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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:17 pm 


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TooBeaucoup wrote:
SuperSpongo wrote:
So, about that 1024x768 mode... is Mike still visiting here every once in a while or should I make an account and bother him on Twitter? :oops:


Mike checks in here on occasion but is waaaayyyyy more active on Twitter.

I really wish he was at least on Facebook. I don't have nor want to have a Twitter account so this forum is the only way I have to ask him questions (short of emailing him directly I suppose).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm 


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Tempest_2084 wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:
SuperSpongo wrote:
So, about that 1024x768 mode... is Mike still visiting here every once in a while or should I make an account and bother him on Twitter? :oops:


Mike checks in here on occasion but is waaaayyyyy more active on Twitter.

I really wish he was at least on Facebook. I don't have nor want to have a Twitter account so this forum is the only way I have to ask him questions (short of emailing him directly I suppose).


He's also on Facebook, and he's on Facebook more than here, but definitely on Twitter the most. However, I have seen him recommend using email if you really want to get a hold of him.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:45 pm 


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TooBeaucoup wrote:
He's also on Facebook, and he's on Facebook more than here, but definitely on Twitter the most. However, I have seen him recommend using email if you really want to get a hold of him.

Oh is he? That's good to know. I've had minor questions, but I really didn't want to bother him since I'm sure he's busy.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:31 pm 


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Has anyone connected their Supergun via Scart to the 5x? I'm wondering if I need to add a resistor on the sync line from a Sigma Raijin? ty


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:45 pm 


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I'm not sure if this has been asked. Can I run the target 540p custom firmware on a retrotink 2x PRO or does the 2x PRO not have the ability to framebuffer. I think a lot more people would buy the 2x PRO if they owned an HDCRT..
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:10 am 


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The 2X series do not have framebuffers. The multiformat can do 720p and 1080i passthrough with overclocking and sampling limitations, but I don't think it can scale anything but 240 lines per field/frame to 480 lines per frame.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:06 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
The 2X series do not have framebuffers. The multiformat can do 720p and 1080i passthrough with overclocking and sampling limitations, but I don't think it can scale anything but 240 lines per field/frame to 480 lines per frame.


Well... That’s that then. I thought so but wanted to confirm..

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:35 am 


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digitron wrote:
Has anyone connected their Supergun via Scart to the 5x? I'm wondering if I need to add a resistor on the sync line from a Sigma Raijin? ty


Yeah, you will want to slap a 470 ohm resistor on dere 8)
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:03 pm 


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kitty666cats wrote:
digitron wrote:
Has anyone connected their Supergun via Scart to the 5x? I'm wondering if I need to add a resistor on the sync line from a Sigma Raijin? ty


Yeah, you will want to slap a 470 ohm resistor on dere 8)


Thank you!!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:27 am 



Joined: 17 Sep 2021
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Hi everyone!
I'm new to this forum, I think this is the place where I could get my answers regarding the RetroTINK 5X
I recently bought this product to play mostly games from my childhood (PS1, PS2, Gamecube, Wii) so mostly 480i/p games (except PS1 of course)

I play all the systems using D-Terminal cables (because I live in Japan), through a switcher and then converted to component to the TINK 5X and then to a 1080p TV

I really like the look the aperture grill scanlines, it really helps to get the 'CRT' look I always remember

I would like to understand more (or even create an up to date comprehensive guide) about the different 1080p output resolutions (FILL, OVER, UNDER) and the different inputs to get integer scaling to get crisp scanlines

From my understanding 1080p FILL is not suited for this scenario so I'll skip this one

For 240p games it should be okay to go to 1080p OVER (and lose some overscan areas but that's okay)
5X 240p -> 1200p in a 1080p window

Then comes the tricky 480i/p,
4X 480i and 2X 480p -> 960p in a 1080p window (if I understand correctly)

First of all I don't understand why the aspect ratio seems off (or at least different for 4:3 games) compared to 1080p FILL or OVER, do you think it might be possible to get a workaround in future update?
I especially noticed that in GTA San Andreas, in 1080p FILL or OVER the Radar seems like a circle, but in 1080p UNDER, it is more squeezed in the top and bottom (Sorry I don't have any screenshot right now, but I think the get the idea)

Also why it is impossible to get a proper 16:9 aspect ratio for 480p games (especially the will)? Is it the limitation of the TINK hardware or the weird specs of the video signal?

