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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:35 am 


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Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 655
Location: Singapore
Odolwa wrote:
This coupler was made for the OSSC and it's the one I'm asking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apJbftgeTmg
https://castlemaniagames.com/products/r ... 9_zngec1o_

Ok so that's the same that I bought : https://www.retroupgrades.co.uk/product ... t-coupler/

Bob does indeed say in his video it's been designed to accomodate an OSSC on top when used on a gScartSw so that there's enough clearance for other SCART cables on either side of it.

But functionally it will work with any SCART capable equipment, as I said.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:44 am 


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Thanks Mike! I plan on testing the 540p FW this afternoon. I have a TS w/ component converter to feed the 5X and several systems ready to go.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:22 pm 



Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 72
Great work Mike! Can't wait to see how this turns out. I give all you testers the day off work. Just tell your boss a random dude on Shmups told you. I'm sure they'll be cool with it ;).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:36 pm 



Joined: 06 Feb 2021
Posts: 11
Would it be possible for the RetroTINK 5X to smartly auto-select the H. Sampling? This would greatly benefit the Neo Geo AES since a TV might not display anything from the 5X unless "NEOGEO 320" is selected. This would also be cool for consoles like the PS1 and Saturn that have multiple H. Sampling profiles (e.g. just one "PS1" H. Sampling profile that switches between 256 and 320 automatically).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:02 am 


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Completed preliminary testing of the new 540p FW from Mike on my HS420. I'll post some pics later but for now I'll get to the gist of it. It works. I ran into a few issues but I believe all of them are related to my particular set (if someone else has a 36" HS420 I'd love for them to try it). I first tried the 540p mode on my 32" LG QHD monitor, and it worked great. Tried it via direct HDMI on my HS420 and no banana. This didnt surprise me though, I believe my set has some kind of issue on the HDMI port. It only accepts (if I recall) 480i, 480p,720p, and 1080i-- and the 480p is "jumpy" as if its about to lose sync or something. Going into the YPbPr ports and everything works, so thats what I did.

I had the Portta HDMI to component converter that Fudoh recommended so I fed that from the 5X and went into the set with component. Worked like a charm. Was able to adjust in the svc menu to get perfect screen filling goodness on both Sega Genesis and GCN. No visual anomalies, no issues going that route. Only thing I couldnt do is lag test with the TS because I had no way to chain it through the 5X to get the component out that my TV would accept, which is disappointing, but I can say that both GCN and Genesis felt absolutely lag free in frame locked mode. Im sure the obligatory 2ms-4ms of lag from the 5X was there, but lets be honest, thats essentially zero lag in real world applications.

Below are some pics of FZero GX and Sonic 2 that I took. The first pics are unscaled, ie how the 480p image fits in the 540p frame, the close ups are after having filled the screen through the service menu, and last of course are the full screen shots. Note that I actually still had a bit more stretching ability in the menu than what is shown here, but this is what I settled on during this quick testing. Looking forward to someone whose set will accept the HDMI signal, it pisses me off that mine doesnt. I bet theres something wrong with the HDMI port/circuitry on my set. Also, my set shut off on me several times, I dont think its ever done that before, but I used a different power strip to power it this time and Im sure its either an issue with that or the set needs some TLC. I will test more later.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:50 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1669
Josh128 wrote:
Looking forward to someone whose set will accept the HDMI signal, it pisses me off that mine doesnt. I bet theres something wrong with the HDMI port/circuitry on my set.


I don't think it's your set, but rather the HDMI input on those HD CRTs is very strict about only accepting standard TV signals. I remember that it was only able to display the OSSC's 2X mode, but nothing else. It also won't display PC resolutions obviously. It's great that this 540p mode has been implemented, but these TVs (as well as multiformat monitors) would benefit a lot more from an actual standard 1080i output from the 5X.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:02 am 


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Vol 2 swears that his set displays 540p via the HDMI / DVI in port if you just send it any ~33.75KHz resolution though. In any case, the Portta converter I used is a straight DAC and is lagless and produces a flawless image for $20. So with this FW, the RT5X just made these near useless sets a lot more interesting. I do agree that having the 1080i option would be nice too. Im not exactly sure how it would look in practice but it would definitely help with compatibility if someone has a finicky HDMI port set like mine and doesnt want or know about the Portta DAC. I still think theres an issue with mine as 480p is jumpy via HDMI and does the weird scaling shit while 480p via component is rock solid and scales perfectly.

