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 Post subject: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jitter
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:35 pm 


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I like my Trinitrons. Have quite a number of consumer TVs and seen even more. One thing that always bothers me though is that many/most seem to have 'The Wobble'. I'm talking about a minor horizontal shifting of individual lines that make high contrast edges appear fuzzy/wobbly. Like, when you turn on the TV the OSD is generally jumping around wildly and you can see lines shift like a centimeter left and right. But once the TV gets a signal it stabilizes, but not quite 100%. I've seen this discussed on multiple forums over the years, but I wonder if we can get a bit more to the bottom of this and maybe find a cause & fix.

This 'wobble' generally happens on all inputs, so with my PSone I oberserved it with official composite & S-Video cables as well as shielded RGC SCART RGBS SoL cables. The wobble is always on the OSD as well as the console image. All the consoles look perfectly fine through an OSSC with zero movement on static images, so it's not a fundamental defect with the sources.


Here's a quick list of sources / TVs / cables etc. that I've recently observed. I've got more, this is just what I can recall with certainty right now.

- Sony FX30 (No 1) FE-2 Chassis | Medium-High Wobble
Seems to wobble on all inputs, tested with a 3-Chip SNES and NTSC-U PSone. Set is in good condition otherwise.

- Sony FX30 (No 2) FE-2 Chassis | None-Low Wobble
Zero wobble on the 3-Chip SNES, couldn't really observe any on the 480i consoles (Wii/OGXB/PS2), very light wobble on the PSone and SMS1. Strange that this one is so much better than the other FX30, it has ~10000 extra hours on the counter, so it's not really about being in better condition.

- Sony X5 & Sony C5 FE-1 Chassis | High Wobble
I own two of these and seen at least half a dozen, they all wobble, every source, every input, OSD, always.

- Sony LT1 FE-2 Chassis | Low Wobble
Haven't extensively tested this one but it wobbles a bit with the PSone over RGBS SoL

- Sony X1 BE-3D Chassis | Low Wobble
Haven't used this TV much this year, but it has very low to low wobble from my memory and shows a bit when I recently used it with the PSone

- Sony FQ10 BX-1 Chassis x2 | High Wobble
I tried two of these, very recently manufactured with incredibly low hours, looking like they were just unboxed. Didn't mess with them much yet, but with the PSone and 3-Chip SNES they have severe wobble. Perhaps the worst I've seen.


I'm curious why this defect seems to happen. Haven't seen it on PVMs or things like a Commodore Monitor or any PC CRT. Just consumer Trinitrons. It's interesting that it sometimes varies between consoles and that I own one TV that has basically none, puzzling. Something strange I've noticed is the worse a set has the wobble the worse the color bleed pattern in the 240p testsuite looks:

Spoiler: show
Image


Basically the more bleed / moire it has like this (not just a camera thing, also visible in person), the worse the wobble, or it's caused by that. The one FX30 with zero wobble has perfectly sharp bars.

I wonder if there's something that can be adjusted to reduce this wobbling. There's untold amounts of undocumented options in the service menu and I wonder if there's some kind of phase or alignment that can be tweaked. Any adjustments to geometry, focus, G2/screen, dynamic convergence, static convergence, yoke position, magnetism and positioning etc. ever had any effect on this, as far as I can tell.

Edit:

Here's a static picture of the wobble:

Image

Here's a video link:

https://imgur.com/a/HVGLwBQ

Image

This is from an X5, I've seen half a dozen and they all look like that with every source, every signal type, in different locations and circumstances, all settings I tried and the wobble is on the OSD as well. I'd rate this wobble 'High' on the Richter scale of Sony Wobble. Make sure to watch the whole 10s video, it sometimes comes in waves-o-wobble. Also I'd say it actually looks worse in person because you see the whole screen and there's always something wobbling in the corner of your eye.


Last edited by ASDR on Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:59 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:27 pm 


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Not sure if you are speaking about the "micro-jitter" we discussed on a thread some time back, but someone had a really plausible explanation for it and it was that it is basically caused by induced voltages/noise on the jungle/video chip. I noted that pretty much all my TVs that have digital menus (ie jungle chips) have it in some way or form, even if its really hard to see. My Wells K7000 arcade monitor in my Mace / Neo Geo/MAME cab does not have it. AT ALL. It does not have a jungle chip.

