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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:15 pm 


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I hate SOE as well, but it's very different interpolating 24 or 30 fps to 60 than interpolating 60 to 120. 60 fps is already smooth to the human eye, while 24 and 30 are not. So the SOE we all hate is jarring and looks very unnatural, but this 60 to 120? I bet it could look great for retrogames, most of which are 60 fps.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:26 am 


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1440p tate, is there a way to increase the size of the picture to fill up more of the display? Aspect ratio set to 4:3, I know there will be some black area but the picture is all the way to the left with lots of black area top, down, and right.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:09 am 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
Posts: 203
Location: Germany
Josh128 wrote:
SuperSpongo wrote:
The current 768p mode works perfectly for 1024x768 anamorphic pixel plasmas. I posted some pics earlier in this thread somewhere. :wink:


Ah, that's good to know! Although this plasma is true 4:3 aspect ratio. I think it's a Hitachi..

https://www.theblock.art/wp-content/upl ... /HIT37.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:08 pm 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
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So his 5x came in today and just as I feared he now gets a horizontally squished picture with black bars one the left and right side :( I asked him to take a picture and I'll try to bother Mike via Twitter.

Basically, it's similar to 5x output on the OSSC: you can choose 1080p, 1920x1200 or 1600x1200.

A workaround solution would be if the retrotink supported stretching the image to 16:9. Does anybody with one know if it supports this otherwise frowned-upon feature? :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:13 pm 


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SuperSpongo wrote:
A workaround solution would be if the retrotink supported stretching the image to 16:9. Does anybody with one know if it supports this otherwise frowned-upon feature? :mrgreen:


What about the "H.Sampling" -> "16:9 Widescreen" option?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:37 pm 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
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Wouldn't that affect the input though?
But I see what you're saying, maybe if you configure it to look for a widescreen signal in the active area, it'll automatically output in 16:9. That's worth a shot, thanks!

EDIT yeah, that really should work if I think about it! That's the exact feature you'd have to use for anamorphic widescreen such as the Wii in 16:9 or games like Nights from the Saturn.

EDIT2 so I just checked Bob's video again and he said that the 480p output mode is the one that should be used in this case as it outputs 1440x480. My buddy actually said that this mode fills the screen, but it's less than ideal.
He also mentions that 720p and 768p modes don't support the custom sampling modes of the 1080p mode. Oh boy..


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:42 pm 


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What are the best settings for viewing a 240p vertical rgb signal to a 4k vertical lcd monitor while keeping 4:3 aspect ratio?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:52 pm 


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SuperSpongo wrote:
Wouldn't that affect the input though?
But I see what you're saying, maybe if you configure it to look for a widescreen signal in the active area, it'll automatically output in 16:9. That's worth a shot, thanks!

EDIT yeah, that really should work if I think about it! That's the exact feature you'd have to use for anamorphic widescreen such as the Wii in 16:9 or games like Nights from the Saturn.

EDIT2 so I just checked Bob's video again and he said that the 480p output mode is the one that should be used in this case as it outputs 1440x480. My buddy actually said that this mode fills the screen, but it's less than ideal.
He also mentions that 720p and 768p modes don't support the custom sampling modes of the 1080p mode. Oh boy..



Spongo, the brochure you posted shows the display is capable of two output modes for each resolution: Full and Normal. Did he try both when in 768p mode?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:19 am 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
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https://ibb.co/r6xGM0m
https://ibb.co/VSBqsFj
https://ibb.co/mNd7Pqg
https://ibb.co/JKzbdVg

He sent me a couple of pics.
480p works without borders, but at the cost of non-integer scaling by the monitor itself.

The other pictures show generic 4:3 setting, generic 16:9 setting and a bonus pic where he fiddled with the monitor's settings.

Generic 16:9 shows an even black border all around which makes sense. This setting also allows scanlines to be properly displayed as the monitor doesn't do any scaling.

Overall an expected result. But good to see that it's possible.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:11 am 


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So the last few pics are the 768p? The black borders on the top and bottom make sense as 240p doesnt scale evenly to 768p and is a necessary evil for integer scaling.

Thats a really cool set. But wow how the technology advanced! The final 768p model Samsung made, the 51 incher, is only 39 lbs and 2 inches thick, while this Hitachi is listed at 66 lbs and 4 inches thick.

I love my plasmas, Ive had so many compliments on my sets, from non-AV people no less. For 720p systems like WiiU, X360, and PS3, Im convinced that the Samsung 768p sets produce the most perfect picture you can get. SM3D Land on WiiU is just absolutely stunning on them. I wish they could have continued production, but I guess the tech will eventually be lost forever. :(


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:08 pm 


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Trying to figure out why I'm getting a 1" black border, 240p signal from supergun, rt5x in 1440p mode, H. Generic 4:3.