That said, the component-fed 540p image was flawless in stills and in motion from what I could see. I just wish I was able to use the TS to verify the lag, even though I know its 0 + the 5X lag (~4ms).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:11 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
It only accepts (if I recall) 480i, 480p,720p, and 1080i-- and the 480p is "jumpy" as if its about to lose sync or something. Going into the YPbPr ports and everything works, so thats what I did.



Using YPbPr is less than ideal because it sends all of the analog signals to a secondary ADC before sending it to the DCR. I believe that it forces the DCR to "ON" in this case, so you will also be getting the DCR filtering.

One questions:

Did you turn on HDPT (High Definition Pass-Through) and JUMP (turns off 16:9 vertical compression)? I'm assuming you did both of these things because your picture is not squished, although HDPT might get disabled when you use analog inputs. I think the jury is still out on that one.

Comments:

The service menu shows that the 540p signal was indeed detected as 1080I, which is absolutely correct. The TV has no way to differentiate 540p from 1080i, and will just display it because they are the same timings.

I don't have a HDCRT with an HDMI, mine has a DVI input, but I never had issues displaying 540p from CRTEmudriver or a Raspberry Pi. It's always just worked.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:27 am 


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It certainly felt lagless. As I tested here, component vs HDMI lag does not change for 480i,480p,720p at least. I wasnt able to test the 1080i because the GBS-C doesnt currently output that resolution.

That said, the only way to get a definitive answer is to get a second Portta DAC and go TS>Portta>5X Pro>Portta>HS420 Component in. I got a second one coming. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:34 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
Completed preliminary testing of the new 540p FW from Mike on my HS420. I'll post some pics later but for now I'll get to the gist of it. It works. I ran into a few issues but I believe all of them are related to my particular set (if someone else has a 36" HS420 I'd love for them to try it). I first tried the 540p mode on my 32" LG QHD monitor, and it worked great. Tried it via direct HDMI on my HS420 and no banana. This didnt surprise me though, I believe my set has some kind of issue on the HDMI port. It only accepts (if I recall) 480i, 480p,720p, and 1080i-- and the 480p is "jumpy" as if its about to lose sync or something. Going into the YPbPr ports and everything works, so thats what I did.

I had the Portta HDMI to component converter that Fudoh recommended so I fed that from the 5X and went into the set with component. Worked like a charm. Was able to adjust in the svc menu to get perfect screen filling goodness on both Sega Genesis and GCN. No visual anomalies, no issues going that route. Only thing I couldnt do is lag test with the TS because I had no way to chain it through the 5X to get the component out that my TV would accept, which is disappointing, but I can say that both GCN and Genesis felt absolutely lag free in frame locked mode. Im sure the obligatory 2ms-4ms of lag from the 5X was there, but lets be honest, thats essentially zero lag in real world applications.

Below are some pics of FZero GX and Sonic 2 that I took. The first pics are unscaled, ie how the 480p image fits in the 540p frame, the close ups are after having filled the screen through the service menu, and last of course are the full screen shots. Note that I actually still had a bit more stretching ability in the menu than what is shown here, but this is what I settled on during this quick testing. Looking forward to someone whose set will accept the HDMI signal, it pisses me off that mine doesnt. I bet theres something wrong with the HDMI port/circuitry on my set. Also, my set shut off on me several times, I dont think its ever done that before, but I used a different power strip to power it this time and Im sure its either an issue with that or the set needs some TLC. I will test more later.

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That’s awesome news. I have an alarm set to 9am tomorrow.. I hope I can join you in testing soon on my HD Trinitron..

Thanks for sharing. Do you know if the scanlines stayed proper with the raster stretch service adjustments?
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:11 am 



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Posts: 72
So the set different fill the screen automagically like it does when you feed it a 1080i source? You have to make adjustments in the service menu? For what it's worth, I did find this post on Reddit with some #'s testing component vs hdmi:

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... g_results/

I have that same set so if I can get a RT5x tomorrow I should be able to give it a test here soon.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:41 am 


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Awesome results Josh! I’m hoping to be able to test this mode out as well and share any input I can. Have a bunch of systems to try too. I’m setting my alarm to wake up at 11am est so I can order a 5x tomorrow. Really hope I can get one…

Edit: looks like it set to 16:9 in the f-zero screen. Can that be changed in SM?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:35 pm 


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Hoagtech wrote:
That’s awesome news. I have an alarm set to 9am tomorrow.. I hope I can join you in testing soon on my HD Trinitron..

