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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:27 am 


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SCARTicus wrote:
If you want the best stuff, you need to look at only a few brands. Sony, Mitsubishi, JVC, Philips, Panasonic/ProScan, Toshiba and NEC. No one else made truly premium tube television sets with component video. All of those brands kick ass. If it is not on this list then it might be good, but it won't be great. There are some other brands that are good in Europe that we do not have in the United States.


ProScan is actually RCA, not Pana. There is an amazing ProScan to keep an eye out for -
https://www.digitalconnection.com/Archive/ps36800hr.htm
https://www.amazon.com/PROSCAN-PS36800HR-Digital-High-Resolution-Monitor-Receiver/dp/B00005AXG8

...it seems to be the same as this fella here -
https://lowendmac.com/2019/rca-mm36100-amazing-under-the-radar-consumer-crt-display/


36" multiscan VGA presentation monitor/TV with 15kHz component :)
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:52 pm 


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SCARTicus wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:
Can you tell from that picture if it just says Phillips or Phillips Magnavox? There's something after the Phillips but there's a glare and I can't tell if it's just decorative trim or a word.


The picture unquestionably is of a Magnavox. Expect S-video. It definitely will not have component. It could still be a decent set, but it was never high-end.


That's what I thought. The guy swore it had component and when I asked him for a picture he sent me a picture of the back with composite cables plugged in and told me that he knew what he was talking about and why would he lie to me? I told him that mixing up composite and component is a really common thing so no worries, but then he told me again that it was component. At this point I don't really care, I'm passing on the set. It's not worth driving all the way out there to confirm what I'm 99.9% sure of, it's composite not component.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:47 am 


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kitty666cats wrote:
SCARTicus wrote:
If you want the best stuff, you need to look at only a few brands. Sony, Mitsubishi, JVC, Philips, Panasonic/ProScan, Toshiba and NEC. No one else made truly premium tube television sets with component video. All of those brands kick ass. If it is not on this list then it might be good, but it won't be great. There are some other brands that are good in Europe that we do not have in the United States.


ProScan is actually RCA, not Pana. There is an amazing ProScan to keep an eye out for -
https://www.digitalconnection.com/Archive/ps36800hr.htm
https://www.amazon.com/PROSCAN-PS36800HR-Digital-High-Resolution-Monitor-Receiver/dp/B00005AXG8

...it seems to be the same as this fella here -
https://lowendmac.com/2019/rca-mm36100-amazing-under-the-radar-consumer-crt-display/


36" multiscan VGA presentation monitor/TV with 15kHz component :)



Fair enough. Also, funny you mention that 36 inch multi, someone I talk to online just today picked one up. Still, you cannot count on an RCA branded set to be any good. There are many low-end models out there.

Tempest_2084 wrote:
SCARTicus wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:
Can you tell from that picture if it just says Phillips or Phillips Magnavox? There's something after the Phillips but there's a glare and I can't tell if it's just decorative trim or a word.


The picture unquestionably is of a Magnavox. Expect S-video. It definitely will not have component. It could still be a decent set, but it was never high-end.


That's what I thought. The guy swore it had component and when I asked him for a picture he sent me a picture of the back with composite cables plugged in and told me that he knew what he was talking about and why would he lie to me? I told him that mixing up composite and component is a really common thing so no worries, but then he told me again that it was component. At this point I don't really care, I'm passing on the set. It's not worth driving all the way out there to confirm what I'm 99.9% sure of, it's composite not component.


Yeah, this seller is simply a bonafide retard. That set does not have component. I have never seen component, ever, on a Magnavox. And I have seen a shit ton of Magnavoxes. They sold well. There a ton more Volkswagens on the road than Porsches, although they are made by the same company.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:31 am 


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What's everyone opinion of Sharp tubes? I have a chance to snag a 27F543 or a 27F631, which would be better? The 543 has a date of 2005 while the 631 has a date of 2003. Normally I'd grab the higher model number, but the newer TV might have less wear. What's the difference between these two? They're free, but I can't test them beforehand due to lack of a remote.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:27 pm 


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Tempest_2084 wrote:
What's everyone opinion of Sharp tubes? I have a chance to snag a 27F543 or a 27F631, which would be better? The 543 has a date of 2005 while the 631 has a date of 2003. Normally I'd grab the higher model number, but the newer TV might have less wear. What's the difference between these two? They're free, but I can't test them beforehand due to lack of a remote.