Now, my VGA monitors dont appear to have it either, and they do have some kind of jungle for the digital menus, so who knows. It does seem to be more prevalent/noticeable in consumer Trinitrons though.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:50 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Not sure if you are speaking about the "micro-jitter" we discussed on a thread some time back, but someone had a really plausible explanation for it and it was that it is basically caused by induced voltages/noise on the jungle/video chip. I noted that pretty much all my TVs that have digital menus (ie jungle chips) have it in some way or form, even if its really hard to see. My Wells K7000 arcade monitor in my Mace / Neo Geo/MAME cab does not have it. AT ALL. It does not have a jungle chip.

Now, my VGA monitors dont appear to have it either, and they do have some kind of jungle for the digital menus, so who knows. It does seem to be more prevalent/noticeable in consumer Trinitrons though.


I've seen this effect on a wells k7400 chassis with certain tubes. I can live with pretty much every "flaw" a crt may have but this one drives me crazy.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:42 pm 



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Yeah this wobble is pretty normal, and generally not visible from normal viewing distances. I guess when you go back and forth with newer technologies like LCD's or OLED then you notice it again at first each time you spend time on the CRT again. I remember that I also saw it on my BVM sets although a bit less pronounced.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:22 am 


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As always with such things it's hard to take pictures, but here:

Image

Basically 'micro jitter', lines of pixels are shifted left/right like half a pixel for a split second and it's happening all over the screen.

Taiyaki wrote:
Yeah this wobble is pretty normal, and generally not visible from normal viewing distances. I guess when you go back and forth with newer technologies like LCD's or OLED then you notice it again at first each time you spend time on the CRT again. I remember that I also saw it on my BVM sets although a bit less pronounced.


Yeah, I also think it's not very visible on typical 480i TV/movie footage with normal couch viewing distance. But I mostly use smaller TVs (14"/21"/25") closeup with video game content and high contrast edges, so I find it fairly visible and it can be distracting.

cyborc wrote:
I've seen this effect on a wells k7400 chassis with certain tubes. I can live with pretty much every "flaw" a crt may have but this one drives me crazy.


Hence this thread! Maybe we can figure out something? I think it's interesting how it differs in strength between CRTs of the same chassis and even the exact same model and how it's quite different between Trinitrons. And it's clearly not like newer or lower hours / better condition screens have it less, I have TVs made in ~2005 with only a couple of hundred hours on the timer that have it terribly bad and then TVs from the mid 90s that have been worn out that are far better.

Josh128 wrote:
Not sure if you are speaking about the "micro-jitter" we discussed on a thread some time back, but someone had a really plausible explanation for it and it was that it is basically caused by induced voltages/noise on the jungle/video chip. I noted that pretty much all my TVs that have digital menus (ie jungle chips) have it in some way or form, even if its really hard to see. My Wells K7000 arcade monitor in my Mace / Neo Geo/MAME cab does not have it. AT ALL. It does not have a jungle chip.

Now, my VGA monitors dont appear to have it either, and they do have some kind of jungle for the digital menus, so who knows. It does seem to be more prevalent/noticeable in consumer Trinitrons though.


Horizontal micro-jitter is a good word to describe it. I think I might've read that one as well, but Llnk to thread? Any relevant conclusions?

I have not seen this issue in PVMs, PC CRTs and high-end big screen WEGA type displays from Sony. Guess it's more of a low-end / mid-tier issue.


I think it's interesting how the micro-jitter relates to the moire like effects that can be seen in certain test patterns. And how it seems different consoles cause it to a different degree on some sets, indicating that maybe the type/stability of sync has an impact. Or how it hasn't really improved over the years with better & fancier TVs. Somebody smarter than me figure it out, please :D


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:51 am 


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The tv supplies its own sync signal when none are present so it can show the OSD.

In some sets I have noticed the OSD is jittery like your first picture, until a sync signal from an external source is locked onto.

Maybe the internal OSD sync input to the jungle has something to do with it?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:43 pm 


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I've seen it in just about every type of CRT if you look closely enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:40 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
I've seen it in just about every type of CRT if you look closely enough.