Thank you so much for your expertise!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:01 pm 


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Pretty sure it doesn’t based on what I’ve found, but just wanted to confirm: the RT5X doesn’t have any general-purpose horizontal shift+stretch options, correct? Just the predefined per console profiles? Asking because the few places I know such options have come in handy with OSSC are:

- Gamecube and Wii 480p content, which has variable horizontal resolutions per game
- Some PS1 games that are way off center relative to standard spec
- Nonstandard or custom modes from emulation boxes
- 512px wide PS2 games when forced to 480p (though in this case the signal would be RGsB and so not directly compatible with the RetroTink anyways…)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:39 pm 



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combatistor wrote:
First of all I don't understand why the aspect ratio seems off (or at least different for 4:3 games) compared to 1080p FILL or OVER, do you think it might be possible to get a workaround in future update?
I especially noticed that in GTA San Andreas, in 1080p FILL or OVER the Radar seems like a circle, but in 1080p UNDER, it is more squeezed in the top and bottom (Sorry I don't have any screenshot right now, but I think the get the idea)

Also why it is impossible to get a proper 16:9 aspect ratio for 480p games (especially the will)? Is it the limitation of the TINK hardware or the weird specs of the video signal?


For the first one, make sure that your TV isn't doing additional aspect ratio shenanigans. Most TVs by default set the aspect ratio to something that slightly scales the picture. You'll want to change it so that it's dot-by-dot or original or whatever they call it where it doesn't do anything other than display the picture exactly as it comes. I'll also say that if I'm understanding correctly, the fill option does not use integer scaling, it uses interpolated scaling which allows it to fill the screen, not have scrolling shimmer, and display at the proper aspect ratio with only a minimal (if any) hit to sharpness. The under and over modes use integer scaling (4x and 5x respectively) which gives very sharp results, but the aspect ratio will generally be too narrow as typical SD content does not use square pixels. I think the idea is that you would use the optimal input sampling modes in conjunction with these to get the correct aspect ratio, but I could be wrong about that. But again, you'll need to check your TV's aspect ratio settings, too, to really get it working right.

For the second question, it should be possible, AFAIK, but you need to set the input sampling on the RT5x to "Generic 16:9." You may also need to change your TV's aspect ratio to 16:9, not sure about that one.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:26 pm 



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I could write a bunch of text but MLiG explains it better: https://youtu.be/FvFzcn8NCb4?t=625

The description of the different 1080p modes is also in the user manual.

1080p (Under) is for pixel perfect sampling of DTV 858 (720 x 480) non-square pixels. It is primarily for intended for capturing. Use one of the other ones for gameplay unless your system (like Dreamcast) happens to mistreat 720 x 480 as square pixels, in which case this mode undos the distortion.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:03 pm 


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So I see there was a firmware update a week or so back that add a fix for sync issues on older computers. This did indeed fix my Intellivision sync issues, but I'm still having issues with the top of screen curling in some games. The weird thing is that some games have the issue in 1080 Fill but not Under, while some have it in Under but not Fill. Over works for some as well, but some games don't like that mode either. There doesn't seem to be a 'one size fits all' mode that works for all Intellivision games.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:02 am 


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That's curious. I always thought STIC regulated blanking with a locked timed cadence. Video timing shouldn't change. Can programmers abuse vblanking or maybe ignore the blanking interrupt (when the cpu should store it's state on the stack and handle video tasks)? I don't think horizontal "resolution" can change, either.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:48 am 


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orange808 wrote:
That's curious. I always thought STIC regulated blanking with a locked timed cadence. Video timing shouldn't change. Can programmers abuse vblanking or maybe ignore the blanking interrupt (when the cpu should store it's state on the stack and handle video tasks)? I don't think horizontal "resolution" can change, either.