I briefly had a 20” Sharp X-Flat (their answer to the Sony WEGA, just like JVC’s i’Art etc) and it looked awesome! I only used the component input, but seeing as it was from the early/mid 2000s like the ones you are considering, the comb filtering on composite is probably very good/Svid should look nearly as good as component (which, again, looked real nice). Their consumer CRTs seem to be kinda overlooked/underrated, dwarfed by the love for Sony/JVC/Toshiba etc
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:32 pm 


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kitty666cats wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:
What's everyone opinion of Sharp tubes? I have a chance to snag a 27F543 or a 27F631, which would be better? The 543 has a date of 2005 while the 631 has a date of 2003. Normally I'd grab the higher model number, but the newer TV might have less wear. What's the difference between these two? They're free, but I can't test them beforehand due to lack of a remote.


I briefly had a 20” Sharp X-Flat (their answer to the Sony WEGA, just like JVC’s i’Art etc) and it looked awesome! I only used the component input, but seeing as it was from the early/mid 2000s like the ones you are considering, the comb filtering on composite is probably very good/Svid should look nearly as good as component (which, again, looked real nice). Their consumer CRTs seem to be kinda overlooked/underrated, dwarfed by the love for Sony/JVC/Toshiba etc


Good to know. I'm going over there today with a Genesis and the 240p Suite to test them and see which one looks best. Unfortunately I can't bring my Component setup due to it being a pain to unhook, but I have a composite and S-Video cable that should work. I'm mostly just concerned about the geometry and convergence.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:54 pm 


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How do you adjust horizontal static convergence on a TV that doesn't have an HSTAT VR? Anything new, fancy or high quality like even an ancient PVM has a pot on the neckboard to adjust horizontal static convergence, but many mid 90s TVs seem to lack it :/ It's not on the neckboard and nowhere to be found in the horizontal deflection area on the A-board either. Is there really no way to tweak that on these sets?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:52 pm 



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ASDR wrote:
How do you adjust horizontal static convergence on a TV that doesn't have an HSTAT VR? Anything new, fancy or high quality like even an ancient PVM has a pot on the neckboard to adjust horizontal static convergence, but many mid 90s TVs seem to lack it :/ It's not on the neckboard and nowhere to be found in the horizontal deflection area on the A-board either. Is there really no way to tweak that on these sets?

H Stat and digital convergence controls are too expensive to be implemented on consumer-grade sets, that's why you dont see it. You adjust horizontal convergence by widening or closing the gap between the convergence rings.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:55 pm 


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tongshadow wrote:
H Stat and digital convergence controls are too expensive to be implemented on consumer-grade sets, that's why you dont see it. You adjust horizontal convergence by widening or closing the gap between the convergence rings.


Ok, makes sense I guess! The later consumer Sony's have that stuff. FE1/BE-3D chassis has basically nothing on the yoke & C-board to adjust but FE2 already has plenty of adjustments like HSTAT and various dyn. convergence.

I've always been confused by the interaction between the VSTAT rings and the HSTAT resistor. IIRC changing the gap on the first set of rings adjusts convergence vertically while spinning them in unison adjusts it horizontally. Is the resistor basically just a convenience? That's basically how I use it. Often convergence is good enough and I just don't want to get into the whole ring spinning business, but 30s of resistor tweaking is kind of a no-brainer if horizontal center convergence is less than perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:12 pm 


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I ended up snagging the 27F543 as the 631 has geometry issues that I wasn't sure if I could fix (bad pincushioning at the top). I didn't get much of a chance to play with things, but off the bat the geometry looks good. I think I might have to shrink the horizontal size though for other systems (I tested it with a Genesis and it completely fills the screen). My first reaction was that it wasn't as sharp as my Trinitron, but it has better geometry and the convergence isn't messed up so that's already two pluses.

Here's a picture. You'll have to forgive the washed out look and glare as I had to tweak the exposure on my iphone to get a picture without the retrace and it really washes out the colors. The geometry isn't perfect, but it's 95% there. I still need to go into the service menu and see what I can do.

