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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:15 pm 


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Yeah, for me, if I grew up playing a game in 480i, thats the look I like to when playing today. My first 480p system was GC, and I got the cables right when they released, and I loved how crisp and sharp it was on the Hitachi Ultravision 36SDX88B. The fact that the 5X allows for both of these on the same set now with zero lag is just amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:24 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
Yeah, for me, if I grew up playing a game in 480i, thats the look I like to when playing today. My first 480p system was GC, and I got the cables right when they released, and I loved how crisp and sharp it was on the Hitachi Ultravision 36SDX88B. The fact that the 5X allows for both of these on the same set now with zero lag is just amazing.


The OSSC has actually been able to do this as well all this time by using 100% scanlines and alternating scanlines for 480i sources, but I think very few people used it. The GBS-C does it by just using bob mode instead of adaptive deinterlacing too. But the 5X also makes it simpler. Oh, some of the 2X models did as well.

Since the 5X's CRT simulate is just bob+scanlines, it should also have the advantage of being faster than the AD mode that most people use.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:06 pm 


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BazookaBen wrote:

But, is there something like a "v-hold" setting in the service menu? Making minor adjustments to that should change where the scanlines land, and could possible give you proper "double strike" 540p. I don't know how that would effect the picture when a 1080i signal is sent though.


Hmm I'll take a look, I went through the other day and adjusted almost every setting in an attempt to get a 540p proper scanlined image with no success, but I'll get back into it. Been adjusting geometry a lot.

I'll go back to testing out my component input as well, really disappointing that I haven't had the same results with my tv, but the 480p does work very well right now.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:32 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:

The OSSC has actually been able to do this as well all this time by using 100% scanlines and alternating scanlines for 480i sources, but I think very few people used it. The GBS-C does it by just using bob mode instead of adaptive deinterlacing too. But the 5X also makes it simpler. Oh, some of the 2X models did as well.

Since the 5X's CRT simulate is just bob+scanlines, it should also have the advantage of being faster than the AD mode that most people use.


The GBS -C does it when you use bob + scanlines, but like the OSSC can only do it in 480p which nets you 14.7 ms baseline lag on these HD sets. What I was referring to was being able to do all of this in the lag free 540p mode for these sets. AFAIK this is the only device so far that can do that.

Questions were asked on Reddit if this allows light guns to work. It would be interesting to test when I get a chance.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:50 pm 


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incrediblehark wrote:
BazookaBen wrote:

But, is there something like a "v-hold" setting in the service menu? Making minor adjustments to that should change where the scanlines land, and could possible give you proper "double strike" 540p. I don't know how that would effect the picture when a 1080i signal is sent though.


Hmm I'll take a look, I went through the other day and adjusted almost every setting in an attempt to get a 540p proper scanlined image with no success, but I'll get back into it. Been adjusting geometry a lot.

I'll go back to testing out my component input as well, really disappointing that I haven't had the same results with my tv, but the 480p does work very well right now.


It sounds very much to me like your set is outputting 1080i, and the fact that every other line on 540p + scanlines is blank, your set is somehow displaying all the active lines in one field, and all the blank lines in the other field, which gives terrible strobing, like trying to use BFI on a 60hz display.

So this is with the digital port in? Is it an HDMI port on your set? Do me a favor and get one of these Portta DACs or equivalent non signal altering FAC and try the component in ports. My set definitely handles the same signals very differently (more compatible) on component than HDMI. The Porttas are super cheap ($20) and ship super fast from Amazon.

Also, you did enable the HDPT option?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:09 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:

The OSSC has actually been able to do this as well all this time by using 100% scanlines and alternating scanlines for 480i sources, but I think very few people used it. The GBS-C does it by just using bob mode instead of adaptive deinterlacing too. But the 5X also makes it simpler. Oh, some of the 2X models did as well.

Since the 5X's CRT simulate is just bob+scanlines, it should also have the advantage of being faster than the AD mode that most people use.


