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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:24 pm 


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I installed Tim's NESRGB in my toaster NES like 7ish years ago, and when I did I used a Mini Din 9 attached to an off the shelf adapter board as my port. I had a spare Naki Dreamcast cable that I converted the console side to a Genesis mini din 9 connector. The problem I'm asking about is that it's always had a lot of audio buzzing. I think at first it didn't, but it definitely does these days. I can't recall off the top of my head if the cable I left as a dreamcast one does as well, but I can test that later.

My question is - assuming this cable is shielded properly, how do I go about troubleshooting where the interference is? I suspect it's coming from the csync line because the more white on a screen, especially full white, the noisier it is. I thought about ordering a better quality cable from Retro Access, but if the issue is somewhere in my modded console, it'll only help point to that fact.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:53 am 



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Pretty elementary question, bear with me: I’d like to give some use to an old 5.1 Targa home cinema system I have by plugging it to an LG TV set from this year. The Targa device is so old that it doesn’t support digital signals, it just has RCA inputs for aux sources. What’d be the best connection in a case like this, the TV’s minijack phones output directly into the Targa receiver or a DAC for the TV’s optical out?

Neither will support actual 5.1 sound, right?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:29 pm 



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Einzelherz wrote:
My question is - assuming this cable is shielded properly, how do I go about troubleshooting where the interference is? I suspect it's coming from the csync line because the more white on a screen, especially full white, the noisier it is. I thought about ordering a better quality cable from Retro Access, but if the issue is somewhere in my modded console, it'll only help point to that fact.


In cases like this where white/bright pictures increase the noise, it is 100% the video lines (not the sync line) crosstalking into the audio line due to inadequate shielding. A properly shielded cable like one from Retro-Access should fix this for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:44 pm 



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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Pretty elementary question, bear with me: I’d like to give some use to an old 5.1 Targa home cinema system I have by plugging it to an LG TV set from this year. The Targa device is so old that it doesn’t support digital signals, it just has RCA inputs for aux sources. What’d be the best connection in a case like this, the TV’s minijack phones output directly into the Targa receiver or a DAC for the TV’s optical out?

Neither will support actual 5.1 sound, right?

Thanks!


Update: Tried the first option (minijack-RCA) and I only get sound from one of the speakers and the subwoofer. Is this normal and should I expect better results with the DAC solution? I'm really a noob in regards to audio equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:36 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
My question is - assuming this cable is shielded properly, how do I go about troubleshooting where the interference is? I suspect it's coming from the csync line because the more white on a screen, especially full white, the noisier it is. I thought about ordering a better quality cable from Retro Access, but if the issue is somewhere in my modded console, it'll only help point to that fact.


In cases like this where white/bright pictures increase the noise, it is 100% the video lines (not the sync line) crosstalking into the audio line due to inadequate shielding. A properly shielded cable like one from Retro-Access should fix this for you.


The thing is, I think the cable is properly shielded based on the last time I used it on the dreamcast. I need to doublecheck that this weekend. I'm concerned my modding the NES is the source. I just didn't know if there's a troubleshoot method via checking voltages or using an oscilloscope.



Also I have another, unrelated, question. As more and more devices are running off of USB (in my home center I've got snes micro, genesis micro, ps1 classic, legends gamer pro, and now Retrotink 5x) is it a bad idea to use a multiport charger to accommodate all of these? My biggest concern is the seeming unavailability of a multi port USB charger made by a company better than ANKER. Would there be any other concerns for doing this? I'm not thrilled by the idea of each single device needing to use its own wall wart.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:51 pm 



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Can anyone recommend a good quality (preferably shielded) s-video splitter or y-cable? My CRT has only one s-video input, and I would like to connect two svid sources simultaneously. Monoprice makes a cheap splitter, but it gives me pause. I find that you get what you pay for with analog cables.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:33 pm 


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GojiFan90 wrote:
Can anyone recommend a good quality (preferably shielded) s-video splitter or y-cable? My CRT has only one s-video input, and I would like to connect two svid sources simultaneously. Monoprice makes a cheap splitter, but it gives me pause. I find that you get what you pay for with analog cables.