Spoiler: show
Image


Last edited by Tempest_2084 on Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:42 am 



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ASDR wrote:
I've always been confused by the interaction between the VSTAT rings and the HSTAT resistor. IIRC changing the gap on the first set of rings adjusts convergence vertically while spinning them in unison adjusts it horizontally. Is the resistor basically just a convenience? That's basically how I use it. Often convergence is good enough and I just don't want to get into the whole ring spinning business, but 30s of resistor tweaking is kind of a no-brainer if horizontal center convergence is less than perfect.

It's the other way around, spin both for vertical and change the gap for horizontal. H STAT pot is part of the tube's design, helps to get very tight convergence since you can only do so much with manual adjustments on the rings.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:03 am 


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tongshadow wrote:
ASDR wrote:
I've always been confused by the interaction between the VSTAT rings and the HSTAT resistor. IIRC changing the gap on the first set of rings adjusts convergence vertically while spinning them in unison adjusts it horizontally. Is the resistor basically just a convenience? That's basically how I use it. Often convergence is good enough and I just don't want to get into the whole ring spinning business, but 30s of resistor tweaking is kind of a no-brainer if horizontal center convergence is less than perfect.

It's the other way around, spin both for vertical and change the gap for horizontal. H STAT pot is part of the tube's design, helps to get very tight convergence since you can only do so much with manual adjustments on the rings.


My memory is certainly a bit hazy on adjusting the rings, but this diagram is in basically every Sony service manual ever:

Image

This looks to me like ring gap = vertical convergence, ring position = horizontal convergence?

As far HSTAT resistor vs the first pair of rings, you'd say just use the resistor if it's there for horizontal convergence or rings first and then resistor for fine tuning?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:38 pm 



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These manuals, specially Sony's, are cryptic but when you actually start working with the things it's way more simple than it seems.

https://i.imgur.com/87U4pkq.png
https://i.imgur.com/xlyb4tv.png

According to the following manual from a PVM-14N2U you need to keep the angle between the tabs constant and equal to avoid "beam striking" (whatever that means) and adjust V-STAT. Then, H-STAT is adjusted on the pot.
https://i.imgur.com/hoWtvri.png


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:02 pm 


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After looking at the geometry on my 27F543 I can see there's a small convergence issue that I'd like to try and fix. You can see it i you put up the red/white grid from the 240p test suite (picture above). There's a small bit of white/blue separation in the upper left and the white part of the grid is overlapping the red on the right side. I had this happen before on my Sony and I was able to mostly fix it by adjusting the H-Stat. Before I go through the trouble of opening this set up, does anyone know if the 27F543 has an H-Stat adjust? I've read that many TVs don't.

If I can't find an H-Stat adjust, can this be fixed by slightly adjusting the focus? I know it has a focus knob on the flyback.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:20 pm 


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Tempest_2084 wrote:
After looking at the geometry on my 27F543 I can see there's a small convergence issue that I'd like to try and fix. You can see it i you put up the red/white grid from the 240p test suite (picture above). There's a small bit of white/blue separation in the upper left and the white part of the grid is overlapping the red on the right side. I had this happen before on my Sony and I was able to mostly fix it by adjusting the H-Stat. Before I go through the trouble of opening this set up, does anyone know if the 27F543 has an H-Stat adjust? I've read that many TVs don't.

If I can't find an H-Stat adjust, can this be fixed by slightly adjusting the focus? I know it has a focus knob on the flyback.


As someone with a good Philips CRT that has more convergence issues than this, I suggest you think about living with it rather than tinkering inside a set you have no service manual for.

In my experience, cleaning up CRT error that isn't symmetric in at least one plane is very difficult.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:45 pm 


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Einzelherz wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:
After looking at the geometry on my 27F543 I can see there's a small convergence issue that I'd like to try and fix. You can see it i you put up the red/white grid from the 240p test suite (picture above). There's a small bit of white/blue separation in the upper left and the white part of the grid is overlapping the red on the right side. I had this happen before on my Sony and I was able to mostly fix it by adjusting the H-Stat. Before I go through the trouble of opening this set up, does anyone know if the 27F543 has an H-Stat adjust? I've read that many TVs don't.

If I can't find an H-Stat adjust, can this be fixed by slightly adjusting the focus? I know it has a focus knob on the flyback.