The GBS -C does it when you use bob + scanlines, but like the OSSC can only do it in 480p which nets you 14.7 ms baseline lag on these HD sets. What I was referring to was being able to do all of this in the lag free 540p mode for these sets. AFAIK this is the only device so far that can do that.

Questions were asked on Reddit if this allows light guns to work. It would be interesting to test when I get a chance.


Oh yeah you were talking specifically about 520p for HDTVs, indeed for that particular case the 5X is the only one that has done all of this without making the HDTV add lag.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:27 am 


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Josh128 wrote:

It sounds very much to me like your set is outputting 1080i, and the fact that every other line on 540p + scanlines is blank, your set is somehow displaying all the active lines in one field, and all the blank lines in the other field, which gives terrible strobing, like trying to use BFI on a 60hz display.

So this is with the digital port in? Is it an HDMI port on your set? Do me a favor and get one of these Portta DACs or equivalent non signal altering FAC and try the component in ports. My set definitely handles the same signals very differently (more compatible) on component than HDMI. The Porttas are super cheap ($20) and ship super fast from Amazon.

Also, you did enable the HDPT option?


I believe it is outputting 1080i as well. No HDMI, it is DVI-D input. Using HDMI to DVI transcoder. I do have an Aliexpress HDMI to Component converter but I got the same results as the DVI input, but I will order a Portta to test as well, been meaning to buy one anyway.

When you say "Enable HDPT" do you mean setting it to 1 or 0? I set mine to 0 because I read that was the way to disable processing, but I'll try it with 1, which sounds like it would mean enabled.

Thanks for the advice, I'll order the Portta and will have a chance to test the other settings Monday. If it doesn't work out I'll have to stick with 480p and wait for a 1080i mode one day.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:50 pm 


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incrediblehark wrote:

I believe it is outputting 1080i as well. No HDMI, it is DVI-D input. Using HDMI to DVI transcoder. I do have an Aliexpress HDMI to Component converter but I got the same results as the DVI input, but I will order a Portta to test as well, been meaning to buy one anyway.
.


Transcoder? HDMI to DVI use the same base signal so you should only need a passive adapter, like this adapter or this cable. But even with the right signal chain, we're talking about 540p to a digital input which might not work.

And guess your Aliexpress converter could be detecting a 33.75kHz signal, and automatically going into a 1080i mode. And if it's a scaler and not just a plain converter, then the chances of something going wrong increase. Once you try the Portta you'll know for sure.


Last edited by BazookaBen on Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:04 pm 


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I do have one of those adapters, the only problem is no audio. It wasn’t a problem with ossc because there’s a 3.5mm audio out jack, but for the 5x I need to find a different solution. I didn’t see any difference in quality from the adapter or the transcoder, but like you said it’s the digital input.

Waiting on the portta but I tested out my other hdmi to component to confirm my results were the same as through dvi. It was. Hdpt didn’t change anything, I was able to eliminate the flicker using MDVS and VDVS The flicker went away but in doing so the vertical scan was cutting off picture that the other adjustments couldn’t fix.

We’ll see when the portta arrives though. I really don’t think I’ll get any different results than what I have so far, but I would love to be wrong in this case.

*Edited to include correct service menu adjustments*


Last edited by incrediblehark on Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:47 pm 



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incrediblehark wrote:
I do have one of those adapters, the only problem is no audio. It wasn’t a problem with ossc because there’s a 3.5mm audio out jack, but for the 5x I need to find a different solution.


Why not skip the unnecessary extra step of passing/digitizing the audio through the scaler, and instead simply route your audio directly to your audio receiver/speakers? Unless of course all your have for audio are the speakers built into your TV, which are never ideal so maybe this can also work as an incentive to improve your audio setup as well.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:05 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Why not skip the unnecessary extra step of passing/digitizing the audio through the scaler, and instead simply route your audio directly to your audio receiver/speakers? Unless of course all your have for audio are the speakers built into your TV, which are never ideal so maybe this can also work as an incentive to improve your audio setup as well.