Most every CRT, but man I swear my K7000 doesnt do it at all. I need to look again. I really think the idea it may be related to noise on the jungle chips / traces to and from them is on the right track.

Also the image shown above is probably different to what you and I are talking about-- his picture looks BAD. Ive seen that before too, but thats different than the micro jitter. What Im talking about (and I believe what you are talking about) really wouldnt show up in a still photo. Its very subtle, but OCD inducing.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:31 pm 


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My 27" Sharp has this issue but it doesn't show up in games as far as I can tell.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:15 pm 


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Try unplug the degausing wire from the chassis to see if it clears up.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:40 am 


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Syntax wrote:
The tv supplies its own sync signal when none are present so it can show the OSD.

In some sets I have noticed the OSD is jittery like your first picture, until a sync signal from an external source is locked onto.

Maybe the internal OSD sync input to the jungle has something to do with it?


Every Sony I got here has the OSD jumping all over the place when there's no signal, and I think that's an interesting theory, this causing interference. There's all kinds of OSD/sync related settings in the service menu, but they're cryptic and undocumented in the service manual. Somebody mentioned another thread where some sort of interference on the jungle was mentioned as a cause?

maxtherabbit wrote:
I've seen it in just about every type of CRT if you look closely enough.


I mean Sony consumer CRT TVs, virtually all, I'd agree. But my Sony PC CRTs, my Sony PVMs, my Commodore monitor etc. absolutely don't have it, eyes pressed to screen and waiting for minutes, just not there.

Josh128 wrote:
Also the image shown above is probably different to what you and I are talking about-- his picture looks BAD. Ive seen that before too, but thats different than the micro jitter. What Im talking about (and I believe what you are talking about) really wouldnt show up in a still photo. Its very subtle, but OCD inducing.


It's always hard to capture this in a picture, and I of coursed picked the most visible and worst instance I could find, though. They generally micro jitter a lot and then every once in a while a scanline really jumps a pixel left or right. Not sure if I can do better.

---
EDIT: I'VE ADDED A VIDEO LINK TO THE MAIN POST! PLEASE WATCH LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE!
---

But this is what most Sony Trinitrons look like here. If that's BAD then Sony TVs are BAD. I've seen half a dozen of the always recommended FE-1 chassis / X5 / C5 models and they all wobble like this. The picture was from the highly regarded FX30. I've own multiple FQ10s, pretty much the last chassis Sony designed, and seen even more, they all have that jitter, some of the worst I've seen in fact. With all kinds of different sources, SNES, PS1, PI2SCART, SMS, Famicom, Composite, RGB, S-Video etc. And many of those were really recent screens in perfect conditions with at most hundreds of usage hours on the timer. Look at my list, most chassis have this exact issue. I've seen like 35+ Sony TVs in the last 18 months or whatever, that's what they nearly all look like. If it was just a TV or two and only a console or two and only in one location or so, I'd chalk it up to bad luck or my specific circumstances, but at this point it's pretty clear this is just a nearly universal condition on these machines. (Maybe it's only with me in the room...)

Syntax wrote:
Try unplug the degausing wire from the chassis to see if it clears up.


I've always read service manual warnings about doing that, is that really a good idea?


---
Generally, it's interesting that it doesn't seem to be an issue that is intrinsic to the TVs. Like I said in the list above, I own two FX30 FE-2 chassis TVs, one has virtually no wobble and the other has a 'normal' amount. They looked identically inside, service menu shows same hardware / software revision. And the better one is even heavily used with ~10k additional hours on the timer. So I'd assume there is a fix, some kind of component that can be replaced, pot adjusted, service menu setting changed...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:44 pm 


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Unplugging the degauss wire shouldn't hurt anything and a really quick way to check its not that interfering.
A friend has fixed a set doing this test.

If you want to be safe about it I guess unplug it after turning on the set so its circuit has cycled whilst loaded, it only gets powered once on startup.

The internal sync signal should be easy enough to disable also, it will require lifting a crystal leg on most sets.

