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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 4:26 am 


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Joined: 29 Apr 2021
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Did you guys see the new video by EposVox?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP9cXiWOGt4

What does he have against scart?


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 7:33 pm 


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Personally I've had a lot more trouble with longer runs of component than SCART. With SCART it seems you can always get a nice flat cable that can route under furniture or at least a high quality cable that's not bulky like FIVE shielded RCA cables. Also, while SCART isn't the best in this regard either, so many component cables seem to either be so tight you feel like it's going to break the socket going on, or so loose that it falls off in the blink of an eye.

I jump at the chance to replace either with HDMI mods wherever I can. Lossless, no analogue noise and one manageable cable. Convert back to analogue just before the CRT with a good DAC and it's so much better.
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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 8:07 pm 


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HDMI is much harder to run long distances than anything analog. You can get a lot more distance out of a component or scart or bnc cable that uses coax (or minicoax) than you can from HDMI, where even a 40 foot cable requires absurdly thick garden-hose type cables. Cables so thick you need to use port savers just to avoid destroying the cable connector or HDMI socket from the insane torque.

This can be mitigated by active HDMI cables, though even they have distance limitations before you need to resort to fibre.

Of course, this is more of a problem at higher resolutions. Finding a 40 foot HDMI 2.1 cable is almost impossible without spending hundreds of dollars on a single cable (as it almost needs to be fibre-optic). But you don't need 48 Gbps for anything to do with retro gaming. Unfortunately, I've had reliability issues with even just HDMI 1.4 active cables at that distance.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 8:19 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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The solution for super long digital runs is temporarily converting to SDI, or using ethernet extenders. But in a home setting that's hardly necessary unless you want to have complicated setups across multiple locations of a large house.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:43 pm 


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HDMI ethernet extenders that can do HDMI 2.0 cost around $100, and I'm not sure I've seen any that can do HDMI 2.1. SDI isn't really an option, as that pretty much maxes out at practical prices at 6G-SDI, which is below even HDMI 1.4 throughput. 12G-SDI, which is well below the 18 Gbps of HDMI 2.0, costs $1,600 USD for a sender/receiver pair.

It doesn't take much of a large home to run into these length issues. I need a 40 foot run from my projector or computer to my AV receiver in my one-bedroom apartment, and 40 feet is already essentially impossible for HDMI 2.1 short of like $200 fibre cabling.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 10:20 pm 


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but then again $200 for a fibre-optical HDMI cable isn't too bad. When I think back to what custom made analogue cables 15 to 20 years ago did cost for extended runs (like multi coax RGBHV or good component cables) and how I spend something like $2,000 for the complete home theater video cabling for my setup around 2004, then $200 are a bargain in comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 10:33 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
HDMI ethernet extenders that can do HDMI 2.0 cost around $100, and I'm not sure I've seen any that can do HDMI 2.1. SDI isn't really an option, as that pretty much maxes out at practical prices at 6G-SDI, which is below even HDMI 1.4 throughput. 12G-SDI, which is well below the 18 Gbps of HDMI 2.0, costs $1,600 USD for a sender/receiver pair.


Fair points in principle but in practice I just don't think anyone really needs long runs for 2.1 HDMI. It sounds too easy to just keep your fancy new GPU or PS5s and Xbox's near the HDMI 2.1 compatible display. And by the point in time when there are more, real benefits to HDMI 2.1 long cabling solutions should be even more affordable than now.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 10:49 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
the TVP7002 can do either RGB 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:4:4, no conversions required

That's just the analog front-end, the question is what the OSSC uses for internal processing. If it does the processing in YCbCr like the Framemeister and RetroTINK products do, then the signal is going to get converted from RGB to YCbCr.

Yeah I know, but since it's a line multiplier that does all the processing on an FPGA running bespoke code, I'd be shocked if it was performing colourspace conversion after digitization

There is currently no separate processing path for YCbCr on the FPGA, it processes everything in RGB. So if the the analog input is YPbPr, the firmware instructs the TVP7002 to convert that to RGB prior to output. The IT6613 HDMI TX is in turn instructed to convert its RGB input to YCbCr if the 'TX mode' menu option is set to 'HDMI (YCbCr444)'. This means that with the current firmware, the OSSC Classic can perform 0, 1 or 2 color space conversions, depending on the kind of the input signal and the user settings.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 11:56 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Fair points in principle but in practice I just don't think anyone really needs long runs for 2.1 HDMI. It sounds too easy to just keep your fancy new GPU or PS5s and Xbox's near the HDMI 2.1 compatible display. And by the point in time when there are more, real benefits to HDMI 2.1 long cabling solutions should be even more affordable than now.