Yeah keep that shit analog all way into your eardrums and soul


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:12 pm 


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Honestly the sound on the XBR is a lot better than I expected. But the guy who gave me the tv included a Bose speaker system I have yet to set up. I used to use external speakers for my d series though. I’ll try breaking out the audio before it gets to the 5x.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:05 am 


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Another cool test, another first in the history of the world of HD CRTs. :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRADxyghbE


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:46 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
Another cool test, another first in the history of the world of HD CRTs. :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRADxyghbE


Awesome! Do you think there's hope for any more complex lightgun games? Guessing Guncon might be out of the question but would love to play some Virtua Cop.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:09 am 


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Im not sure. Logic would indicate that the finer/more precise the gun hit box, the increased chance that the +3.2 ms of lag in this setup would cause issues. I honestly didnt know what to expect here but Duck Hunt worked great and the gun seemed very accurate even from 4 feet away. I dont own any other light guns so this is the limit of my ability to test.

I did confirm however, that when I switched the output to 480p, the lightgun didnt work. The >16 ms lag in that mode is just too much.

As far as the HDPT option you asked about, I dont remember if its 0 or 1 :x , I attempted to look today but my remote stopped working and needs new batteries or some TLC.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:24 am 


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Fancier lightguns like the GunCon work by tracking the exact moment the raster beam passes through their field of view to know where on the screen you're pointing them, and so any amount of latency would throw it off. You've also decoupled the input and output raster by using a device like the 5X, so it's just a no-go.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:29 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Fancier lightguns like the GunCon work by tracking the exact moment the raster beam passes through their field of view to know where on the screen you're pointing them, and so any amount of latency would throw it off. You've also decoupled the input and output raster by using a device like the 5X, so it's just a no-go.


From what Ive read about the GunCon I would tend to agree that it shouldnt work, but there must be some kind of threshold for working vs not working, maybe accuracy suffers the farther you get from 0 ms but it might still work at 1 ms or 2 ms etc. Im not sure this has ever really been put to the test. A GBS-C paired with a VGA monitor would be an obvious step faster to test vs this setup if it doesnt work, as I measured as low as 0.6 ms of lag with that setup vs an SD CRT. I'd be willing to buy a GunCon just to test out of curiosity if they are not outrageously priced just to test.

I have a PS1 and a PS2. I understand the GunCon 2 is the "de facto" standard while the GunCon 3 is a different design that works with all displays, so Im guessing a GC2 would be what I want. Whats a good widely known Gun game, and for which system, that would be good for such a test? I currently have a soft mod for PS2 that allows me to play .isos and I have a complete set that was given to me recently.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:41 pm 


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I'm having an odd sound issue with my 5x and my RGB modded Colecovision. It appears that when the CV is used through the 5x the volume is reduced significantly. This also happens with the 2x, but to a lesser degree. I haven't noticed this issue with my other systems or through the S-Video ports, just with the CV through SCART. The CV is known for low audio out levels, but when used with the 5x the drop in volume is very noticeable. When coupled with the SGM add on (which has a sound chip of its own) then volume drops even further and the extra audio produced by the SGM's sound chip is even more muted. It's all very strange.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:23 pm 


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Just ordered a GunCon 2 to test out with the 540p FW. I know its probably not going to work or at best have issues, but just want to see how far we can go with this. A lot of people seem genuinely interested. Mike, do you plan to add the feature to an official update sometime in the future?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:45 pm 



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That's awesome that the gun works! I certainly didn't expect that. Yeah, this seems to be have gathered a lot of interest, so I'll probably add it to the menu. So far it seems a lot of displays will take 540p, since it is a close cousin of 1080i, which was my main fear. Really glad you guys are having fun with it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:36 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
That's awesome that the gun works! I certainly didn't expect that. Yeah, this seems to be have gathered a lot of interest, so I'll probably add it to the menu. So far it seems a lot of displays will take 540p, since it is a close cousin of 1080i, which was my main fear. Really glad you guys are having fun with it.