Depending on voltage supplied the crystals can produce slightly different frequencies, maybe that's the variable?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:08 pm 


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Ok, Ive seen the video uploaded and it does look like the micro-jitter present on most large Sonys, but as you say, it may be on the worst end of whats considered normal. This is an interesting topic. I know I made bold claims about my k7000 not having it, I need to take a short zoomed in tripod video to really see.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:50 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Ok, Ive seen the video uploaded and it does look like the micro-jitter present on most large Sonys, but as you say, it may be on the worst end of whats considered normal. This is an interesting topic. I know I made bold claims about my k7000 not having it, I need to take a short zoomed in tripod video to really see.


I can confirm the k7000, in my experience, did not exhibit this effect at all, but the K7400 did. The worst offender I've seen were the Orion manufactured Toshibas. Every single one I've had/seen had this jitter effect and it was pretty awful for 240p stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:43 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
Ok, Ive seen the video uploaded and it does look like the micro-jitter present on most large Sonys, but as you say, it may be on the worst end of whats considered normal. This is an interesting topic. I know I made bold claims about my k7000 not having it, I need to take a short zoomed in tripod video to really see.

Just watched the video too. I wouldn't even say that's the worst end of what's considered normal. I'd call it completely normal. He's filming from right up to the screen, and from that close up that's what every single CRT I've ever had would produce. Although if you look for it you'll find it, from say 2~3 feet away it shouldn't be distracting in use. Also keep in mind there's sensitivity to take into account. When viewed in person different people might see it more or less pronounced than in that video in my experience (some people I've shown it too couldn't see it at all no matter how hard they tried looking). I'd just call it an aspect of the technology, the same way geometrical warping and convergence issues are part of it too. With the good comes the less good, and even the bad, but I still love CRT's, and nothing can beat them for our classic game consoles.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:58 pm 


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Ugh, been busy, only got around to reply now, sorry everybody.

Syntax wrote:
Unplugging the degauss wire shouldn't hurt anything and a really quick way to check its not that interfering.
A friend has fixed a set doing this test.

If you want to be safe about it I guess unplug it after turning on the set so its circuit has cycled whilst loaded, it only gets powered once on startup.


The problem is the plug is in one of the very bad no good areas of the TV. In any case, I think this is a great suggestion. I didn't have time to actually try anything, but I've been looking through schematics to understand how the degauss coil gets triggered. Here's the FE-1 chassis:

Image

The degaussing coil is driven by mains voltage. Makes sense, you need a powerful magnet field and you want it to whip back and forth since you want to randomize the magnetism in the tube/grill. AC line 1 goes through a fuse, mains switch, line filter T601 and then finally into relay RY601, which is how the microcontroller turns on a standby TV. From there it goes down to pin 2&3 of the CN602 connector where both degaussing coils are connected in series. The other side of the coil is connected to AC line 2 through a thermistor, THP601. This seems logical, the thermistors will self-heat once current flows and then shut off the coil with its increasing resistance. It'll also decay slowly instead of abruptly switching off, exactly like manually moving an external degausser away from the screen. I've never seen a PTC with three terminals, so I'm not sure exactly what all this is about, I guess there's just two thermistors in there like in a variable resistor. The right side output of the thermistor is shorted through two jumpers, I assume this is to get it to heat up and shut off faster. Many other TVs seem to employ a two terminal version.

The coil can be unplugged through CN602 to verify that it's causing interference and it seems most Sony chassis also have a header like CN603 to easily measure degaussing voltage and any leakage from the thermistor.

I'll have to verify all of this on an actual live TV of course, but an explanation for the wobble could be continued interference from the degaussing coil and the difference in TVs of the same line could be explained by a failing / different tolerance in the thermistor.

We all know that consumer electronics like game consoles and TVs often do stupid things to save a few cents, so I thought it would be interesting to look at this circuit in a highend screen, here's a PVM L5:

Image

At first, this looks disappointingly similar, with a few varistors sprinkled in for transient protection, I assume. If you're building a PVM, you got that varistor money. BUT, if you actually look at the full circuit, there's an important difference. The relay that switches on the degaussing coil is a dedicated one, not the single master relay that turns on the entire TV. This would be necessary just because these CRTs have a degauss button or menu entry, but it would also have the side effect that the degauss coil could be 100% switched off while cheaper CRTs rely entirely on the thermistor to stop current flow. I checked a few fancier, larger TV's schematics and they all seem to have a dedicated relay that they presumably keep off during normal operation.