As someone with a good Philips CRT that has more convergence issues than this, I suggest you think about living with it rather than tinkering inside a set you have no service manual for.

In my experience, cleaning up CRT error that isn't symmetric in at least one plane is very difficult.


The white overlapping the red on the right side seems to be symmetric. If this set had an H-STAT knob I could fix ti in a jiffy, but I've been told that only Trinitrons have those. I think you can also use the focus knob to fix something like this as long as you don't move it too much, but I'm not sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:32 pm 


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tongshadow wrote:
These manuals, specially Sony's, are cryptic but when you actually start working with the things it's way more simple than it seems.

https://i.imgur.com/87U4pkq.png
https://i.imgur.com/xlyb4tv.png

According to the following manual from a PVM-14N2U you need to keep the angle between the tabs constant and equal to avoid "beam striking" (whatever that means) and adjust V-STAT. Then, H-STAT is adjusted on the pot.
https://i.imgur.com/hoWtvri.png


Yeah, that's been my experience as well. As long as you have the right test patterns and a decent mirror so you can see while behind the TV just fiddle with things till it makes sense and looks good. Guess I'll do my best to avoid 'beam striking'. Was just trying to look up what exactly the rings do since my memory is fuzzy from the last time I adjusted them. The service manuals are often wrong, for instance they all tell you to adjust the HSTAT even on C-boards that don't have it. There's even a symbol for an adjustable resistor in the schematic, but there clearly isn't one on the board.

What I found interesting about this picture you linked:
https://imgur.com/xlyb4tv
is that I don't think I've ever seen a TV where the purity rings are supposed to be the first pair? Guess the placement doesn't matter, just the type of magnets. Then again I own several TVs that have 5 rings and only seem to have a single magnet ring for purity. CRTs are strange.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:39 pm 


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Tempest_2084 wrote:
After looking at the geometry on my 27F543 I can see there's a small convergence issue that I'd like to try and fix. You can see it i you put up the red/white grid from the 240p test suite (picture above). There's a small bit of white/blue separation in the upper left and the white part of the grid is overlapping the red on the right side. I had this happen before on my Sony and I was able to mostly fix it by adjusting the H-Stat. Before I go through the trouble of opening this set up, does anyone know if the 27F543 has an H-Stat adjust? I've read that many TVs don't.

If I can't find an H-Stat adjust, can this be fixed by slightly adjusting the focus? I know it has a focus knob on the flyback.


The HSTAT and the two pairs of convergence rings all adjust static convergence, which means the convergence in the center of the screen. The sides of the screen are 'dynamic convergence', which is either adjusted by repositioning the yoke and the spacers or on fancier TVs you have some trimpots or adjustable magnets on the yoke (YCH/TLV/HTIL/etc.). Real fancy CRTs like BVMs and highend PC CRTs might even have service menu settings for that. Corner convergence and geometry like in your picture can generally only be fixed with convergence strips and various disc/bar ferite magnets. As far as focus is concerned, just give it a spin, it's very easy to tweak, you'll see what it does.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:57 pm 


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I can give it a try. I've never had luck with those strips though.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:09 pm 


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Tempest_2084 wrote:
I can give it a try. I've never had luck with those strips though.


The ones I bought from eBay didn't work too well, others I harvested from a dead tube did the job. You can try making them yourself, it's just a piece of cardboard/plastic, double sided tape on one end and some permalloy magnet tape from 3M etc. on the other.

This whole sticking magnets to your TV thing is a bit of an art. I've asked here for advice after being frustrated and didn't really get any useful answers, I'd recommend to just try as many different magnets as possible. Just take some random fridge magnets etc., buy a few different kinds from AliExpress and wave them around the tube near the yoke, see what works. I eventually managed to find something that corrected my busted corners on a few CRTs. Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:57 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:
I can give it a try. I've never had luck with those strips though.


The ones I bought from eBay didn't work too well, others I harvested from a dead tube did the job. You can try making them yourself, it's just a piece of cardboard/plastic, double sided tape on one end and some permalloy magnet tape from 3M etc. on the other.

This whole sticking magnets to your TV thing is a bit of an art. I've asked here for advice after being frustrated and didn't really get any useful answers, I'd recommend to just try as many different magnets as possible. Just take some random fridge magnets etc., buy a few different kinds from AliExpress and wave them around the tube near the yoke, see what works. I eventually managed to find something that corrected my busted corners on a few CRTs. Good luck.