I like my desktop computer to be at my computer desk, next to its mouse/keyboard/monitor/speakers/peripherals, not on the other side of the living room where my TV would be, a ~40 foot cable run away (to go around the edge of the room). It isn't an issue for the moment as I'm using a 1080p60 projector, but I plan to replace that with a 4K120 TV in the medium term, which requires HDMI 2.1. However, when that happens, I'll probably just spring for the ~$200 fibre cabling to make that work.

I don't think HDMI 2.1 is all that niche, it's required to drive the popular LG OLED TVs at their native resolution/refresh.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 11:58 pm 


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Interesting, so it truly is a RGB device then


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 5:07 pm 


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VariaSuit wrote:
It has nothing to do with video quality. Some people just prefer the consistency and simplicity of component over SCART.


This is what fueled my transition. When I picked up RGB cables years ago, I was uncomfortable with the idea of managing Component and Scart at the same time. I had the Gamecube and OG Xbox already running Component, and I told myself that alternating between a Scart and Component switcher would be an annoyance that I'd have to put up with. I like to keep the chain simple and short with as little conversion/routing as possible. Initially, I didn't care.

Last year I was becoming increasingly frustrated with alternating between the two, as I wasn't keen on adding a converter into the mix. So I switched. Component just keeps things simple.

I have all my consoles hooked into a Gcomp, which is then integrated into the PVM. That's the end goal I wanted to reach from the start. Worrying about breakout cables, sync methods, capacitors on RGB lines and resistors on sync lines isn't something I want to keep in mind for each individual console.

My switch to Component was entirely my own decision to simplify the process when paired with my PVM - I wasn't influenced by outside sources. And unless you want a single cabling method like me, I'm not sure why you'd switch to begin with - Scart is fine.

Now I'm curious - are people actually transitioning away from Scart, or is this just a result of more and more people poking fun at it and readers interpreting that as Scart = bad?

Again, if you're happy with your setup, why move away from it?


Last edited by PixelPhoenix on Sat May 22, 2021 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 5:14 pm 



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PixelPhoenix wrote:
This is what fueled my transition. When I picked up RGB cables years ago, I was uncomfortable with the idea of managing Component and Scart at the same time. I had the Gamecube and OG Xbox already running Component, and I told myself that alternating between a Scart and Component switcher would be an annoyance that I'd have to put up with. I like to keep the chain simple and short with as little conversion/routing as possible. Initially, I didn't care.


Yeah, initially it's hard to measure how annoying things can get with a mixed setup, especially after you get to experience the comfort of automatic or minimal intervention setups. I actually went the opposite route and got RGB solutions for Gamecube/Wii/Xbox etc to unify around RGB.

I only switched away from SCART due to not being happy about it indeed, mainly how easy it is for SCART headers to become disconnected, especially combined with the heft and rigidity of coax cabling. About 3 years after switching to a full DE15 RGB setup, I've never had a single regret. Staying with RGB does mean having to be careful about sync methods, capacitors, etc. on cables, but that should be a one-time procedure when buying cables initially, then you can just forget about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 7:05 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
I actually went the opposite route and got RGB solutions for Gamecube/Wii/Xbox etc to unify around RGB.


I have one reservation about Scart (specifically RGB) on with Xbox (Conexant CX25871 and Focus FS454, this doesn't apply to Xcalibur). I'd love to have someone else verify but it's not as easy as I'd hope.

First, RGB input is converted to YCrCr, and color components (Cb/Cr) are sumbsampled to half in the horizontal direction, which gives you a 4:2:2 signal. After that, it's scaled to 720x480 or 720x576, ignoring the original resolution and applies a flicker filter - reducing sharpness.

But, that's not all. With Scart, sync is taken from the composite signal, and the Xbox ends up producing a composite signal next to RGB. But to meet bandwidth limitations required for composite video, color components are massively low-pass filtered, resulting in <1.5 MHz bandwidth at -3dB. Conexant and Focus encoders can't tap the signal before that filtering occurs, which means your RGB output is lowered to a composite bandwidth.