A splitter is going to weaken the signal. I think you want a switch. Philips make a good passive one I've used in the past. The model is PH61148.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:46 pm 



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Einzelherz wrote:
GojiFan90 wrote:
Can anyone recommend a good quality (preferably shielded) s-video splitter or y-cable? My CRT has only one s-video input, and I would like to connect two svid sources simultaneously. Monoprice makes a cheap splitter, but it gives me pause. I find that you get what you pay for with analog cables.


A splitter is going to weaken the signal. I think you want a switch. Philips make a good passive one I've used in the past. The model is PH61148.


Thank you! Luckily AV switchers for analog sources are very affordable nowadays since no one uses them any more (except for us hobbyists)! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:59 pm 


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If a computer monitor says that it supports "adaptive sync," but does not specify Freesync or Gsync, what does that mean and what is it compatible with?

I know it has to do with the VESA standard, but I can't determine what good it can do.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:18 am 


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I was wondering about 4k60 capable scalers, are they desirable?

I saw Extron DSC 401 scaler capable of such a thing but it is not tailored for retro gaming scene, plus it is +1500$ which no one could pay.

I wonder if people are willing to pay say 700$ (or similar comparable price to current scalers) retail price for a capable 4k60 retro scaler, or how much are they willing to pay. Since new scaler devices are easily getting more expensive than before and yet they run out of stock in mere minutes.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:03 pm 


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The Extron is a nice machine and I think there are a lot of units in circulation right now. Lag is one frame and many users won't mind. The price on used machines will be interesting, because most home theatre enthusiasts will have little appetite for a limited processor, with bad deinterlacing (remember that most broadcast content is still 1080i), and no HDR. Gamers will be only people buying them. While not specifically designed for gaming, the Extron HD HD 4k won't have any marketability outside of gaming when commercial/industrial users upgrade and sell their units.

You might find more success building a less expensive limited scaler that expects one standard signal (720p? 960p?
1080p?) and outputs a chunky integer scaled 4k/60 with almost no options over Thunderbolt 3. Of course, that only works if you can hit a reasonable price point. Why Thunderbolt 3? It's free.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:33 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
The Extron is a nice machine and I think there are a lot of units in circulation right now. Lag is one frame and many users won't mind. The price on used machines will be interesting, because most home theatre enthusiasts will have little appetite for a limited processor, with bad deinterlacing (remember that most broadcast content is still 1080i), and no HDR. Gamers will be only people buying them. While not specifically designed for gaming, the Extron HD HD 4k won't have any marketability outside of gaming when commercial/industrial users upgrade and sell their units.

You might find more success building a less expensive limited scaler that expects one standard signal (720p? 960p?
1080p?) and outputs a chunky integer scaled 4k/60 with almost no options over Thunderbolt 3. Of course, that only works if you can hit a reasonable price point. Why Thunderbolt 3? It's free.


I didn't want to undermine Extron stuff, but rather to say that 1500$ for non-gaming oriented 4k60 is just too much. I really don't know who are their customers to be honest, therefore I won't judge.

I was talking about a device similar to 5x or ossc pro but capable of 4k60 with say 2 HDMI inputs (up to 4k60) + all analog inputs. upscale all to 4k60 or downscale all to 240p with minimal lag. this is what I was talking about.

this device will easily be 700-800$ price if we were lucky, therefore will it be desirable in gaming community? are they willing to pay that much? what do you think.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:18 pm 



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I just finished installing a SuperCIC into my SNSP-CPU-01 model SNES, but have been having some serious woes with it when testing.

The results I would get were different and progressively worse and worse:

1. The console would boot, but the LED would cycle between its three colours as though the reset line is being held permanently.
2. The console would take roughly 30 secs for anything to occur, either the LED would light up green (50hz) and do nothing else, or do the same as #1.
3. The console would do nothing at all.