So, definitively something to investigate!

Syntax wrote:
The internal sync signal should be easy enough to disable also, it will require lifting a crystal leg on most sets.

Depending on voltage supplied the crystals can produce slightly different frequencies, maybe that's the variable?


Good idea as well, I'll also consider investigating this. Sorry to ask again, but there was a thread already discussing interference at the jungle chip etc.?

Josh128 wrote:
Ok, Ive seen the video uploaded and it does look like the micro-jitter present on most large Sonys, but as you say, it may be on the worst end of whats considered normal. This is an interesting topic. I know I made bold claims about my k7000 not having it, I need to take a short zoomed in tripod video to really see.


So I'd say it's the worst on the FE-1 (KV-xxX5, KV-xxC5) and BX-1 (KV-xxFQ10, KV-xxCL10, KV-xxCT1) chassis. So this video is basically as bad as it gets. This was filmed in the corner (see the mediocre convergence :-)) of a 21" X5. The only very small TVs up & running right now is a 14" LT1 and it definitively has it, but far less severe. This one is also the only FE-2 chassis TV without a rotation coil, so we can exclude that as a source of interference.

I don't really have the super large & fancy WEGA type TVs in my house to compare. I just can't transport / store / setup 30-40" screens.

Taiyaki wrote:
Just watched the video too. I wouldn't even say that's the worst end of what's considered normal. I'd call it completely normal. He's filming from right up to the screen, and from that close up that's what every single CRT I've ever had would produce. Although if you look for it you'll find it, from say 2~3 feet away it shouldn't be distracting in use. Also keep in mind there's sensitivity to take into account. When viewed in person different people might see it more or less pronounced than in that video in my experience (some people I've shown it too couldn't see it at all no matter how hard they tried looking). I'd just call it an aspect of the technology, the same way geometrical warping and convergence issues are part of it too. With the good comes the less good, and even the bad, but I still love CRT's, and nothing can beat them for our classic game consoles.



Yep, you can see how large the aperture grill lines are, it's very close and it's on a test pattern designed to reveal issues. I've happily played hundreds of hours on that TV and don't notice it most of the time. But it's good to have a video, it's otherwise so hard to talk about 'normal' and 'severe' and 'barely noticeable'.

But for instance the older X1 has it far less, and it seems it has a dedicated relay to shut off the degaussing coil, so maybe that's the difference. And then there's the case of the two FX30s where one has absolute none to minimal jitter and the other one with ~10k hours less usage has it medium to high. And of course PVMs and PC CRTs don't have it. Thermistor aging, crystal differences, dedicated relays, I want to find out!


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:02 am 



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I have still not figure out what cause this issue, the weirdest is that is not present on my 29fx30e , and on 21" bx-1 chassis mono but it is present on the 21" BX-1 stereo (wich is basically the same) , it is present on FE-1 chassis but not on my 29" FE-1, just on 21"-25" Models.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:18 pm 



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Leoraider wrote:
I have still not figure out what cause this issue, the weirdest is that is not present on my 29fx30e , and on 21" bx-1 chassis mono but it is present on the 21" BX-1 stereo (wich is basically the same) , it is present on FE-1 chassis but not on my 29" FE-1, just on 21"-25" Models.

It's present on all the 13 inch models that I've tried as well as the few 27 ones I've seen (such as the FV310). Since I've never picked up a TV bigger than that I can't confirm whether it exists on the extra large CRT's, but basically every CRT I've seen had this jitter effect.

ASDR wrote:
Yep, you can see how large the aperture grill lines are, it's very close and it's on a test pattern designed to reveal issues. I've happily played hundreds of hours on that TV and don't notice it most of the time. But it's good to have a video, it's otherwise so hard to talk about 'normal' and 'severe' and 'barely noticeable'.

But for instance the older X1 has it far less, and it seems it has a dedicated relay to shut off the degaussing coil, so maybe that's the difference. And then there's the case of the two FX30s where one has absolute none to minimal jitter and the other one with ~10k hours less usage has it medium to high. And of course PVMs and PC CRTs don't have it. Thermistor aging, crystal differences, dedicated relays, I want to find out!