I suppose I can try that. The last time I tried using strips all it seemed to do was screw up the convergence in the corner. I've seen videos of people moving a strip around and the convergence stayed perfect while the geometry moved. Maybe I wasn't doing it right or perhaps I didn't stick them down far enough? I kind of get nervous when my fingers get that close to the yoke.

Now that I have a reasonably decent backup TV I may actually try and fix my Sony first. It's going to require loosening and adjusting the yoke, but I was afraid to mess with it in case I completely botched it and was left with no TV. With my Sony I have convergence issues on the bottom and lower right, and although the picture doesn't show it there's a 'red shadow' effect on some text like with my Genesis Flash Cart. And of course the standard Trinitron yoke sag.

Is this something that can be fixed by just moving the yoke or do I need to futz with the rings? I tried the rings once, but they have such a heavy layer of epoxy on them that after spending an hour scraping it off they still wouldn't move. I don't want to put too much pressure on them as I'm afraid of breaking the neck of the tube. I honestly think I can get this fixed by just playing with the yoke and the H-Stat knob.

Spoiler: show
Image


Last edited by Tempest_2084 on Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:06 pm 


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Tempest_2084 wrote:
ASDR wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:
I can give it a try. I've never had luck with those strips though.


The ones I bought from eBay didn't work too well, others I harvested from a dead tube did the job. You can try making them yourself, it's just a piece of cardboard/plastic, double sided tape on one end and some permalloy magnet tape from 3M etc. on the other.

This whole sticking magnets to your TV thing is a bit of an art. I've asked here for advice after being frustrated and didn't really get any useful answers, I'd recommend to just try as many different magnets as possible. Just take some random fridge magnets etc., buy a few different kinds from AliExpress and wave them around the tube near the yoke, see what works. I eventually managed to find something that corrected my busted corners on a few CRTs. Good luck.

I suppose I can try that. The last time I tried using strips all it seemed to do was screw up the convergence in the corner. I've seen videos of people moving a strip around and the convergence stayed perfect while the geometry moved. Maybe I wasn't doing it right or perhaps I didn't stick them down far enough? I kind of get nervous when my fingers get that close to the yoke.

Now that I have a reasonably decent backup TV I may actually try and fix my Sony first. It's going to require loosening and adjusting the yoke, but I was afraid to mess with it in case I completely botched it and was left with no TV. With my Sony I have convergence issues on the bottom and lower right, and although the picture doesn't show it there's a 'red shadow' effect on some text like with my Genesis Flash Cart. And of course the standard Trinitron yoke sag.

Is this something that can be fixed by just moving the yoke or do I need to futz with the rings? I tried the rings once, but they have such a heavy layer of epoxy on them that after spending an hour scraping it off they still wouldn't move. I don't want to put too much pressure on them as I'm afraid of breaking the neck of the tube. I honestly think I can get this fixed by just playing with the yoke and the H-Stat knob.


Please put large images in spoiler tags.

Try a different kind of magnet for corner fixes. It's all a bit of a mystery to me when a magnet affects geometry and when it affects convergence. Just play around a bit, I had better success with bar magnets for some reason.

Regarding safety of handling the yoke - the actual coils use enamel coated wire so they shouldn't zap you, otherwise they wouldn't work as coils. On some yokes there's no shield over the binding posts at the top and bottom, those can be easily touched. The focus voltage to the neckboard is some serious business, but the CRTs I've seen have that completely isolated and it is never just exposed to be touched on the neckboard. Generally, just wear some thin household gloves when handling a very exposed yoke. There's nothing terribly dangerous on there as far as I know.

The grid pattern in the 240p testsuite is only really useful for positioning/sizing. For adjusting focus, geometry and convergence there are better patterns, depending on which version of the testsuite you have (they're all a little different).

I don't think messing with the rings or the hstat will do you any good regarding convergence. It's all looking great in the center, and none of those controls are meant to adjust convergence at the outer regions or corners. Neither will it help with geometry. Do you have any pots or movable magnet pieces on the yoke?