I'm simply using a PIC16F630 on a SOIC14 adapter board and some rather small wiring, all I can think is that there's a small amount of flux left somewhere on the board or there's a short between one of the pads which I really don't see being the case having checked over everything several times.

I'm half tempted to pony up and buy one of borti4938's PCBs and be done with it, I figure that'd be a more reliable solution in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:09 am 



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I can't get colour on my NES (retron hd 1 clone console on ntsc mode, composite) with my PMV-14N6E, wii works fine, also composite.

Colours did show up a couple times but in a weird rainbow strobing way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doajHopLB6Y
I've tried a few other PVMS with the same issue but managed to get colour out of it on a SAM-14MV

I'm not very knowledgeable with these things so I have no ideas


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:33 am 


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Kind of a silly question for here, but can anyone recommend a good flux? I've tried what was supposedly Kester 951 "no-clean" liquid flux bought from Amazon and it didn't seem to do a whole lot other than leave a huge layer of white residue wherever I put it. Extreme cleaning is kind of the opposite of what I was expecting... Maybe a flux pen would be a better option?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:44 am 



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hittheweights93 wrote:
I just finished installing a SuperCIC into my SNSP-CPU-01 model SNES, but have been having some serious woes with it when testing.

The results I would get were different and progressively worse and worse:

1. The console would boot, but the LED would cycle between its three colours as though the reset line is being held permanently.
2. The console would take roughly 30 secs for anything to occur, either the LED would light up green (50hz) and do nothing else, or do the same as #1.
3. The console would do nothing at all.

I'm simply using a PIC16F630 on a SOIC14 adapter board and some rather small wiring, all I can think is that there's a small amount of flux left somewhere on the board or there's a short between one of the pads which I really don't see being the case having checked over everything several times.

I'm half tempted to pony up and buy one of borti4938's PCBs and be done with it, I figure that'd be a more reliable solution in the long run.


I simply ended up reinstalling the original CIC chip and all is well again.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:40 pm 



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bobrocks95 wrote:
Kind of a silly question for here, but can anyone recommend a good flux? I've tried what was supposedly Kester 951 "no-clean" liquid flux bought from Amazon and it didn't seem to do a whole lot other than leave a huge layer of white residue wherever I put it. Extreme cleaning is kind of the opposite of what I was expecting... Maybe a flux pen would be a better option?

Kester 186 no clean works for me. Flux, whether it's a liquid or pen, is used to help solder flow more easily. When you are done you will have a mess of flux residue. There's some debate over whether you should clean "no clean" flux. I do. I clean the residue with alcohol. There's always some white residue left over. I wouldn't say it's a "huge layer" but it's there. If you leave alcohol on the residue too long before wiping off you will have more white residue.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:38 pm 


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eccoboy wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
Kind of a silly question for here, but can anyone recommend a good flux? I've tried what was supposedly Kester 951 "no-clean" liquid flux bought from Amazon and it didn't seem to do a whole lot other than leave a huge layer of white residue wherever I put it. Extreme cleaning is kind of the opposite of what I was expecting... Maybe a flux pen would be a better option?

Kester 186 no clean works for me. Flux, whether it's a liquid or pen, is used to help solder flow more easily. When you are done you will have a mess of flux residue. There's some debate over whether you should clean "no clean" flux. I do. I clean the residue with alcohol. There's always some white residue left over. I wouldn't say it's a "huge layer" but it's there. If you leave alcohol on the residue too long before wiping off you will have more white residue.