Yeah, its pretty neat. Its fun to play around with all this, thanks again. As far as the 540p compatibility, it seems most of the people Ive spoke to that tried it from other sources such as Raspberry Pi, etc have indicated that it is more compatible with the analog component inputs than the digital DVI and HDMI ports on these Sony HD sets. 1080i would be a good fallback option to have for folks whose sets dont take the 540p over digital and dont have a way to convert to component. It should be more compatible with the digital in ports. If its easy to implement, its something you might consider as well when you make it official.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:45 am 



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Josh128 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
That's awesome that the gun works! I certainly didn't expect that. Yeah, this seems to be have gathered a lot of interest, so I'll probably add it to the menu. So far it seems a lot of displays will take 540p, since it is a close cousin of 1080i, which was my main fear. Really glad you guys are having fun with it.


Yeah, its pretty neat. Its fun to play around with all this, thanks again. As far as the 540p compatibility, it seems most of the people Ive spoke to that tried it from other sources such as Raspberry Pi, etc have indicated that it is more compatible with the analog component inputs than the digital DVI and HDMI ports on these Sony HD sets. 1080i would be a good fallback option to have for folks whose sets dont take the 540p over digital and dont have a way to convert to component. It should be more compatible with the digital in ports. If its easy to implement, its something you might consider as well when you make it official.


When I get mine I’ll try it with my Sony HR36M31. The US version got a HDMI/DVI + component input while here in Oz we got one with an analogue RGBHV input (via RCA inputs): https://youtu.be/gwvYErdz5pI?t=345


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:17 pm 


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Cool, looking forward to it! So your set doesnt have a digital in or component in, just straight RGBS via RCA? You have a converter to go from HDMI to that?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:17 pm 


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Tested out Duck Hunt in 540p mode on my set, and it worked! Funny thing is it worked better when I had the flickering caused by the scanlines being enabled. Also tried Virtua cop with the Stunner and Time Crisis 3 with Guncon 2. The Guncon couldn't track properly but I was able to get the Stunner to work somewhat. If I aimed at a target and fired rapidly I'd hit it maybe 30% of the time. Keep in mind that my 540p mode doesn't seem to work as well as Josh's so my results may vary from his. Still waiting on my Portta to compare to my current HDMI to Component solution.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:17 pm 


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@incrediblehawk and josh,

the XBR that incredible hawk has is a 2002 model. (released in 2002, not necessarily made in 2002).

from what i understand there are some differences with those first generation sets that make them more finicky or something. there was some information about the differences in the tombs of threads on the AVS Forums from the time period.

if either of you are interested, i can go through and link the threads for you, but they are so long it might take some time to read through and find the relevant information.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:02 pm 


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Sure, I'd like to read if you can find them.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:07 pm 


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These two threads are pretty packed with info. It's around 2003 at the beginning, and it follows the discovery of the HDPT function in the service menu, and the history of why it's there. There are some false starts in the threads that eventually get cleared up, so I wouldn't take anything at face value until you get through most of it. There is some reference to the changes between model years, but there also might be another thread that has more in those regards.

The first post in each thread has a number of links to both other AVS Forum threads and to other info.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direc ... hdtvs.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direc ... -crts.html


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:27 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
These two threads are pretty packed with info. It's around 2003 at the beginning, and it follows the discovery of the HDPT function in the service menu, and the history of why it's there. There are some false starts in the threads that eventually get cleared up, so I wouldn't take anything at face value until you get through most of it. There is some reference to the changes between model years, but there also might be another thread that has more in those regards.

The first post in each thread has a number of links to both other AVS Forum threads and to other info.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direc ... hdtvs.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direc ... -crts.html


Hey, this is good stuff. Lets move this non-5X discussion to Hoagtechs dump find thread until we get back to the 5X particulars.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:31 am 


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Does Gauntlet Legends on N64 have a strange resolution? Watching a friend set up his 5X Pro and the text looks very weird in N64 320 optimized mode, I'm guessing it's a different res than most games use (288p mode?). Looks weird on my OSSC in optimized mode too, so just a general odd resolution thing I figure. I couldn't seem to find a database of N64 game resolutions like, say, FBX's Genesis/MD resolution list.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:05 am 


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640x240, I think? You'll want to run that game in 4:3 generic.


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