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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:38 am 



Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 975
Location: Los Angeles, CA
I have a noob question about the MiSTer.. sorry. Does the FPGA "fill up" depending on your core selections? i.e. I know the space is limited and certain systems more demanding, so let's say you change from playing SNES to the upcoming PSX core. Would this require re-flashing the FPGA each time you change the system to be played?


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:41 am 


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bigbadboaz wrote:
Does the FPGA "fill up" depending on your core selections?

The FPGA only holds one core at a time.

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so let's say you change from playing SNES to the upcoming PSX core. Would this require re-flashing the FPGA each time you change the system to be played?

Every time you select a system in the menu, the core for it is loaded in the FPGA - it's not really "flashing" it though, it is more like loading a program on your PC. This process needs maybe a second or less.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:10 pm 


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Galgomite wrote:
I'm tired of reading Tweats about the cost of getting into MiSTer-- it's the deal of the century.


The value proposition of MiSTer is very personal and subjective. I'd guess the two main considerations are first, if you already own a handful of OG (or alternative, complementary) hardware, would you still bother to play the equivalent games on a MiSTer? And second, what libraries (e.g. cores) are you looking to gain access to, are they properly implemented and what are your other viable alternatives?


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:42 pm 



Joined: 14 Feb 2005
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Thanks, Unseen. I'd thought that reconfiguring an FPGA was more involved that that, given the nature of these chips.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:37 am 



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 194
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
azmun wrote:
Galgomite wrote:
I'm tired of reading Tweats about the cost of getting into MiSTer-- it's the deal of the century.


The value proposition of MiSTer is very personal and subjective. I'd guess the two main considerations are first, if you already own a handful of OG (or alternative, complementary) hardware, would you still bother to play the equivalent games on a MiSTer? And second, what libraries (e.g. cores) are you looking to gain access to, are they properly implemented and what are your other viable alternatives?


As someone who owns nearly all the systems I play on MiSTer, the value I assign is compared to video mods etc that would get me not just the games but a presentation at similar quality. I no longer feel good about modding consoles anyway but a MiSTer is cheaper than an HDMI-modded nes with an Everdrive NT Pro cart. Or a PC Engine with a Terraonion ODE, or a Genesis with a triple bypass and Mega SD.. You really need only want one core to justify the cost.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:47 am 


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azmun wrote:
Galgomite wrote:
I'm tired of reading Tweats about the cost of getting into MiSTer-- it's the deal of the century.


The value proposition of MiSTer is very personal and subjective. I'd guess the two main considerations are first, if you already own a handful of OG (or alternative, complementary) hardware, would you still bother to play the equivalent games on a MiSTer? And second, what libraries (e.g. cores) are you looking to gain access to, are they properly implemented and what are your other viable alternatives?


For me one of the biggest appeals of using a MiSTer or RPi even when owning all the original hardware are the things that would be hard or impossible to get otherwise. First you get save states and rewinds on emulation and to some degree on MiSTer. That's so useful for punishing 8bit titles or just for skipping all the difficulty adjustment, ship selection, intro crap. Then you get to use your favorite controller on all systems. You only have to buy one arcade stick or a single Saturn controller adapter. Then there's autofire and changing the button layout and such conveniences. You also have pristine image quality. RGB/HDMI modding a Famicom or getting rid of the jailbars on my Master System, Mega Drive etc. would be a lot of money / work. And for the extra lazy among us, playing a new game on a different console usually requires grabbing a different controller, adjusting volume on the AV receiver, hitting various SCART/Audio switchers, maybe selecting a different input & profile on the OSSC, etc. Way quicker on any kind of emulation.

The cost of a MiSTer setup is probably less than a single original console + RGB/HDMI mod + fancy SCART cable + ODE/EverDrive + other extras like memory cards, wireless controllers / controller adapters etc.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:27 am 


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Galgomite wrote:
You really need only want one core to justify the cost.


To each their own (original hardware and those with mods are like sunk costs but do have appreciating salvage values). I agree with your last point. Don't really see the point getting MiSTer to play games I already have access to, even in some other manner (be it convenience, quality of life improvements, etc.). On the other hand, I have been on standby for quite some time to gain entry into Neo Geo library, X68k games and perhaps few arcade titles that were never ported or brought to consoles faithfully (e.g. System 16B). Hence, I'm looking to get a consolized MVS but when you consider including the cost of sourcing some flash cart, the sum adds up and obtaining a MiSTer does make much more sense.