Rewatched Dan's N64Digital install tutorial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ5PXZjXLVE&ab_channel=PixelFX) and he uses Kester 959T and doesn't even bother to clean it with alcohol afterwards, since it looks like it doesn't leave much of a residue at all. Complete opposite of what I used, don't know if it was maybe illegitimate or not but it might as well have left a layer of white chalk on the PCB I tried it on. I threw it out right away.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:44 am 



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The white residue won't hurt anything. I usually have some on my boards every time. Trying cleaning it with alcohol. Some might clean off. And "no clean" flux is intended to not be cleaned. However, this is debatable. You can search online for both the clean or not to clean topic and white residue topic to find out more.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:41 am 


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So, I ordered a Sega Saturn VGA cable from Retro Access earlier this year / got the cable roughly ~2 months ago... it was via the custom cable builder section of the site, and I specified in the notes that I did not want or need a 470ohm resistor in the cable. However, I was completely unaware that they also put 220uf capacitors in said cables (on the sync line in the VGA hood, before said line goes into VGA pin 13).

This Saturn cable will not work with my Extron RGB interface or my Apple IIgs monitor (I have a funky VGA -> DA-15 adapter that does work fine via a SCART to VGA with a LM1881, but I am phasing all my SCART stuff out of my setup). When it's connected to my GBS 8220 (w/ GBS Control & clockgen etc) the output image is *extremely* dim.

I am assuming this is probably because of the 220uf capacitor in there... right? I've also been wondering if perhaps there *is* a 470ohm resistor in there somewhere (IDK where they usually put 'em) and my request was overlooked. Beats me! Anyhoo it's a shame, don't currently have a way to properly remove that cap from the sync line...

For the sake of being thorough, it's a RG-JX2 V-Saturn aka 'Model 2' Saturn. I know the need (or lack thereof) for a 220uf cap for the Model 2s has been debated before, as far as I can remember.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:06 am 


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hello,

I would like to ask if I want to output 320x240p 60fps game using HDMI for a modern TV and a CRT\PVM. which resolutions should it be?

I know many tvs don't accept 320x240p but want it to be something like 720x240 @ 60 fps to be like standard 480i 13.5 MHz pixel clock... However, if this 720x240p60 signal is passed to analog transcoder which converts it to analog rgb or ypbpr then fed into a crt, what is going to happen?

will it be displayed?
will it be displayed in the correct 4:3 ratio?

thanks
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:36 am 


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VEGETA wrote:
will it be displayed?
will it be displayed in the correct 4:3 ratio?

Consider this: How can the analog display tell if the signal has 320, 640 or 720 pixels per line? For simplicity, assume that you are looking at an all-black image.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:07 am 


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Unseen wrote:
VEGETA wrote:
will it be displayed?
will it be displayed in the correct 4:3 ratio?

Consider this: How can the analog display tell if the signal has 320, 640 or 720 pixels per line? For simplicity, assume that you are looking at an all-black image.


so the solution is just using 480i equivalent of 320x240p60, which is about 640x480i30. or... maybe use 320x240p60 as active area while total lines are 858x525 which is the same for 480i material. what do you think?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:43 am 


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I think Unseen's point completely flew over your head.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:58 am 


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Extrems wrote:
I think Unseen's point completely flew over your head.


I do get what he said, really.

My point is that CRTs want 15 khz video signal, this could have 480i, 240p, 224p, 288p, etc... my suggestion was to deliver 15khz signal but ensure the active area is 320x240p. By using the same settings as true NTSC 480i stream but has only 240 progressive lines... I am not sure if it will work or not, therefore I am asking.

On the other hand, if I deliver 720x240p signal to a CRT, what would be displayed? assuming the actual picture is still 320x240 while the rest of image is black in the horizontal sides.

what about the 5x, what actual resolution does it deliver for 240p downscale? the GBS-C?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:13 am 


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VEGETA wrote:
so the solution is just using 480i equivalent of 320x240p60, which is about 640x480i30.

Why do you think that these two are equivalent?

Quote:
maybe use 320x240p60 as active area while total lines are 858x525 which is the same for 480i material. what do you think?

Your original posting was not very clear (as usual), but I looked like the premise was to scale a 320x240 picture to 720x240. What you seem to propose here would be to take the original 320 horizontal pixels and window-box them within the 720 active pixels of your target signal? It would change the answers to at least one of your two original questions, but the guiding question I posted should still be applicable.