Actually my PVM/BVM monitors all had it too (including the BVM20G1U (and I had two of them)). I'm just particularly sensitive to it I guess. I remember spending like half an hour trying to show it off on the BVM and my friend who's usually particular about flaws just couldn't see it, but to me when viewed up close the pixels are pulsing around exactly like in your video. There are also times where my eyes must be more tired (or perhaps more relaxed) and I can't spot it much at all (even on the same test patterns), which further reinforces the idea to me that eye sensitivity to it plays a role. I've also been unable to show it off on some consumer models to others because some people seem to be completely unaffected by it and cannot perceive the slight jitter going on. That's why the video you took is pretty great cause it showcases it for those who cannot see it in person.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:17 pm 


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Still haven't made any progress on this, I got distracted by other repair and electronics projects. How is it always that while fixing something another thing breaks, and then one of your cheap Chinese tools breaks and you find some 100 page forum thread on improving it and then two weeks pass and you wonder what you're even doing... Anyways.

Anybody try unplugging the degaussing coil yet? I plan on doing that and doing some measurements, probably starting with an FE-1 chassis TV since they're quite simple and have bad jitter. If that is the issue, I got plenty of ideas on how to fix it. Not terribly optimistic since I noticed this in the BX-1 chassis schematic:

Image

Ohhh, look at this fancy pants late gen TV, it has a dedicated relay for the degaussing coil. It should be completely off.

Leoraider wrote:
I have still not figure out what cause this issue, the weirdest is that is not present on my 29fx30e , and on 21" bx-1 chassis mono but it is present on the 21" BX-1 stereo (wich is basically the same) , it is present on FE-1 chassis but not on my 29" FE-1, just on 21"-25" Models.


Seems like you also got a mythical FX30 that doesn't have it :-) I also have two FQ10s which are BX-1 stereo units that have the bad jitter.

Since I have two FX30s I could just compare everything on them. ESR measure every cap, check all voltages, hook up a scope. There has to be a difference!

Taiyaki wrote:
Actually my PVM/BVM monitors all had it too (including the BVM20G1U (and I had two of them)). I'm just particularly sensitive to it I guess. I remember spending like half an hour trying to show it off on the BVM and my friend who's usually particular about flaws just couldn't see it, but to me when viewed up close the pixels are pulsing around exactly like in your video. There are also times where my eyes must be more tired (or perhaps more relaxed) and I can't spot it much at all (even on the same test patterns), which further reinforces the idea to me that eye sensitivity to it plays a role. I've also been unable to show it off on some consumer models to others because some people seem to be completely unaffected by it and cannot perceive the slight jitter going on. That's why the video you took is pretty great cause it showcases it for those who cannot see it in person.


Nothing more maddening than trying to explain obvious (to you) issues to somebody that just can't spot them! I think one issue is that the jitter is really fast, it seems like it's sub-frame and just jitters back and forth really quick.

My PVM & PC CRTs doesn't seem to have it. I've never seen it on a PC CRT, I think it would be completely maddening when reading text or doing CAD work or whatever up close on a PC screen. If you step the video frame-by-frame you can actually see it's not purely horizontal, it's also sometimes affecting the horizontal lines vertically. So that would seem like it's unlikely to be just sync related.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:43 pm 


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Earlier I mentioned I wanted to show my K7000. This is from GroovyMAME running Ghouls N Ghosts. As promised, this dude is bad to the bone. Not even the most OCD person could find fault here, jitter-wise, as there is literally none, its absolutely rock-solid. No jitter, flicker, jumping, anything, its like staring at a backlit piece of paper. Meanwhile all my other sets, Sony, Hitachi, etc, all exhibit varying amounts of micro jitter when zoomed in. This old monitor has zero digital controls in it. The plot thickens.