Thanks for sharing. Do you know if the scanlines stayed proper with the raster stretch service adjustments?


Yes, scanlines stayed perfectly even with the adjustments I used. Note that the issue with the uneven scanlines a while back was solely due to some strange scaling applied by the set when using 480p into the HDMI port. When going into the component ports, both 480p and 540p scanlines were perfectly uniform.

PearlJammzz wrote:
So the set different fill the screen automagically like it does when you feed it a 1080i source? You have to make adjustments in the service menu? For what it's worth, I did find this post on Reddit with some #'s testing component vs hdmi:

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... g_results/

I have that same set so if I can get a RT5x tomorrow I should be able to give it a test here soon.


The screen is already full, its just that this mode draws 480p into a 540p frame, hence the centered picture and large top and side borders. So yes, to get the game image full screen you must enter the svc menu and adjust hori and vert size and positions. While the lag numbers from that reddit post are higher than what I tested, it seems to indicate that the HDPT zero lag mode works whether using component or HDMI. I'll know for sure as soon as my second Portta DAC arrives.

incrediblehark wrote:
Awesome results Josh! I’m hoping to be able to test this mode out as well and share any input I can. Have a bunch of systems to try too. I’m setting my alarm to wake up at 11am est so I can order a 5x tomorrow. Really hope I can get one…

Edit: looks like it set to 16:9 in the f-zero screen. Can that be changed in SM?


You are correct, the unstretched 540p image does appear to be closer to 16:9 than 4:3 (I measured the ratios using paint.net), but thats of no consequence because you will need to adjust the raster in the svc menu regardless to fill the screen.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:26 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:

You are correct, the unstretched 540p image does appear to be closer to 16:9 than 4:3 (I measured the ratios using paint.net), but thats of no consequence because you will need to adjust the raster in the svc menu regardless to fill the screen.


Sorry, just to confirm, did you turn on "JUMP" in the service menu?

That's the item responsible for the 16:9 compression. The default has it set to vertically compress the image, so you have to change the default to remove the compression when the set sees a 1080i signal.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:37 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
Josh128 wrote:

You are correct, the unstretched 540p image does appear to be closer to 16:9 than 4:3 (I measured the ratios using paint.net), but thats of no consequence because you will need to adjust the raster in the svc menu regardless to fill the screen.


Sorry, just to confirm, did you turn on "JUMP" in the service menu?

That's the item responsible for the 16:9 compression. The default has it set to vertically compress the image, so you have to change the default to remove the compression when the set sees a 1080i signal.


I dont remember specifically. There was a setting that gave an instant boost to vertical height that I did turn on, but I cant tell you if it was JUMP. I did have to use whatever option that was to get full vertical height though, as VSIZ alone wasnt enough. The centered shots that appear 16:9 were indeed taken before I touched anything in the SM though, so take what you will from that.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:14 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:

I dont remember specifically. There was a setting that gave an instant boost to vertical height that I did turn on, but I cant tell you if it was JUMP. I did have to use whatever option that was to get full vertical height though, as VSIZ alone wasnt enough. The centered shots that appear 16:9 were indeed taken before I touched anything in the SM though, so take what you will from that.


That's more or less what I thought. It's JUMP on the HS510 for sure.

I asked for confirmation only because you wrote:
Quote:
You are correct, the unstretched 540p image does appear to be closer to 16:9 than 4:3


But the initial ratio shouldn't come out as 16:9. It's just squished because you are getting 480 inside of a 540 box, it would be closer to a 1.5 ratio. (640/420)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:57 pm 


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I’m awake. And hitting F5 like a madman for the next hour. Just be be a million percent sure. This sale is happening on the minute 9 am PST on Retrotink.com correct?
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:14 pm 


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Same here! Hoping we all get one today.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:08 pm 


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Yay! I got one.

The site crashed on me twice and then declined my first payment but I got through at 9:04 PST.

This is the best day of my life lol !
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:59 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
Mannn, I gotta lug my busted KD-34XBR960 out of my room and get another 16:9 HDCRT - I do have my 34” Sampo monitor that can do 720p and stuff (just use a HDMI to VGA and letterbox geometry with the remote), but there’s something special about some of those dang 16:9 consumer HDCRTs!