That I'm not sure of. I know that older games (Armor Battle, Space Battle, etc.) want one mode (Fill I think) while new games (Thunder Castle, Dig Dug) want Under. There are some that seem to buck this trend like though Atlantis (early third party game). I can eventually find a setting that works for each game, but having to cycle through 10+ different resolutions is a pain. I wish I could blacklist resolutions that I can't use.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:08 pm 



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Interesting, I'd assumed that those sorts of distortions were caused by sync irregularities since the dejitter mod fixed those issues in my NES, but here it seems that certain modes of the RT5x can also fix those. You're not also changing between framelock and triple buffer when changing those somehow, are you? Then again, that could be totally unrelated for all I know...


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:32 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
Interesting, I'd assumed that those sorts of distortions were caused by sync irregularities since the dejitter mod fixed those issues in my NES, but here it seems that certain modes of the RT5x can also fix those. You're not also changing between framelock and triple buffer when changing those somehow, are you? Then again, that could be totally unrelated for all I know...

I didn't try changing anything other than the display mode. I believe I have triple buffer enabled.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:51 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
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Without having the console it is hard to say. I'd be curious if the consoles original composite syncs in YPbPr mode.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:37 pm 


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Mike, would it be possible to implement a 240p120Hz output mode? Or is that going too far? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:43 pm 



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I think up to 720p120 is possible but I fear we're veering into some weird and uncharted territories haha

ALTHOUGH - I am very curious what 480i120 would look like...!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:13 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
I think up to 720p120 is possible but I fear we're veering into some weird and uncharted territories haha

ALTHOUGH - I am very curious what 480i120 would look like...!


I suspect it will be similar to line-doubled 240p w/ CRT Simulate scanline option, except twice and bright and vibrant, just like 240p120 is twice as bright and vibrant as line-doubled 240p w/scanlines is. On a 31KHz PC VGA monitor anyways. Thats just a guess though-- I'd happily test it out for you! :wink:

This question goes back to the OSSC Pro thread where I hit up Marqs about it. I was actually able to test 240p120 from my PC VGA out and it looks incredible, but it does exhibit the motion strobing optical illusion. Marqs had said that motion interpolation could be implemented at the cost of an added 8ms lag to negate that but I didnt find it was that big of a deal in any case. However, I was just realizing that theres probably no technical reason why your hardware couldnt do the very same thing. Was curious to see what you thought about it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:02 pm 



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Yeah I did 240p120 on the Pi and it did look quite nice, except the weird motion effects. Inserting a black screen would help, but I’d imagine it reduce the brightness back to something like 480p with fake scanlines.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:22 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Without having the console it is hard to say. I'd be curious if the consoles original composite syncs in YPbPr mode.


The Intellivision was RF only. I have a RGB mod board in mine (Yannick's mod). I do have a composite mod in it as well but I don't use that anymore. Like I said, eventually I can find a mode that works for every game, I just find it weird that some games want one mode and other games want another. I guess it all depends on how each game was programmed.

I do have a future feature request. Can you make it possible to blacklist resolution modes that are unusable on my TV? I only care about 720p and the three 1080p modes, but having to cycle through all the other modes is a pain. I'm not sure how difficult something like that would be to do, but I'd like to make the request.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:39 pm 



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mikechi2 wrote:
Yeah I did 240p120 on the Pi and it did look quite nice, except the weird motion effects. Inserting a black screen would help, but I’d imagine it reduce the brightness back to something like 480p with fake scanlines.


Yep that's exactly what happens with black frame insertion, and if you have scanlines turned on at the same time it's compounding brightness loss, though your nice gamma boosting would help a bit.

For people using LCDs they can crank up the brightness to compensate to some extent, not so much on OLEDs though.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:54 pm 



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Ah, there he is!
Mike, would it be possible to get an output mode for 1024x768? Or is it already possible with the 768p output mode and a setting that I don't know about yet?
A friend of mine has a 5X on the way and a 1024x768 plasma.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:17 pm 



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fernan1234 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Yeah I did 240p120 on the Pi and it did look quite nice, except the weird motion effects. Inserting a black screen would help, but I’d imagine it reduce the brightness back to something like 480p with fake scanlines.


Yep that's exactly what happens with black frame insertion, and if you have scanlines turned on at the same time it's compounding brightness loss, though your nice gamma boosting would help a bit.