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/644961136


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:52 pm 


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Ohh, nice screen! Great footage as well :-)

I'm still in the middle of two other electronics projects and am actually playing some games (crazy!), so I just don't have time atm to investigate further. But I had the opportunity to pick up a fantastic 20" 109Khz Trinitron PC CRT. I tried it out and did some basic calibration, this thing has some fancy-ish convergence adjustments. I thought I get a magnifying glass to make sure I got everything lined up just right, and wouldn't you know, micro jitter! It's basically invisible in normal operation, but it's there...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:09 am 


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I noticed these jitters on my Sony 24FS120 a few year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygbjfyJ8RJI

It's very noticeable with the white text on black background about 34 seconds in. Would love to find a way to eliminate it since the picture is beautiful aside from that.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:21 am 



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I have a 20" BA-6 chassis kv-20fs120 that does this horribly like not normal bad. I dont use it because of this issue. I have tried replacing power caps, and tried unhooking the deguassing wire but none of that did anything. The inside looks fine and I can't find anything visually wrong with anything on the board. It also has a temporary yellow screen when I turn it on then goes black after a couple seconds. weird.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:37 pm 



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I got rid of a couple trinitrons, the micro noise was very noticeable, they are overrated.

Instead I got a bunch of Tau´s with the GL1 chassis, pretty awesome:

https://i.imgur.com/Hi1iJJx.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:52 pm 



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I've been having the same sync issue with almost all of my retrogaming consoles like snes, sega mega drive, super famicom, sega genesis, playstation 1, neo geo AES, the mister FPGA etc. (except the playstation 2 console and a couple more which had a very steady great video signal for some reason).
Gaming consoles were connected to a sony trinitron 21 inches KV-21CL10E using RGB high quality video cables. It was driving my crazy for years and that issue destroyed my retrovideo gaming experience.

All of my video cables purchased from https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/ and they are all good quality PACKAPUNCH shielded video cables.

Take a look here guys and check out what I found: https://www.hdretrovision.com/jitter

If you are plagued with a TV or device that produces visual artifacts due to sync jitter on the rising edge, there are a couple things you can do to alleviate it. The first is to try and use different equipment which utilizes the correct falling edge of sync and doesn't exhibit this visual behavior. Another option is to use an intermediary device in between the YPbPr cable and the TV, such as an A/V receiver or a video processor. We are continually testing affordable converter boxes and video processors and will update our lists on our 240p page with compatible models as they are discovered.


Though, I'm not quite sure if they are talking about the CRT TVs technology or the newer LCD TVs.

I cannot find a way to contact them and ask for additional clarifications on that issue we are experiencing. If anyone could get more information on this by contact them it could be great. They rarely update their website, and it seems like they have vanished from the retrogaming scene. In the last few years they were focused on component video cables which I suppose they are ment to be used on LCDs mostly.

I can access the CRT TV's service menu and I hope tweaking the settings each and every one of us we may find a solution. But the manufacturer's TV's service manual usually describes the service menu functions in summary only, and little we can do about it since the engineers and technicians behind the CRT tvs technology have disappeared from the scene for years.

Maybe a SCART SWITCHER could solve these problems that many TV models have, it would be the device of the year for us retrogaming community. Framemeister would look like crap compared to scart swither.

Guys this video signal sync issue is real, we need to find a solution, for good. I will upload example videos in the coming days, and I'll stay tuned! At the moment I have totally no free time at all, unfortunately.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:04 am 



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jepjepjep wrote:
I noticed these jitters on my Sony 24FS120 a few year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygbjfyJ8RJI

It's very noticeable with the white text on black background about 34 seconds in. Would love to find a way to eliminate it since the picture is beautiful aside from that.

That's a great TV imo, but unfortunately there's no real way to get rid of the jitter exhibited in that video, it's par for the course on every single Sony CRT including pro monitors (although the degree of it will vary depending on the models and the viewer's sensitivity to them).


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:07 am 



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lukilla wrote:
I got rid of a couple trinitrons, the micro noise was very noticeable, they are overrated.

Instead I got a bunch of Tau´s with the GL1 chassis, pretty awesome:

https://i.imgur.com/Hi1iJJx.jpg

I love the TAU's too, Panasonic made incredible CRT's, especially in Europe. Although I wouldn't replace my FV grade Trinitron's for them, Panasonic is my close second favorite brand for consumer CRT's.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:11 am 



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Niro starship wrote:
Maybe a SCART SWITCHER could solve these problems that many TV models have, it would be the device of the year for us retrogaming community. Framemeister would look like crap compared to scart swither.

Guys this video signal sync issue is real, we need to find a solution, for good. I will upload example videos in the coming days, and I'll stay tuned! At the moment I have totally no free time at all, unfortunately.