Looking at the geometry problems in your picture, that's most likely a poorly fitted yoke or maybe some deflection caps going bad. You can likely improve geometry and even convergence if you place the yoke properly. Maybe it just needs to be pressed properly on the spacers again, but I've also seen what seems like terrible yoke place from the factory, then you might need to move the spacers out of the way as well to get it to fit properly. Be warned that if you fix the geometry by positioning the yoke properly you might need to adjust convergence again.

Would nice if you could share some pictures of what you did and how it looked afterwards ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:59 pm 


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Sorry, I'll fix that.

So those copper bindings on the yoke aren't dangerous? I adjust the yoke by grabbing the plastic ring, I've never touched the yoke anywhere else.

I'll try adjusting the yoke for geometry and then worrying about the convergence. My fear is that all my tweaking the geometry with the service menu has made fixing things by just moving the yoke impossible. How do you know when the yoke is in a good spot and you should then start using the service menu? Also, I've seen several people say to remove the wedges when adjusting the yoke, but I'm a bit hesitant to do that. I was thinking that I should just try and get the yoke properly aligned with the wedges where they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:47 pm 


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Tempest_2084 wrote:
So those copper bindings on the yoke aren't dangerous? I adjust the yoke by grabbing the plastic ring, I've never touched the yoke anywhere else.


The wire in the coils is insulated, otherwise the coil wouldn't work, it would just all short together and just be a chunk of copper instead of a long run of wire. But it's best not to touch it as it's obviously quite fragile.

Tempest_2084 wrote:
I'll try adjusting the yoke for geometry and then worrying about the convergence. My fear is that all my tweaking the geometry with the service menu has made fixing things by just moving the yoke impossible.


Doing things in the wrong order can make things more difficult, for sure. But that just means you'll have to do another pass at everything.

Tempest_2084 wrote:
How do you know when the yoke is in a good spot and you should then start using the service menu? Also, I've seen several people say to remove the wedges when adjusting the yoke, but I'm a bit hesitant to do that. I was thinking that I should just try and get the yoke properly aligned with the wedges where they are.


Yes, first just try to make sure the yoke is seated against the spacers. Like I said sometimes they messed it up from the factory. I have one TV that has kind of a horizontal trapezoid distortion going on despite the joke being pressed against the spacers, they just installed them wrong. I had to take them out, position everything correctly and the put them back on the tube. But that's just a last resort. Also if you move the yoke too much, i.e. moving it back and forwards etc. you'll definitively have to adjust purity and other things again.

I'd stop messing with the yoke once the problems you have left can be fixed elsewhere. Like if you have something like a vertical pincushion distortion or a horizontal trapezoid distortion going on, very few CRTs have any kind of service menu option to fix that. So you'll have to move the yoke. But once you're left with stuff you can dial in with the service menu or the convergence rings or maybe the pots on the yoke, I'd fix the yoke in place and continue with those options.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:01 am 


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ASDR wrote:
Yes, first just try to make sure the yoke is seated against the spacers. Like I said sometimes they messed it up from the factory. I have one TV that has kind of a horizontal trapezoid distortion going on despite the joke being pressed against the spacers, they just installed them wrong. I had to take them out, position everything correctly and the put them back on the tube. But that's just a last resort. Also if you move the yoke too much, i.e. moving it back and forwards etc. you'll definitively have to adjust purity and other things again.

I think the last time I messed with the yoke I barely loosed the screw and just sort of rotated it a little and a little up and down. Hopefully I can get it back to where it was and then try and dial the convergence in with the H-Stat dial. Like I said, if I really screw it up I have a backup.

Do you think I should bother moving the yoke back and forward at all or just worry about up/down left/right? I REALLY don't want to have to mess with those rings because I don't think I can even get them to move with all that epoxy.

What test pattern from the suite do you recommend for fixing convergence?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:54 pm 


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Tempest_2084 wrote:
ASDR wrote:
Yes, first just try to make sure the yoke is seated against the spacers. Like I said sometimes they messed it up from the factory. I have one TV that has kind of a horizontal trapezoid distortion going on despite the joke being pressed against the spacers, they just installed them wrong. I had to take them out, position everything correctly and the put them back on the tube. But that's just a last resort. Also if you move the yoke too much, i.e. moving it back and forwards etc. you'll definitively have to adjust purity and other things again.