Blue test image from the rt5x shows the image correctly filling up the screen.

Dell lcd set to 4:3

Image


Last edited by digitron on Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:42 am 


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Perhaps it's the resolutions of the game you're playing? A lot of games only use e.g. 224 pixels of the vertical res so the game is letterboxed in 240p.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:31 pm 


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Kez wrote:
Perhaps it's the resolutions of the game you're playing? A lot of games only use e.g. 224 pixels of the vertical res so the game is letterboxed in 240p.


Ahh ok, that makes sense, thanks for the reply :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:23 pm 


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Hey all, question regarding the RT5X's sampling of DTV 480p (858px/line) content.

I've been testing various sources (Dreamcast, Gamecube, Wii) that output a 640x480 image within a 858-pixel signal, and in all cases I'm seeing black borders on the left and right sides of the image. The black borders are widest when sampling mode is set to 858px on the RT5X, though they're still present using Generic 16:9 sampling mode, not as wide but still there. Same behavior regardless of output resolution, though I'm most interested in the 1440p output specifically. I'm on latest firmware (v1.84 as of this writing).

My impression is that the RT5X is using a horizontal active area sampling width of around 720 pixels in 858-px mode and around 680-700 in Generic 16:9 mode. Is there any way to force it to sample only 640 active pixels?

FWIW, I also separately tried putting the OSSC between my console and the RT5X in an effort to stretch the signal's active area to fill the wider width that the RT5X sees. Adjusting the OSSC's H.active, H.porch and H.samprate parameters did move and stretch the image, however the stretched+repositioned image got clipped behind the black borders almost as if the black borders were some kind of mask overlay


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:56 pm 



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Posts: 690
Just came here to ask about that with Xbox. I have it set to output only in 4:3 and on the menu (which only outputs in 480i on my console) it looks fine, but once it gets into a 480p game, it's super skinny. The only options for sampling are DTV and generic 16:9, neither of which really seem to be correct but 16:9 is certainly much more playable and closer to what I'd expect for 4:3. Something does not seem right with Xbox and RT5x (or maybe 480p generally given the above post).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:02 pm 



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Posts: 245
The RT5X samples 720 active pixels and projects that into a 4:3 window, per the CEA-861 standard with a pixel aspect ratio of 10/11. For the games that incorrectly used square pixels (which causes them to look skinny), the 1080p (under) mode should stretch it back out, while maintaining optimal sampling/auto-phase.

In general, this entire area is a mess due to inconsistent practices across consoles and developers, so my default position has been to display it "like a CRT" (which is exactly what the 4:3 mode does).

I'm a bit surprised to hear about Xbox, though. From my (limited) experience, Xbox games did it correctly. It was just DC and a mix and match of titles on other consoles that used square pixels when it should've been 10/11.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:06 pm 



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Posts: 690
Here is what I get with Xbox: https://imgur.com/a/aTOP2VC. I'm outputting at 1440p because it's hooked up to a 1440p monitor. The monitor is set to dot-by-dot, so no additional scaling is done beyond what the RT5x is putting out. The first picture is the Xbox menu, which outputs at 480i on my system, and uses the Generic 4:3 sampling mode. The next picture is what happens when I boot into a 480p game and leave it on the default DTV setting. As you can see, it is incredibly skinny. Finally, the last picture is with the sampling mode set to Generic 16:9 since that's the only other one I'm able to choose. In this case, it actually looks pretty similar to the Generic 4:3 mode in the menu, so I have to wonder what would happen if I set the console to output 16:9 for games that support it. Would they be squished to 4:3? Hmmm... In any case, despite the name, the 16:9 setting seems to be more correct in this case even though there is a noticeable loss of sharpness. I'm using a component cable that I hacked together from a 360 cable.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:12 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 245
You need to set the *monitor* aspect to 16:9 while keeping the RT5X in DTV 858. This gets you pixel perfect, optimally sampled 480p in a 4:3 display. We should thank Fudoh for the clever trick.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:47 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 690
Out of curiosity, why? Everything else (well, my 240p and 480i systems) works fine in dot-by-dot. Just seems like a hacky workaround. I'm generally perfectly content to use the generic sampling rather than optimal settings, but that just doesn't really seem to be an option for 480p, at least on Xbox. For me, a lot of the reason to get the RT5x over the OSSC was the set it and forget it mindset of not having to juggle a bunch of settings just to get things to work right. Shoot, I have all my consoles set to 4:3 even if they support 16:9 just so I don't have to change the sampling mode. Having to adjust my monitor's settings for one or two specific consoles is... not ideal for me. Not that I don't appreciate the device or all the work you've put into it, I'd just really like a better way.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:52 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 245
This is just because of how the math works out for optimal sampling. The other option would be to project the optimal grid 3x, would would result in complaints of it being "too fat' for everything but DC. Or I could turn off optimal sampling in which case, now the complaint would be "too blurry". Hopefully it goes without saying that if there was a "better" way, it would have been done.