Would love such a scart switcher that could achieve that too, but I wouldn't hold my breath for someone to make one. I think us enthusiasts here are just very ocd about the image in ways most gamers who pick up CRT's for classic games aren't.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:40 pm 


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Niro starship wrote:
I've been having the same sync issue with almost all of my retrogaming consoles like snes, sega mega drive, super famicom, sega genesis, playstation 1, neo geo AES, the mister FPGA etc. (except the playstation 2 console and a couple more which had a very steady great video signal for some reason).
Gaming consoles were connected to a sony trinitron 21 inches KV-21CL10E using RGB high quality video cables. It was driving my crazy for years and that issue destroyed my retrovideo gaming experience.

All of my video cables purchased from https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/ and they are all good quality PACKAPUNCH shielded video cables.

Take a look here guys and check out what I found: https://www.hdretrovision.com/jitter

If you are plagued with a TV or device that produces visual artifacts due to sync jitter on the rising edge, there are a couple things you can do to alleviate it. The first is to try and use different equipment which utilizes the correct falling edge of sync and doesn't exhibit this visual behavior. Another option is to use an intermediary device in between the YPbPr cable and the TV, such as an A/V receiver or a video processor. We are continually testing affordable converter boxes and video processors and will update our lists on our 240p page with compatible models as they are discovered.


Though, I'm not quite sure if they are talking about the CRT TVs technology or the newer LCD TVs.

I cannot find a way to contact them and ask for additional clarifications on that issue we are experiencing. If anyone could get more information on this by contact them it could be great. They rarely update their website, and it seems like they have vanished from the retrogaming scene. In the last few years they were focused on component video cables which I suppose they are ment to be used on LCDs mostly.

I can access the CRT TV's service menu and I hope tweaking the settings each and every one of us we may find a solution. But the manufacturer's TV's service manual usually describes the service menu functions in summary only, and little we can do about it since the engineers and technicians behind the CRT tvs technology have disappeared from the scene for years.

Maybe a SCART SWITCHER could solve these problems that many TV models have, it would be the device of the year for us retrogaming community. Framemeister would look like crap compared to scart swither.

Guys this video signal sync issue is real, we need to find a solution, for good. I will upload example videos in the coming days, and I'll stay tuned! At the moment I have totally no free time at all, unfortunately.


The HD Retrovision link is an interesting read, but unfortunately has to do with jitter on the source signal rather than jitter that is inherent to a TV or monitor. This Trinitron issue is exactly that, its inherent to the set, not the input signal, and this is easily confirmed by examining the OSD/menu image. I have no scientific evidence, but Im still inclined to believe the issue is caused by noise/interference in the jungle circuitry in most modern sets. What you can see with my K7000 (which lacks jungle/OSD altogether) above is some pretty powerful anecdoctal evidence of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:29 am 



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Posts: 357
Josh128 wrote:
I have no scientific evidence, but Im still inclined to believe the issue is caused by noise/interference in the jungle circuitry in most modern sets. What you can see with my K7000 (which lacks jungle/OSD altogether) above is some pretty powerful anecdoctal evidence of that.


This is 100% correct and I do have the evidence as this problem has been noticed in Italian arcade communities too where it's common practice to replace arcade monitors in bad condition with TVs of the late 90s/early 2000s period under the incorrect assumption that later is better (but also because they're more readily available). A comparison of several TVs of the 1980-90 decade with those of the following decades showed that only the latter group was affected by the jitter issue. As in classic arcade monitors, in 1980s TVs sync separation and H/V oscillation was done by small ICs that only had this specific purpose (common ones in European sets: TDA2579, TDA2593, TDA2595. In Japanese sets: HA11235, HA11423, uPC1377). RGB processing was done by separate ICs (common ones in European sets: TDA3505, TDA3562, TDA4580). This kind of sets are not affected by the jitter issue which only showed up when the older design was replaced by the newer one where the above functions were done by big single chip processors (e.g. TDA8840, STV223X, VDP3130Y). And it's worth noting that later PVMs kept using the older design: for instance the 20M4 still has the uPC1377 like 1980s sets (PVM-1390, KV-1311, KV-25XBR, etc.).


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