.99?

https://imgur.com/a/lC0sjk9

I have not tried reverting to older firmware yet, but this seems to only affect 1080p (under) on 1.98 and 1.99 as far as I have seen, as it was definitely not there before.


I'm on 1.98 and it seems fine for me. USA PS2 Slim with component cables.

https://imgur.com/a/vdwepC0

Alright, interesting. I tried some garbage PowerA PS2/Gamecube/Xbox 3-in-1 component cable and the line is still there. Tried Dreamcast S-video and it's not there on S-video. Tried the official Sony PS1 S-video cable on PS2 and it's not there. Maybe my YPbPr input has become weird, but I haven't even used the RetroTINK recently since I've been using the Dreamcast + OSSC exclusively for the past 3 weeks. Doesn't hurt anything, but it's still weird. I'll try different HDMI and power cables and see if that fixes it. It's not just the PS2, either, as I plugged the same HR Retrovision cable into my Nomad and it had the line as well.

Okay, I tried a few different power and HDMI cables. No change. I guess I'll just ignore it unless it gets worse or something.

So I went back to my original cables and everything, cycled through the resolutions to see what all is available besides 1080p (under) and it's gone now. Not sure what to make of that, but okay.

Well, back again. It's apparently legal to do construction in a residential area at 0120 in Tokyo and the noise is kind of annoying, so I tried it again. Now the line came back, but it's bigger and now it's purple. Then I cycled through the resolutions again and it went away again. How strange.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:35 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2017
Posts: 189
mikechi2 wrote:
Nah, if I wanted to build something new, it'd have to be 4K to be worth it. It would probably be best to have more advanced processing than line-double/triple (aka. integer scale) for those 480p+ 3D consoles as well. That's something complex enough that'd I'd need to spin up a "real" company to engineer properly, since it's beyond my limited skillz, haha. Finally semi-retired from one "real" company, don't want to start another one :wink:


That's too bad but I understand your stance. Thanks for your reply. :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:27 pm 


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I havent updated FW in a long while. Maybe that will help my syncing to PC issue. On another note, since Im apparently hellbent on using the 5X to feed CRTs, I was thinking back to my request for a 384p centered in a 480p/31kHz frame for allowing perfect scaling on 25kHz arcade games on 31kHz monitors. This would work but requires you stretch the raster vertically quite a bit, maybe more than many monitors are capable of.

So I had another wish list idea. I was recently playing with 31kHz interlaced resolutions on my GroovyMAME box and feeding to my Hitachi dual-scan and my VGA monitors, and noticed that 768i and 960i are actual things that work on both of those CRTs. Playing 384p games in 768i looks damned good (better than if unevenly scaled to 480p) and doesnt require stretching the hell out of your raster (if using centered timings) on a CRT. In fact, on the Hitachi, its so fine it almost looks progressive unless you are displaying small text or really fine grids. Ive found that 384p games look as good in 768i mode as they do in the 384p centered in a 480p window and stretched. This would be a fine solution/workaround for getting 25kHz arcades working flawlessly with integer scaling on 31k only monitors.

Its a unique use case but would be a very cool feature indeed for arcade setups still clinging to CRTs.


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