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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:28 pm 


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Woozle wrote:
VEGETA wrote:
anexanhume wrote:
Sounding good. Going to be a hard choice between this and the Morph.


well, for me I didn't see anything about the morph till now. no pictures no updates. but you are right both of them are similar in terms of specs and features. most people will see them the same but only few people will know which to choose, depending on little details and very niche features of each one.

However, both of them will be pricey and I doubt they will be sold for less than 600$. I bet 500$ or a bit more is considered fantastic nowadays.

More details on the Morph will be available in the next few months, but for now know that it will have all the great features of the N64Digital shown on our twitter and more.

Scaler performance https://twitter.com/PixelFXco/status/1441075892332253186?s=20
Retro FX https://twitter.com/PixelFXco/status/1440766904138756098?s=20

The Morph will be priced at $400 or less.


Thanks Woozle! Very helpful information.

Orange808 wrote:

I'm looking forward to real 4:4:4, tate mode, and compatibility with odd signals from these processors.


This is what I'm particularly curious about as well.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:26 pm 


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VEGETA wrote:
orange808 wrote:
VEGETA wrote:
seems nice but most consoles use YCBCR inside and sometimes not 444. but still if you process any input at 444 is always better and more safe.


You crack me up, little buddy. ;-)

Of course, chroma subsampling actually makes a huge difference with graphics and most retro gaming. If I recall correctly, the 3do offered compression options and it may have been the first machine to support it. Although, it's not really 4:2:2 compression and chroma subsampling will still be destructive.


meaning what exactly?

I know that 444 is always best but my point is that game consoles may not have native rgb 444 output to begin with. some of them have ycbcr and I don't have enough info on sampling of internal retro consoles. therefore, maybe not guaranteed to be all rgb 444. I know PS2 graphics chip outputs digital rgb as its native original format, but don't know about the others.

notable examples to my knowledge (check yourself):

SEGA Dreamcast: uses ITU-R BT.656 which is 8-bits of video, color space is YCbCr and sampling is 4:2:2. I am not 100% sure but the schematic does show only 8-bits of digital video from the gpu. PS2 for example shows 8 digital bits per color channel, PS1 is the same. this is why it is always easier to work with PS1/PS2 digital to analog video conversion or even to pure digital HDMI.

Gamecube: uses ITU-R BT.656 for sure, or at least near identical protocol. and yes, it is 422.

my recommendation is to use 444 always as long as it doesn't affect performance. However, i want people to stop obsessing about it all that much. they make it look like if you don't do 444 then your quality is very bad.

for me, I'd like to know if upsampling delivers noticeable results. technical posts from people who tried this will help


"Meaning" exactly what I said. :-)

Try upscaling a SNES on a DVDO vp50pro. It plugs directly in and the machine recognizes 240p, but the results are... not great. Same thing with most PCBs. Also true with DOS and Win95 PC games. Also true with Amiga. Also true with PCE/TG16, MD/Genny, NES/Famicom, C64, NeoGeo, and 3DO. The DVDO will gladly upscale with no line doubler in the chain, but the output isn't very good.

Chroma subsampling from my DVDOs is one reason I keep a line doubler around. Not the only reason, mind you, but it's an important part of my motivation.

I never worked with the GCN, so I'm not familiar with how assets are handled or mastered. I wasn't referencing the PS2/Xbox/GCN console era, anyhow.

Need screenshots? Look here: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:24 am 


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I know this page you linked but it is too long. I found this to be interesting: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/FZ_24 ... ARISON.png

it references chroma upsampling error of 1 pixel.

You mentioned DVDO and its capability to upscale but this wasn't my point, I don't use or have one to begin with. or maybe I understood your words wrongly.

the way I understand it is that if the console's native output itself is 422 YCbCr, then going full RGB 444 might not do much compared to if the native is RGB 444. Now, how much difference and how much does the upsampling error\benefit is...? I don't know, maybe someone who tried these can tell.

^ an example on this would be if you go for analog RGB output from native analog RGB output vs if your native output is analog YPbPr then you convert it to analog RGB. first signal is always going to be better, while the 2nd signal you are better off just using the analog YPbPr directly. << not best example but kinda the same concept of native format.