I don't think the 16:9 models are going to benefit here. The mission was to get a good 480p in 540p 4:3 and a 960i in 1080i 4:3 centered timings preset. The 16:9 models (AFAIK) work in a completely different way. I don't even think you can switch off the DCR on those, and if you did, the geometry would be nuts to correct for. On top of that, they are absolutely terrible and all break. I remember seeing the 16:9 Sony in Circuit City in Union Square progressively get worse and worse geometry over the course of about 2 months as a display unit. They didn't even bother replacing it because I guess no one was buying them.

Avoid at all costs (unless you just want a museum piece).

Quote:
they are rare but obtainable if I can pay out the shipping


They are heavy as fuck, so you should be able to find one for cheap/free in local paper listings or craigslist. I do think they look pretty good with PS2 480p, and I think the DCR actually can improve the awful wii 480p mode games, but I am looking forward to an easy way to play them with DCR switched off



I’m gonna try 540p on my Sony KV-34XBR910 Super Fine Pitch 16:9.

I thought all these tvs from this era were generally 540 vertical. I think the Super fine pitch is 1401 x 540 native.

It gave me the option to choose aspect in 480p mode so I’m hoping this would be a good fit as well to squeeze in the Xbox 360 generation, maybe even PS5 1080i..

If not I bought the retrotink 5x pro for 4:3 my Sony Trinitron KV-32HS510.

It would be awesome if I could get both aspect ratio’s rocking with the 5x Pro
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:09 pm 


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Got one too! And just got the shipping notification. Really looking forward to playing with this and sharing some pics which this thread needs more of :wink:

Pm incoming to request the 540p firmware. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:34 pm 


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Glad some people here got one and glad it sold out so quickly so I couldn't impulse buy it lol


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:44 pm 



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Are there any alternatives to passing a ~33.75khz signal while only sending ~31.5khz image? Basically a way to trick the TV into stretching (probably the wrong term?) the image full-screen. Any way to adjust the signal so we won't have to go into the service menu and make adjustments to zoom the picture in? Or is there really only one way of going about sending the signal and the smaller image is something we can't get around?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:41 pm 


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I dont think so, but dont be afraid, the service menu on these HS and XBR sets is very well documented, and nothing you change saves until you hit "muting", then "enter", so its not nearly as dangerous as some people claim. The HDPT MUST be changed because otherwise you lose the very treasure we are seeking, which is zero input lag from the TV.

The changes that need to be made are really only the HDPT, VSIZ, VPOS, HSIZ,HPOS, JUMP (or its equivalent), and maybe a few geometry tweaks if you need. Its very, very easy if you have a working remote. If you dont have a remote, then you cant enter the service menu. An alternative option is to just use 480p out and you'll have 1 frame of lag + ~4ms or so if you use framelock on the 5X, or you could just go with a GBS-C for a lot cheaper, with the same frame of lag but amazing results in its own right.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:51 am 



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Josh128 wrote:
You are correct, the unstretched 540p image does appear to be closer to 16:9 than 4:3 (I measured the ratios using paint.net), but thats of no consequence because you will need to adjust the raster in the svc menu regardless to fill the screen.


The F-zero GX aspect ratio (when not set to display widescreen mode using the in game settings) is not exactly 4:3 to begin with https://i.imgur.com/mXDIgeE_d.webp?maxw ... lity=grand


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:12 pm 



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And predictably there's a 5x on ebay uk for 650gbp (that's $900) - go go gadget scalpers.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:51 am 


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Does the Retrotink5X do 4:4:4 color sampling?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:39 am 


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Partially.
By default it does 4:2:2, but 4:4:4 was introduced for some of the optimal modes in the latest (v1.55) firmware :
https://www.retrotink.com/post/retrotin ... re-updates

You can read more about it here :
https://www.retrorgb.com/retrotink-5x-f ... -v155.html
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:16 am 


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Fudoh's comment on the 4:2:2 processing for reference:

Quote:
I will also be outing myself by saying that I wasn't the biggest fan of the previous Retrotink line doublers. I do honor them for what they try to achieve and for some people they represent a perfect solution to a problem that not everbody really wants to deal with in the first place. They serve their purpose as "fire and forget" units. What bothered me about them (and compared to even the classic XRGB units) is their lossy 4:2:2 processing path, which hurts the quality considerably compared to using an OSSC (even with limiting the OSSC's output to 480p to make it a fairer comparison). The 5X internally isn't a full 4:4:4 machine either, but Mike did a tremendous job masking all the problems coming from that. 99% of the users won't notice it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:03 pm 


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IIRC even when working in 4:2:2 it works hard to align the subsampled channels so that they look very close to 4:4:4 anyway.


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