Maybe this will help: The sync signals tell an analog TV when it is time to return the electron beam to the top (VSync) or left (HSync) of the picture. But how does it know when to reach the right or bottom sides and which lines (vertical) or which part of the line (horizontal) it should show? As an additional hint, there are analog TV standards where blanking and black are indistinguishable from each other.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:22 am 


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Quote:
Why do you think that these two are equivalent?


not 100% equivalent, but same horizontal frequency, same or near pixel clock.

Quote:
Your original posting was not very clear (as usual), but I looked like the premise was to scale a 320x240 picture to 720x240. What you seem to propose here would be to take the original 320 horizontal pixels and window-box them within the 720 active pixels of your target signal? It would change the answers to at least one of your two original questions, but the guiding question I posted should still be applicable.

Maybe this will help: The sync signals tell an analog TV when it is time to return the electron beam to the top (VSync) or left (HSync) of the picture. But how does it know when to reach the right or bottom sides and which lines (vertical) or which part of the line (horizontal) it should show? As an additional hint, there are analog TV standards where blanking and black are indistinguishable from each other.


Ok then I will explain more straightforward. I want to achieve the ability to send 320x240 or similar very small pixel clock signals via HDMI. However, the system I am using in my design resulted in that 240p content pixel frequency is very low and cannot be sent, while 480i is doable. So there is a minimum frequency to have. therefore I thought about manipulating it this way to fit.

However, the manufacturer responded that I can do this by implementing "pixel repetition" which seems on all HDMI TX ICs. Then, the sink device would ignore the repeated pixels.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:45 am 


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VEGETA wrote:
However, the system I am using in my design resulted in that 240p content pixel frequency is very low and cannot be sent, while 480i is doable.

Indeed, DVI and thus HDMI requires a minimum pixel clock of 25MHz. If I remember correctly, I only ever saw one device that accepted a signal with less than that, but it is not something I tend to test very often.

Quote:
However, the manufacturer responded that I can do this by implementing "pixel repetition" which seems on all HDMI TX ICs. Then, the sink device would ignore the repeated pixels.

Yes, that is how HDMI handles all CEA SD signals (e.h. 720x480i) which use an actual pixel clock of 13.5MHz. I believe it is not specified which of the repeated pixels the sink should use, but since they are supposed to be identical it does not matter in practice.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:33 pm 


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do you know how GBS-C and 5X achieve downscaling to 240p? I mean at what active area resolution do they output?

can CRTs and analog monitors actually use the pixel repetition 240p output correctly?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:59 am 


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kitty666cats wrote:
So, I ordered a Sega Saturn VGA cable from Retro Access earlier this year / got the cable roughly ~2 months ago... it was via the custom cable builder section of the site, and I specified in the notes that I did not want or need a 470ohm resistor in the cable. However, I was completely unaware that they also put 220uf capacitors in said cables (on the sync line in the VGA hood, before said line goes into VGA pin 13).

This Saturn cable will not work with my Extron RGB interface or my Apple IIgs monitor (I have a funky VGA -> DA-15 adapter that does work fine via a SCART to VGA with a LM1881, but I am phasing all my SCART stuff out of my setup). When it's connected to my GBS 8220 (w/ GBS Control & clockgen etc) the output image is *extremely* dim.

I am assuming this is probably because of the 220uf capacitor in there... right? I've also been wondering if perhaps there *is* a 470ohm resistor in there somewhere (IDK where they usually put 'em) and my request was overlooked. Beats me! Anyhoo it's a shame, don't currently have a way to properly remove that cap from the sync line...

For the sake of being thorough, it's a RG-JX2 V-Saturn aka 'Model 2' Saturn. I know the need (or lack thereof) for a 220uf cap for the Model 2s has been debated before, as far as I can remember.


...anyone? I have asked about this several places with no input, lol. I emailed R.A. but I doubt I will hear back
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