If you think I misunderstood you or something, please explain more. I really want to learn the truth, not insisting on any opinion. :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:55 am 


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VEGETA wrote:
SEGA Dreamcast: uses ITU-R BT.656 which is 8-bits of video

Wrong

Quote:
but the schematic does show only 8-bits of digital video from the gpu

Look again, it's 12 bits running at twice the pixel clock.

Quote:
Gamecube: uses ITU-R BT.656 for sure, or at least near identical protocol. and yes, it is 422.

Although it sure is inspired by BT.656, it is not directly compatible. Surprisingly, your guess about 4:2:2 is correct though. As far as I know the Gamecube and its descendants are the only consoles that take it as far as always using a 4:2:2 frame buffer internally.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:01 am 


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Quote:
I know this page you linked but it is too long. I found this to be interesting: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/FZ_24 ... ARISON.png

mind that Mike has reworked the chroma handling on the 5X since, so results on the current firmware are much better.

Biggest chroma handling flaw on the DVDOs is, that the actual input always gets converted to 4:2:2 first before any processing is done. This massively hurts low-res inputs signals. Applying 4:2:2 processing to HD signals isn't this much of a deal.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:29 am 


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Quote:
Look again, it's 12 bits running at twice the pixel clock.


yeah you are correct, I saw the 12 bits on the schematic last month but kinda mixed it up with 8 bit consoles. sorry for this mistake.

Quote:
Although it sure is inspired by BT.656, it is not directly compatible. Surprisingly, your guess about 4:2:2 is correct though. As far as I know the Gamecube and its descendants are the only consoles that take it as far as always using a 4:2:2 frame buffer internally.


yes, similar to bt 656 and 422. I don't know if it affects quality or not, didn't try to compare.

Quote:
Biggest chroma handling flaw on the DVDOs is, that the actual input always gets converted to 4:2:2 first before any processing is done. This massively hurts low-res inputs signals. Applying 4:2:2 processing to HD signals isn't this much of a deal.


is the bad quality results from mishandling the 422 or just the conversion to 422 itself causes it? I mean, can't it be converted to 422 and dealt with correctly to produce error free results?

maybe some ICs require conversion to 422 to do some functions, so it is not always in the hand of the designer to choose 444. is this the case of the 5x?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:29 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
From what I gather, the OSSC Pro will use some Intel IP and the Morph relies on Xilinx IP. Should be interesting to see how they match up after release. I'm looking forward to real 4:4:4, tate mode, and compatibility with odd signals from these processors. I game with a lot of sources--including pre-NES consoles, computers, and arcade PCB's. In theory, the Morph might attract more than just gamers; I understand the Xilinx video processing IP cores are quite robust, but implementing all of it might not be possible. I want both machines. :-)
Note that Intel video IP is supposed to be a temporary solution while long-term plan is to replace it with custom implementation. Ideally that would be done before launch, but things have not gone as planned and I've not had enough time or resources to focus on that. The good thing about the Intel IP is that it's modular (unlike some others I've seen) and scalable (1-8 pixels in parallel). The former property enables replacing things by one module at a time as long as they use the same communication protocol. For example, the first module to custom-design would be frame buffer in order to enable rotation, screenshots and lower latency. Another thing to note is that pre-and post processing are still done by custom FPGA logic so odd signals should not be an issue. The IP also supports 4:4:4 and is configured for it.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:56 pm 


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Quote:
marqs


I see you mounted the LCD in a good way on the side... can you kindly mention how did you do it in a way to be very precise in 3D model via KiCAD + to be fully suitable with the enclosure?

heatsinks seem kinda small, are they really necessary for this design? I assume they are press fit. can you mention what price they are at and the part number of mounting liquid\material? this was a question for a previous little project of mine.

design wise, is it better to use right angle push buttons or making a custom board like yours? not just the price point of view but also how to mount it to be perfectly aligned with everything else especially the enclosure.