Last edited by azmun on Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:48 am 



Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 975
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Another question for the more knowledgeable about this platform:

Suppose the announced Saturn core actually ends up a success (I know many felt PSX was the max realistic target for this FPGA). Would this open any realistic hopes for a Dreamcast core? It's another generational step, but we're also talking about a notorious, complex multiprocessor architecture vs. one intentionally designed to be straightforward, simple and clean. Could the DC logic possibly fit into similar space required by the Saturn design?


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:03 am 


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One benefit of mister is that it has computer cores, as well as console and arcade ones. Stuff like C64, Amiga, and Atari 800.

TG-16 core has some advantages over the SSSD3 with being able to play SGX games (though SSHD3 Pro has this now too) and better CD-ROM compatibility. It also has the nice feature of choosing between the raw RGB and composite colors.

The optional analog output is worth it IMO. Games look real nice in component. One advantage with the MD core is that it has a composite filter than that can be used with RGB or component on a CRT. Games like Twinkle Tale look incredible this way.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:20 am 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 321
Location: The Netherlands
This basically adds a shell and takes care of some I/O ? It's quite baffling that such functionality would result in a 3x (just guessing here) price increase over an already functional fpga board. That's just not right no matter how you turn it.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:46 am 


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bigbadboaz wrote:
Another question for the more knowledgeable about this platform:

Suppose the announced Saturn core actually ends up a success (I know many felt PSX was the max realistic target for this FPGA). Would this open any realistic hopes for a Dreamcast core? It's another generational step, but we're also talking about a notorious, complex multiprocessor architecture vs. one intentionally designed to be straightforward, simple and clean. Could the DC logic possibly fit into similar space required by the Saturn design?


I simply can't imagine because of the GPU. The DC can do 640x480@60FPS with perspective correct, trilinear filtered textures. I can't imagine the FPGA can replicate this and unlike an RPi there's no actual GPU available to maybe outsource the rendering.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:42 am 



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 194
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
bigbadboaz wrote:
Another question for the more knowledgeable about this platform:

Suppose the announced Saturn core actually ends up a success (I know many felt PSX was the max realistic target for this FPGA). Would this open any realistic hopes for a Dreamcast core? It's another generational step, but we're also talking about a notorious, complex multiprocessor architecture vs. one intentionally designed to be straightforward, simple and clean. Could the DC logic possibly fit into similar space required by the Saturn design?


When people like SmokeMonster suggested that PSX/ Saturn were at the theoretical limits of MiSTer, no one thought those cores would actually happen. So who knows? I don't think DC is likely on the current hardware. But honestly, as we move further from classic 2D platforms, the benefits of MiSTer for players-- like precise input lag and scaling-- are less pronounced. I'd even say the tables are turned in favor of traditional PC-style emulation for many players, as 3D graphics upscale nicely and multi-frame lag is anticipated.

But MiSTer will likely survive beyond its current incarnation and its only limits will be human.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:45 am 


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azmun wrote:
Galgomite wrote:
You really need only want one core to justify the cost.


To each their own (original hardware and those with mods are sunk costs but do have appreciating salvage values). I agree with your last point. Don't really see the point getting MiSTer to play games I already have access to, even in some other manner (be it convenience, quality of life improvements, etc.). On the other hand, I have been on standby for quite some time to gain entry into Neo Geo library, X68k games and perhaps few arcade titles that were never ported or brought to consoles faithfully (e.g. System 16B). Hence, I'm looking to get a consolized MVS but when you consider including the cost of sourcing some flash cart, the sum adds up and obtaining a MiSTer does make much more sense.


I bought a MiSTer to play Dodonpachi and 1941. I never could afford a DDP PCB, and although I do have a 1941 board it's been broken for years and trying to maintain CPS1 PCBs is a losing battle.