I think the last time I messed with the yoke I barely loosed the screw and just sort of rotated it a little and a little up and down. Hopefully I can get it back to where it was and then try and dial the convergence in with the H-Stat dial. Like I said, if I really screw it up I have a backup.

Do you think I should bother moving the yoke back and forward at all or just worry about up/down left/right? I REALLY don't want to have to mess with those rings because I don't think I can even get them to move with all that epoxy.

What test pattern from the suite do you recommend for fixing convergence?


Those rings can be really stuck. More often than not there's just this paint or some caulk and it comes off rather easily, but sometimes the paint has made its way between the rings and down to the yoke etc. and then it can be a real pain.

You should only have to tilt the yoke, here:

Image

Very recently the 240p testsuite was updated with a new pattern:

Image

That one's ideal IMHO. If your version doesn't have that one yet the standard 'convergence' pattern with the fine grid, four small dots and thin lines is really good. Be sure to reduce your TVs brightness, the bloom effect from a bright TV hides a lot of poor convergence otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:57 pm 


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Thank you. I got that new test pattern (I've been using the grid for these things) so that's what I'll use now.

I plan on opening it up this weekend and very lightly loosening the screw and doing some very small movements to see if I can get things back to normal. Since left/right controls the convergence of the top and bottom where i'm having my biggest issues (you'll notice the bottom white line is almost completely separated) I'll start with that and then work on the corners a bit. Maybe I can fix that yoke sag while I'm at it?

The bottom right corner is the worst since it's not only out of convergence but also pulled up. . However I'm wondering if that's going to need some strips to fix. I'm honestly not expecting miracles here, I just want my CRT back to 'pretty good' without severe geometry issues or noticeable convergence issues. I think my 'red shadow' issue is probably from playing with the H-Stat or Focus knob using just the grid pattern since the grid can look perfect but the text can obviously still be messed up. Hopefully I can fix that with this new pattern.

Actually mine has two screws for the yoke. One is in the normal spot and one is further back. I assume I have to loosen both.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:25 pm 


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Sometimes the convergence assembly (rings) has its own bracket. I don't own such a TV, but I guess you can just leave that one alone when you play with the yoke.

Do you have any controls for dynamic convergence on the yoke? You can fix vertical convergence at the top/bottom with the TLV reactor adjustment and some horizontal convergence at the top/bottom with YCH. Your yoke might also have those magnets on the side that you can slide in and out (they're either caulk'ed in place or not installed, from what I've seen), controlling vertical convergence at the left/right side. Those controls are generally just on PVMs or fancier 2000s TVs, though.

Be curious if it works out, take some pictures of the yoke & screen maybe.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:35 pm 


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Everybody, please help:

Image

So 90s Sony TVs here in Europistan often have issues with horizontal centering for NTSC consoles. They got it mostly worked out by the time they got to the X5, but this lovely Sony X1 certainly doesn't shift far enough. Picture is as good as gets with the service menu :(

I'm about to mess with this TV again after not using it for a while, and I wonder if there's anything I can do to improve this while I got it open. I know I can fix the shift at the source on a MiSTer or RaspberryPi and there are shifter boxes available for RGBS/SCART, but can I just fix this in the TV? Is there maybe a calibration pot or even some resistor I can swap or whatever to let me shift more or a different range?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:07 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
Sometimes the convergence assembly (rings) has its own bracket. I don't own such a TV, but I guess you can just leave that one alone when you play with the yoke.

Do you have any controls for dynamic convergence on the yoke? You can fix vertical convergence at the top/bottom with the TLV reactor adjustment and some horizontal convergence at the top/bottom with YCH. Your yoke might also have those magnets on the side that you can slide in and out (they're either caulk'ed in place or not installed, from what I've seen), controlling vertical convergence at the left/right side. Those controls are generally just on PVMs or fancier 2000s TVs, though.

Oh, I wonder if that's why I could never move those rings?

You know, I'm not sure. I think three's a TLV reactor adjustment, but IIRC I could never figure out how to get it to move. I'll take a picture of the yoke once I get it opened up. It's a KV-27FS100

EDIT: Ah I took some pictures the last time I opened it up. Is this the TLV thing?
Spoiler: show
Image
Image


I'll take some before and after pictures and try and keep track of what I'm doing (if I'm successful) so it will help others.


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