Alternatively, as you are running in 1440p, just set the H. sampling to 16:9 (which in this mode is code for fill the entire width) and you never need to change anything if you're okay running everything in Generic and you feel that this is too much hassle.

FYI - the HDMI flags embedded in the stream instruct your TV to go into the appropriate aspect ratio, but they are ignored by most displays.


Last edited by mikechi2 on Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:02 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
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I mean, I wouldn't be complaining about those. I don't use optimal settings for anything else, just seems that 480p content is forced to even though, from what I can tell from my experience and awe444's testing, that seems to be incorrect much of the time.

As you said, since I'm using a monitor, it's probably ignoring those flags, so for me, I just really don't want to have to change settings for things, especially trying to remember that for 4:3 content I need to select 16:9. Really counterintuitive. I will probably end up just using 480i since that seems to display correctly.

Anyway, thank you for responding. I know you know way more about all the technical stuff than I do, so I just hope that some day there can be a better way to handle 480p.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:04 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
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Again, you can just leave the RT5X in 1440/16:9 which would be generic sampling for all resolutions with the correct AR without doing any extra work. Or you could use one of the 1080p/1200p modes. These would all be the "better" solutions you're looking for.

In general, if you don’t want to do any work at all, the 1080pFill mode is exactly what you want. The other resolutions were always for the tinkerers. Unless you want to put in the work of adjusting the sampling settings, matching to your monitors native resolution is moot.

I wouldn't recommend running any game in 480i, if 480p is an option. Even with MA deinterlacing the image quality loss is too severe.

Quote:
I mean, I wouldn't be complaining about those.


I appreciate that, but someone else would. :D Keep in mind, I'm but one guy trying to juggle many requests :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:17 pm 


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Hey Mike, out of curiosity, how does the 5X Pro and 2X Pro handle 24KHz / 384p RGBS when the output is set to 480p? Is it currently possible to output centered timings/black bordered 384p in a 480p frame?

Asking because my Mace:TDA arcade machine which also features a Neo Geo MVS and a GroovyMAME PC could potentially benefit if I slap one of my Hitachi dual scan CRTs in there. Im currently running a WG K7000 15KHz monitor and while it looks great, my original goal of getting the 24KHz mode of my Seattle hardware working isnt possible with it. Wondering how your box could currently handle being fed either 15KHz from the MVS, 24KHz from the Seattle PCB or MAME box, or 31KHz from the MAME box, always outputting 31KHz to the display.

I have the 5X Pro for various uses but if the 2X Pro could also do this I could purchase one dedicated for this use case. My nerd senses are tingling at the thought of this project. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:44 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
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Josh128 wrote:
Hey Mike, out of curiosity, how does the 5X Pro and 2X Pro handle 24KHz / 384p RGBS when the output is set to 480p? Is it currently possible to output centered timings/black bordered 384p in a 480p frame?

Asking because my Mace:TDA arcade machine which also features a Neo Geo MVS and a GroovyMAME PC could potentially benefit if I slap one of my Hitachi dual scan CRTs in there. Im currently running a WG K7000 15KHz monitor and while it looks great, my original goal of getting the 24KHz mode of my Seattle hardware working isnt possible with it. Wondering how your box could currently handle being fed either 15KHz from the MVS, 24KHz from the Seattle PCB or MAME box, or 31KHz from the MAME box, always outputting 31KHz to the display.

I have the 5X Pro for various uses but if the 2X Pro could also do this I could purchase one dedicated for this use case. My nerd senses are tingling at the thought of this project. :mrgreen:


Cool stuff! The old 2X-Pro was limited to standard def (15 kHz) so won't take it. The 5X in theory can do all of this, but I'd need a arcade board to probe and generate a profile for it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:52 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Hey Mike, out of curiosity, how does the 5X Pro and 2X Pro handle 24KHz / 384p RGBS when the output is set to 480p? Is it currently possible to output centered timings/black bordered 384p in a 480p frame?