Edit: I don't see SPDIF master clock, shouldn't this product support SPDIF? please clarify

I hope this project sees the light soon, retro gaming scene is heating up.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:36 pm 


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VEGETA wrote:
I see you mounted the LCD in a good way on the side... can you kindly mention how did you do it in a way to be very precise in 3D model via KiCAD + to be fully suitable with the enclosure?
The character OLED is mounted via pin header and right-angle socket. Easy to install and replace if ever necessary. Case will have a transparent plastic visor in front of IR transmitter, display and LED module so their positions have some tolerance.
VEGETA wrote:
heatsinks seem kinda small, are they really necessary for this design? I assume they are press fit. can you mention what price they are at and the part number of mounting liquid\material? this was a question for a previous little project of mine.
FPGA heatsink put on most prototypes is just a placeholder. Production boards will have ATS-52230B-C1-R0 or similar.
VEGETA wrote:
design wise, is it better to use right angle push buttons or making a custom board like yours? not just the price point of view but also how to mount it to be perfectly aligned with everything else especially the enclosure.
The button panel board also contains a 5-way navigation switch. Haven't seen right-angle versions of those.
VEGETA wrote:
Edit: I don't see SPDIF master clock, shouldn't this product support SPDIF? please clarify
You only need audio master clock for SPDIF encoding, and that can be generated from I2S bit clock. Encoding is required only for expansion card toslink output since HDMI TX chip can receive and convert both I2S and SPDIF to HDMI audio sample packets.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:11 pm 


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Quote:
The character OLED is mounted via pin header and right-angle socket. Easy to install and replace if ever necessary. Case will have a transparent plastic visor in front of IR transmitter, display and LED module so their positions have some tolerance.


then i guess you added the pin header in kicad then loaded the lcd 3d model... then manipulated the orientation to make it like you want. right?

Quote:
FPGA heatsink put on most prototypes is just a placeholder. Production boards will have ATS-52230B-C1-R0 or similar.


5-7$ heatsink is not cheap but is it really necessary to have a heatsink? can't you cut Aluminum rods and press-fit them? I don't know that much about heatsinks to be honest.

Quote:
The button panel board also contains a 5-way navigation switch. Haven't seen right-angle versions of those.


yes, all of them are normal orientation. so you will make it move from one menu to next\previous menu while also up or down. you could use 4 simple tactile switches instead but this one is nicer.

Quote:
You only need audio master clock for SPDIF encoding, and that can be generated from I2S bit clock. Encoding is required only for expansion card toslink output since HDMI TX chip can receive and convert both I2S and SPDIF to HDMI audio sample packets.


the way I understand it is that HDMI RX ICs which supports SPDIF and I2S will have MCLK\SPDIF pins for SPDIF + WS\CLK\DOUT for I2S. therefore, HDMI RX IC can deliver master clock for SPDIF by itself.

but what if you have an external SPDIF connector which is the case for you, then you won't be taking this clock from anywhere like HDMI RX IC or audio digitizer chip like PCM1860/1863. what ICs or approach for external SPDIF is required for this in your knowledge? if it is like 24MHZ or so, maybe a good MCU can generate it, right?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:49 am 



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WobblingPixels wrote:

So would I be right in seeing the OSSC Pro defaults to 60.000 fps output by default in that video? Any reason for this vs the NTSC-correct 59.94? Other than the too-fast NES/SNES at ~60.098 hz (and GC/Wii in progressive at almost exactly 60.00?), every other game console is much closer to 59.94, near as I can tell, and had NTSC's "1001" 59.94 as a design target. Any PC monitor made in the last like 15+ years should handle it OK too.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:01 am 


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VEGETA wrote:
Quote:
The character OLED is mounted via pin header and right-angle socket. Easy to install and replace if ever necessary. Case will have a transparent plastic visor in front of IR transmitter, display and LED module so their positions have some tolerance.


then i guess you added the pin header in kicad then loaded the lcd 3d model... then manipulated the orientation to make it like you want. right?
You're referring to the concept picture on first page? Yes, it is possible to use multiple 3D models for a single part and change their orientation in Kicad.