At least, that's my understanding of it.

You could use Scart with a Xcalibur Xbox, but then you're doing so without access to 480p, and even if you have a cable qualified to do so, you'll get a garbled image of certain games at 480p because it's an Xcalibur Xbox, and a clock capacitor that needs replacing rather than removing.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 7:38 pm 



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I should clarify that my "RGB" solution for the Xbox was to use an Xbox 360 with the hacked original Xbox emulator. The HDMI with a DAC can produce clean 480p RGB output, though when I actually want to play original Xbox titles in 480i I use a Microsoft component cable, and break it "out" into a DE15 adapter for my Extron VGA switch, which can take YPbPr inputs as well. Alternatively the VGA cable can be modified for 15khz RGBHV.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 8:51 pm 


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My switch to Component was a combination of a few factors:

1) The SCART cabling that I had was decent quality, but not top-end stuff. The upgrade to component was, for the most part, a quality upgrade in the cabling, which went mostly from cabling with only a shield on the bundle to component cables using coax (HDRV cables)

2) I had a mixed setup, which was causing some annoyances. Most consoles were RGB, a few were component, and I wanted to standardize on one of the two. Though I should note that automatic mixed setups work fine, just connect all RGB consoles to a gscartsw, all YPbPr consoles to a gcompsw, pick one as the primary, and put a COMP2RGB or RGB2COMP between them. Everything should still work with automatic switching.

3) I'm literally a component cable retailer and was buying from myself. There are some obvious cost savings here, but to be honest the larger factor was probably just being able to walk a few feet and grab whatever cables I needed from inventory without having to wait for shipping.

It's not been a perfect transition, however. I've encountered two issues with this conversion:

1) My PVM (14L2) applies an LPF filter that ironically oversharpens the image and results in ringing artifacts. This LPF can be disabled in the service menu, but it is one of the few settings that are *not* saved to nvram and is lost when you change inputs or power cycle the monitor. As such I've unfortunately got a COMP2RGB installed there. I'm wondering if buying the BKM-129x replacement board might help with this, but it doesn't seem to do colour space conversion itself, so I might still be subject to the PVM's LPF.

2) My NES used the terrible stock NESRGB mini din connector. I redid the NESRGB install to prepare for something that can accept a Nintendo AV connector to use with HDRV cabling (much cleaner install now), but never got around to wiring a connector up. I'm probably going to try installing an NESIO, but missed out on The Real Phoenix's most recent production run.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2021 3:10 am 


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I'm of a similar mind. I mainly wanted to unify my consoles under one cabling method. For a while, I considered Scart, but ultimately decided against it because, at the time, there weren't any decent quality Scart solutions for 6th gen consoles. Eventually they started showing up and I had already started the transition to component - oh well.

Honestly, we're fortunate to even have the option to do either with such incredible quality control and numerous distributors. Bit of a shame that supply would take such a hit in 2020 during the height of a resurgence.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 2:00 am 


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Then there's no difference in picture quality between CSync Scart and Component. Good to know.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:19 am 


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I just want to be sure, there’s no real difference between HD Retrovision Component Cables and Retro Gaming Cables C-Sync RGB Scart cables when it comes to picture and audio quality?


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:02 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
RGB isn't theoretically better than YPbPr, it's just a different way of communicating the image. A bunch of consoles like the Gamecube work as YCbCr internally, and most scalers do their work in YCbCr too. So if you're connecting your RGB consoles to a Framemeister, OSSC, RT5X, etc. the signal is being converted to YPbPr/YCbCr for processing anyhow. Unless you're going directly from a console to an RGB monitor without any processing in between, you're probably actually converting to component and just don't realize it.

With component, everything always just works. There is no worry about sync types or sync voltages or sync strippers, you don't need to worry about what resistors or capacitors you put on what pins to make up for missing things in the console-end. You just plug the component cables in and it just works.

If you've figured out all the potential issues with an RGB or SCART setup, and you've matched all the right cable types to the right consoles, and all that jazz, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that setup. It'll work just fine.