But, I've found the thing is so good that I've started just using it for SNES, NES, Genesis, and PCE games even though I have all those consoles + flash carts already. It's just so convenient having everything in one place and I usually can't tell the difference from real hardware. Also, the Neo-Geo core is basically perfect and I'm rediscovering lots of Amiga and DOS games. It's one of the best gaming investments I've ever made.

TLDR, the MiSTer is totally worth it and you'll see once you try it.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:26 pm 


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matt wrote:
But, I've found the thing is so good that I've started just using it for SNES, NES, Genesis, and PCE games even though I have all those consoles + flash carts already.


As sad as it sounds, despite also having all of this as original hardware I even found myself using an RPi + PI2SCART over original hardware quite frequently. It's just so nice to play a SNES shmup with a Saturn controller. Or to have turbo fire in a Neo Geo game. Or no jailbars on my MD. Or save states on PCE. Or RGB on a Famicom. Or not having to deal with 32X hardware. MiSTer just makes this decision even easier as you don't even have the 'comfort' vs authenticity/lag tradeoff you have with a Pi.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:06 pm 



Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Posts: 439
It's too bad that Groovymame is still either, so unknown or so intimidating. Cause it really is an alternative to original hardware like Mister is, and unlike RPi. Moreover, if Groovy were more outspread, maybe the only guy making accurate arcade cores for Mister wouldn't be emulating the games with already good (if not perfect) emulation in Groovymame as the people would prefer him to dedicate his expertise to things you can't properly use Mame for and likely never will.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:54 am 


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Groovymame is awesome but if you're going to use it with CRT emudriver and high runahead for the best experience you pretty much need a dedicated PC and a fast one too. That's going to cost you a lot more than a Mister. (without CRT emu you only need a fast PC which you might have anyway).

Still, GM still supports way more games than Mister at this point, plus you can use the same PC to run other emulators, PC retro remakes etc etc.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:26 am 



Joined: 12 Mar 2019
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BuckoA51 wrote:
Groovymame is awesome but if you're going to use it with CRT emudriver and high runahead for the best experience you pretty much need a dedicated PC and a fast one too. That's going to cost you a lot more than a Mister. (without CRT emu you only need a fast PC which you might have anyway).

Still, GM still supports way more games than Mister at this point, plus you can use the same PC to run other emulators, PC retro remakes etc etc.


Yeah, right. Not sure it'd really cost a lot more even for CRT emudriver or that it needs something very fast. Usually the more demanding drivers are the ones you aren't getting good emulation anyway, so you'll normally skip their games. But frame delay needs something not too old indeed, it'll depend on what you want to play. Runahead crap is fortunately out of Groovy's kingdom, but I know you meant frame delay.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:34 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 690
People usually compare Mister to original hardware when talking about value propositions, but I think for a lot of people, comparing it to PC emulation, which is free, is more appropriate. Then the question is if the sort of authenticity, possibly lower lag, and possibly better accuracy is worth several hundred dollars and for those people... Not sure it is.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:32 pm 



Joined: 12 Mar 2019
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There are people for everything these days, but you must contemplate this forum's context. But my point and BuckoA51's point is that "PC emulation" has more than one meaning. You can essentially achieve Mister's lag and "authenticity" with a good Groovymame setup. That likely won't be "free".


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:02 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
People usually compare Mister to original hardware when talking about value propositions, but I think for a lot of people, comparing it to PC emulation, which is free, is more appropriate. Then the question is if the sort of authenticity, possibly lower lag, and possibly better accuracy is worth several hundred dollars and for those people... Not sure it is.


I think it's really questionable if an FPGA is necessarily strictly superior to quality software emulation. With runahead and a low-level display stack + VRR display, it should be possible to get same or even lower latency as original hardware. And people often act like FPGA cores are these perfect transistor-by-transistor replications of the original chip while they're almost exclusively more of a high-level recreation. And there software and FPGA share the same principle weakness: The skill of the developer to correctly reverse engineer the hardware and then to correctly reimplement it. I don't think the MiSTer FPGA core is obviously more accurate than something like higan/bsnes that has a crazy amount of development and testing hours invested in it.

But many will prefer a stand-alone device like a MiSTer for the same reasons they prefer console gaming over PC gaming. A stand-alone, purpose-build, dedicated box. No worrying that an NVIDIA driver update or going to Windows 11 will mess anything up.