For people using LCDs they can crank up the brightness to compensate to some extent, not so much on OLEDs though.


You can get the LG OLED's to have the 'peak brightness' setting set to high which is ~150nit brightness increase. It's not accurate at all but it makes using the RT5X with scanlines and BFI look amazing and vibrant. I used https://github.com/Maassoft/ColorControl to make the changes. Of note, you need BT and wifi enabled and connected on the TV. Took me forever to realize I needed the TV connected to the same network as the laptop. From what I can tell the 3 steps (low, medium, high) each add another 50nits so you can adjust it to whatever you like. Medium and high looked the best to me using 2.4gamma and I believe OLED light set to...65? I'd have to double check but there are a few steps to tweak it to your environment and eyes.

a 120hz mode with BFI enabled would be nice for people that don't have good BFI support on their TVs. Yes, it adds latency, but it definitely increases motion resolution. For people using LG OLEDs the TV pretty much does that already with 60hz games but for those with other sets it could be a huge win.

Are their different types of BFI? Could we get a rolling line BFI similar to how CRTs work? Or just blank the whole screen?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:17 pm 


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SuperSpongo wrote:
Ah, there he is!
Mike, would it be possible to get an output mode for 1024x768? Or is it already possible with the 768p output mode and a setting that I don't know about yet?
A friend of mine has a 5X on the way and a 1024x768 plasma.



The current 768p mode works perfectly for 1024x768 anamorphic pixel plasmas. I posted some pics earlier in this thread somewhere. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:20 pm 


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PearlJammzz wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Yeah I did 240p120 on the Pi and it did look quite nice, except the weird motion effects. Inserting a black screen would help, but I’d imagine it reduce the brightness back to something like 480p with fake scanlines.


Yep that's exactly what happens with black frame insertion, and if you have scanlines turned on at the same time it's compounding brightness loss, though your nice gamma boosting would help a bit.

For people using LCDs they can crank up the brightness to compensate to some extent, not so much on OLEDs though.


You can get the LG OLED's to have the 'peak brightness' setting set to high which is ~150nit brightness increase. It's not accurate at all but it makes using the RT5X with scanlines and BFI look amazing and vibrant. I used https://github.com/Maassoft/ColorControl to make the changes. Of note, you need BT and wifi enabled and connected on the TV. Took me forever to realize I needed the TV connected to the same network as the laptop. From what I can tell the 3 steps (low, medium, high) each add another 50nits so you can adjust it to whatever you like. Medium and high looked the best to me using 2.4gamma and I believe OLED light set to...65? I'd have to double check but there are a few steps to tweak it to your environment and eyes.

a 120hz mode with BFI enabled would be nice for people that don't have good BFI support on their TVs. Yes, it adds latency, but it definitely increases motion resolution. For people using LG OLEDs the TV pretty much does that already with 60hz games but for those with other sets it could be a huge win.

Are their different types of BFI? Could we get a rolling line BFI similar to how CRTs work? Or just blank the whole screen?


Marqs was talking about a motion "interpolation" (think soap opera effect on TVs) being possible on his OSSC Pro. That is, not BFI, but an approximation frame between unique actual frames. If that would be possible, there would be no brightness loss at all. Seems like it would be complicated to implement though. I'd be fine with regular old BFI as an option, but the interpolation, if it worked, would be super nice.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:59 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
Marqs was talking about a motion "interpolation" (think soap opera effect on TVs) being possible on his OSSC Pro. That is, not BFI, but an approximation frame between unique actual frames. If that would be possible, there would be no brightness loss at all. Seems like it would be complicated to implement though. I'd be fine with regular old BFI as an option, but the interpolation, if it worked, would be super nice.


Motion interpolation is a divisive technique, some people love it, while others (myself included) can't stand it and its induced SOE. Any kind of strobing/blinking (such as BFI, rolling scan, etc.) is a more natural way to clear persistence from our vision given the way our eyes work, CRTs had it not by choice but by accident really given the way they worked, but it sure was a happy accident, though sadly outside of increasingly niche video enthusiasts the world is forgetting.


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