VEGETA wrote:
the way I understand it is that HDMI RX ICs which supports SPDIF and I2S will have MCLK\SPDIF pins for SPDIF + WS\CLK\DOUT for I2S. therefore, HDMI RX IC can deliver master clock for SPDIF by itself.
There is no reason to make HDMI RX output SPDIF unless source uses compressed bitstream audio such as DD5.1 or DTS. In that case the signal is just passed to HDMI TX (and toslink out on expansion card when applicable). With toslink input SPDIF stream can be likewise passed to these outputs. Encoding/decoding L-PCM audio to/from SPDIF only comes into the picture when using the expansion card which is still work in progress. In general SPDIF encoding requires master clock (from I2S bit clock as noted earlier) while decoding needs to perform clock recovery.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:43 pm 


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Quote:
There is no reason to make HDMI RX output SPDIF unless source uses compressed bitstream audio such as DD5.1 or DTS. In that case the signal is just passed to HDMI TX (and toslink out on expansion card when applicable). With toslink input SPDIF stream can be likewise passed to these outputs. Encoding/decoding L-PCM audio to/from SPDIF only comes into the picture when using the expansion card which is still work in progress. In general SPDIF encoding requires master clock (from I2S bit clock as noted earlier) while decoding needs to perform clock recovery.


I meant the SPDIF independent connector itself. I guess it takes optical audio and converts it to digital signal which complies with SPDIF protocol right?

this direct connection between this TOSLINK SPDIF to say the HDMI TX at "SPDIF" pin, is it enough or you should have a master clock?

another question I have is when you may have different I2S signals from say PCM1860\1863 which all use the same clock... but this clock is irrelevant to the external SPDIF. also, if you have another I2S audio source from another PCM chip or from HDMI RX... I think you can't share the same I2S CLK signal for both right? like, you can't connect I2S CLK, WS, and DOUT from PCM1863 to the HDMI TX... then get the I2S DOUT from the HDMI RX and feed it into HDMI TX while using WS and CLK from PCM. I guess this is wrong, correct?

if so, then one might want to use something like TMUX1308 (one for CLK, one for WS, and one for I2S). what is your opinion on this?

btw, how much does one enclosure cost as a total figure after silkscreen? injection molding is expensive.

thanks for your efforts!
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:08 pm 


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VEGETA wrote:
this direct connection between this TOSLINK SPDIF to say the HDMI TX at "SPDIF" pin, is it enough or you should have a master clock?
It is enough.
VEGETA wrote:
... then get the I2S DOUT from the HDMI RX and feed it into HDMI TX while using WS and CLK from PCM. I guess this is wrong, correct?
All I2S sources are fed to FPGA which can do muxing.
energizerfellow‌ wrote:
So would I be right in seeing the OSSC Pro defaults to 60.000 fps output by default in that video? Any reason for this vs the NTSC-correct 59.94? Other than the too-fast NES/SNES at ~60.098 hz (and GC/Wii in progressive at almost exactly 60.00?), every other game console is much closer to 59.94, near as I can tell, and had NTSC's "1001" 59.94 as a design target. Any PC monitor made in the last like 15+ years should handle it OK too.
With framelock Off (60Hz) output refresh rate is set to 59.94/60Hz depending on mode preset. Users should be able to customize the rate once a fully featured PLL driver has been developed.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:21 am 


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So when we take input spdif signal from the toslink spdif connector, it is already in the spdif encoding and doesn't need a clock to help encode it right? therefore, we just pass the digital spdif signal to any IC like HDMI TX and it should work without a clock.

so to my understanding, clock is needed when you want to encode spdif to analog or I2S, or something similar.. which is not the case here.

as for the lcd mounting, I want to use the regular 16x2 lcd module which has pins on top. about 36mm of height, which is kinda big for any right angle connector. can you kindly post a close picture of how you did yours? i assume the pro version uses a display which has pins on top too. last night i searched for female and male pins and sockets but couldn't find suitable ones for the height.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:39 pm 



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Hi Marqs

Is the SPDIF input only?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:11 pm 


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Hao wrote:
Is the SPDIF input only?
The connector on base PCB is input. SPDIF output (toslink) exists on an expansion card with extra AV outputs.
VEGETA wrote:
last night i searched for female and male pins and sockets but couldn't find suitable ones for the height.
A socket like this is soldered on the display and it is mounted on a pin header of suitable height.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:56 am 


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As for this LCD here, its distance from pins to the bottom of PCB is about 33.5mm. I guess it can be done by using a relatively long male pin. but maybe to make it easier I can make a cut in the board to allow lcd pcb to fit without the need to be flush with the board itself.
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