I don't use upscalers so upscaling to YCbCr / saving bandwidth doesn't apply to me. RGB better in theory:

-Native video format of CRTs
-3 color channels instead of 2 and doesn't use matrix math or inverters to convert between 3 and 2
-No gamma correction issues and no need or even ability to adjust color, saturation or hue for component errors
-No NTSC vs PAL distinction, which were 1950s standards to send audio + video with minimal bandwidth without killing off black & white
-NTSC is worse than PAL due smaller bandwidth and lacking PAL's hue error correction. PAL has awful 50 Hz conversions so you lose either way.
-PS2 RGB looks better than component to me. Could quote Fudoh that PS2's component is blurry but that's kind of the point.
-I need to be more scientific here but SMPTE component on PS1 games played on PS2 have inaccurate colors. I believe due to component's 714 mV max luma versus 700 mV for rest of analog.

I'm not using sync separate from luma as an argument since the weakness of RGB is sync hell, which comes in several different flavors. Right, component just WORKS and you can't screw it up. My 1-Chip SNES will do composite video as sync but not csync for my E1S and I can't get the last screw off to check if issue is sync line on console or multiout or both.

I could imagine a case of component looking better due to using thicker cables by not being bound inside a VGA or SCART jacket, SCART also having audio crosstalk potential. I'm setting up to test RGB over BNC vs VGA and JP-21 for this reason.

GameCube being YCbCr internally is something I wasn't sure of so thanks for confirming. Post-NES and pre-digital video output, is everything else RGB internally?

But yeah, I agree with mikechi2 that RGB is only slightly better. Getting that slight edge in the US with almost zero consumer TVs carrying analog RGB drives people to madness. Entire retro-industrial complex built around it.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:24 pm 


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Odolwa wrote:
I just want to be sure, there’s no real difference between HD Retrovision Component Cables and Retro Gaming Cables C-Sync RGB Scart cables when it comes to picture and audio quality?


One Reddit poster told me HD Retrovision looks better than s-video and a little worse than RGB. I want to test this. Unlike other cable testers, I know how to use an oscilloscope in the frequency domain.

Can a kind soul let me borrow their HD Retrovision Component Cable for a week? SCART and SCART -> BNC too if you don't want the comparison against my JP-21 cables? Do you want to hold one of my official Sony cables as collateral? I'll pay shipping both ways.

Transcoding RGB to Component isn't a perfect process and adds noise to the signal. I don't have PAL SNES so going RGB -> NTSC that is made fun of for "never the same color twice".

Too bad the only comparison pic on HD Retrovision website is their cable vs naturally blurry composite with no context. Debate is if the added distortion is too small to notice without zooming x9000 on a $2000 BVM with $2000 BKM-68x card and I have neither.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:14 pm 


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That's because the HDRV cables are, from a market standpoint, competing with composite, not RGB. Or at least that was the original goal, as pretty much all TVs still had component inputs when the cables were introduced, while no TVs (in North America) had RGB inputs.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:03 pm 



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NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
Transcoding RGB to Component isn't a perfect process and adds noise to the signal. I don't have PAL SNES so going RGB -> NTSC that is made fun of for "never the same color twice".

Too bad the only comparison pic on HD Retrovision website is their cable vs naturally blurry composite with no context. Debate is if the added distortion is too small to notice without zooming x9000 on a $2000 BVM with $2000 BKM-68x card and I have neither.


RGB to YPbPr can be a virtually lossless conversion, at least on some professional-grade equipment, though sadly most of it cannot work with 240p properly. It would definitely be interesting to see rigorous analysis and comparison of the available hobbyist options like the HDRetrovision cables.

And BTW, the 68X card is no longer $2000+ now that the clones/alternative cards are available :wink: Though you'd be much more likely to spot differences with the image scaled on a flat panel than on the most advance CRT you can find.


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 Post subject: Re: Component vs Scart
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:05 am 


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NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
Odolwa wrote:
I just want to be sure, there’s no real difference between HD Retrovision Component Cables and Retro Gaming Cables C-Sync RGB Scart cables when it comes to picture and audio quality?


One Reddit poster told me HD Retrovision looks better than s-video and a little worse than RGB. I want to test this. Unlike other cable testers, I know how to use an oscilloscope in the frequency domain.

On my RGB modded JVC D-series the HDRV and RGB are virtually identical


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