Asking because my Mace:TDA arcade machine which also features a Neo Geo MVS and a GroovyMAME PC could potentially benefit if I slap one of my Hitachi dual scan CRTs in there. Im currently running a WG K7000 15KHz monitor and while it looks great, my original goal of getting the 24KHz mode of my Seattle hardware working isnt possible with it. Wondering how your box could currently handle being fed either 15KHz from the MVS, 24KHz from the Seattle PCB or MAME box, or 31KHz from the MAME box, always outputting 31KHz to the display.

I have the 5X Pro for various uses but if the 2X Pro could also do this I could purchase one dedicated for this use case. My nerd senses are tingling at the thought of this project. :mrgreen:


Cool stuff! The old 2X-Pro was limited to standard def (15 kHz) so won't take it. The 5X in theory can do all of this, but I'd need a arcade board to probe and generate a profile for it.


Would probing the output RGBS of a composite sync enabled VGA card at the appropriate resolution work? I actually do have the Atari Seattle board and a scope. What exactly are you probing for and does it need to be a certain pattern or full screen color? Would a generic sampling 384p work or would you need separate profiles for the different horizontal resolutions and vertical freqs?

What would happen with the current firmware if you fed 384p to it? Would it just not sync up at all?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:42 pm 


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Joined: 27 Apr 2015
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Location: New York
mikechi2 wrote:
The RT5X samples 720 active pixels and projects that into a 4:3 window, per the CEA-861 standard with a pixel aspect ratio of 10/11. For the games that incorrectly used square pixels (which causes them to look skinny), the 1080p (under) mode should stretch it back out, while maintaining optimal sampling/auto-phase.

In general, this entire area is a mess due to inconsistent practices across consoles and developers, so my default position has been to display it "like a CRT" (which is exactly what the 4:3 mode does).

I'm a bit surprised to hear about Xbox, though. From my (limited) experience, Xbox games did it correctly. It was just DC and a mix and match of titles on other consoles that used square pixels when it should've been 10/11.

Thanks Mike for the clear explanation. Glad to hear that the 1080p Under more already gives an option to display the pixels as square.

Please consider the feature request of adding a third sampling mode for 480p that does the non-generic (phase-adjusted) 640-wide square pixels inside an 858 total signal. It would live alongside the 720-wide and “Generic 16:9” sampling options and provide support for more output modes than just 1080 under.

Keep up the great work and thanks for all the time and love you’ve put into your products.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:00 pm 



Joined: 06 Jan 2018
Posts: 12
I have the RT2X, RT2X-M, and the RT2X-Scart.

I got the 5x a few months ago, and I love it, but is there any reason whatsoever to keep the old ones? Any advantages that they have? Otherwise I'm thinking of selling all 3 on ebay.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:02 am 


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ewilly wrote:
I have the RT2X, RT2X-M, and the RT2X-Scart.

I got the 5x a few months ago, and I love it, but is there any reason whatsoever to keep the old ones? Any advantages that they have? Otherwise I'm thinking of selling all 3 on ebay.

I'd keep at least one of them as a spare if it were me. You might want a portable rig or test unit or something. Otherwise, no


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:16 am 



Joined: 05 Oct 2021
Posts: 12
I have my retroTINK5X connected to my VEWLIX. Looking forward to TianFeng's HD15-2-SCART adapter to take full advantage of it with that setup. Also using IrkenLabs Jammafier.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:35 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 569
awe444 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
The RT5X samples 720 active pixels and projects that into a 4:3 window, per the CEA-861 standard with a pixel aspect ratio of 10/11. For the games that incorrectly used square pixels (which causes them to look skinny), the 1080p (under) mode should stretch it back out, while maintaining optimal sampling/auto-phase.

In general, this entire area is a mess due to inconsistent practices across consoles and developers, so my default position has been to display it "like a CRT" (which is exactly what the 4:3 mode does).

I'm a bit surprised to hear about Xbox, though. From my (limited) experience, Xbox games did it correctly. It was just DC and a mix and match of titles on other consoles that used square pixels when it should've been 10/11.

Thanks Mike for the clear explanation. Glad to hear that the 1080p Under more already gives an option to display the pixels as square.

Please consider the feature request of adding a third sampling mode for 480p that does the non-generic (phase-adjusted) 640-wide square pixels inside an 858 total signal. It would live alongside the 720-wide and “Generic 16:9” sampling options and provide support for more output modes than just 1080 under.

Keep up the great work and thanks for all the time and love you’ve put into your products.


Sounds a lot like the Dreamcast sampling issues for Dreamcast reported by Bob here: https://www.retrorgb.com/dreamcast.html


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