Everything's a trade-off.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:58 pm 


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The problem with runahead is that the appropriate amount varies from game to game, emulators don't have a database of which games need which amount of runahead, and there are some very small number of games for which even one frame of runahead is too much.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:13 pm 


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We do love "free". Interesting subject, that is.

Arrrrgh, matey! Yo ho! Yo ho! No physical media required! Parlay! Downloadz da barrel of romz booty! If it's old, it's free! Because, that's convenient for me! If someone breaks the emulator copyleft, ya walks the plank, becauz we follows the code when it's not the romz. Gamez is the entire point, but intellectual properteez only matterz when it's our codez. Yo ho! Yo ho! Arrrrrrgh!
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:20 pm 



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 8000
How does the Irken Labs Jamma Expander fare with a MISTer setup? It seems to be one of the more elegant 3rd-party produced jamma adapters made for it (aside from the sold out preorder Mister Addon jamma adapter for MISTer).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:20 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
The problem with runahead is that the appropriate amount varies from game to game, emulators don't have a database of which games need which amount of runahead, and there are some very small number of games for which even one frame of runahead is too much.


True. Generally, setting up my Pi was a ton of work since I pretty much had to configure things lag vs CPU load on a per-system basis and then finally on a per-game basis for arcade. Speaking of no database, I'm pretty surprised nobody has made that a thing yet. Guess the best we have are some things like Shmuparch with a set of pre-configured titles.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:01 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 841
I'm just waiting on a proper frontend for the MiSTer similar to EmulationStation for the Pi. I really hate controlling everything with a keyboard and through that UI.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:40 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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ldeveraux wrote:
I'm just waiting on a proper frontend for the MiSTer similar to EmulationStation for the Pi. I really hate controlling everything with a keyboard and through that UI.


You can control everything with a game pad.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:52 pm 


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ldeveraux wrote:
I'm just waiting on a proper frontend for the MiSTer similar to EmulationStation for the Pi. I really hate controlling everything with a keyboard and through that UI.


Like one you can control from your phone that shows game metadata?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr5tvTTU7gY&


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:16 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
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fernan1234 wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
I'm just waiting on a proper frontend for the MiSTer similar to EmulationStation for the Pi. I really hate controlling everything with a keyboard and through that UI.


You can control everything with a game pad.
Ah i guess i haven't recently checked. But still, it's not the prettiest. I understand the mister is more for enthusiasts, but porting ES would be really sweet. That's probably a ton of work though.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:06 pm 



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 300
I preordered one. I didn't own a MiSTer before and decided with this it was time to get one.
But the bundle ones were already gone when I went to the page to buy mine. So I bought the PCB, case with scart-rgb in back and the power supply.
Went and bought the DE-10 Nano for 1525 SEK and a 1TB micro sdxc.
I think the standard sandwich MiSTER is nice, but I dont like having thousand cables coming out of all sides of the unit.
If the MiSTER works nice enough and simulates the systems well enough, I will sell off all my other consoles probably, or remove them from the setup atleast to free up space.

I did not like that they did not include wifi out of the box. Which means I will have to figure out what usb wifi dongle to get. (Please help!)

I might sell it in the future if I can get my hands on the Analogue Pocket AND if the Analogue OS gets as much support as the MiSTer does. But those are two big IFS :)
I am looking forwards to get the Analogue DUO but I already have the UperGrafX, SSDS3 & SSSD3 Pro to use on my SuperGrafX :P Will sell two of those as the latest product makes all other redundant.

I wish I knew about the XTREME-MISTER FPGA before preordering, then I might not have preordered as easily. But it's still got the same problems as the normal MiSTER, a cables coming out of all sides. I want front and back only.

Regarding controllers: https://rpubs.com/misteraddons/inputlatency
What does SNAC Snes controller have in input latency compared to an usb controller like "bootsector - RetroPad32" ?


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:38 pm 


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Elrinth wrote:
I did not like that they did not include wifi out of the box. Which means I will have to figure out what usb wifi dongle to get. (Please help!)

I bought a "TP-Link Archer T2U Nano AC600 Nano Wireless USB Adapter" on Amazon.
Saw it recommended somewhere, and it worked right away after doing the Wifi configuration.
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