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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:01 pm 


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Joined: 20 Aug 2016
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That leads into something I mentioned in another thread just now.

There are almost no "all analog" transcoders available that will accept analog, transcode, and output analog without damaging the signal using a "generic" ADC sampling step (before processing). It would be nice to have a new and widely available option to properly sample, transcode, and standardise all signals to a single standard (RGB or component)--and be able to split that signal for both CRTs and feeding a video scaler. It would be nice to tackle color processing in this initial step as well.

If it was capable, I would use two Morph machines. One Morph would receive everything from the matrix and feed back analog back in to the switch. The other Morph would accept the transcoded signal (after the switch) and feed HDMI to the HDMI switch.
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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:04 pm 


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I don't think that's true. For example, the TI LMH1251 that all YPbPr-to-RGB transcoders use is a fully analog transcoding chip. I'm not sure what chip is used in the opposite direction, though. EDIT: Confirmed by Mike that both directions are fully analog.


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:00 am 


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Fantastic to know. I want to replace as much vintage equipment as possible in the near future.
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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:02 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
I don't think that's true. For example, the TI LMH1251 that all YPbPr-to-RGB transcoders use is a fully analog transcoding chip. I'm not sure what chip is used in the opposite direction, though. EDIT: Confirmed by Mike that both directions are fully analog.


yes rgb to ypbpr and vice versa is all analog, even to s-video and composite. rgb to ypbpr is made by op-amp circuit which depends on op-amp chosen based on bandwidth.

I didn't see LMH1251 before this but you can use a suitable op-amp to do ypbpr to rgb... since it is just matrix operations from one side to the other... opamp uses resistor with its configurations to be able to do the proper calculation and output. LMH1251 seems to have all opamp circuitry inside, i didn't check but this seems the way.


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:21 am 


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VEGETA wrote:
yes rgb to ypbpr and vice versa is all analog, even to s-video and composite. rgb to ypbpr is made by op-amp circuit which depends on op-amp chosen based on bandwidth.

I didn't see LMH1251 before this but you can use a suitable op-amp to do ypbpr to rgb... since it is just matrix operations from one side to the other... opamp uses resistor with its configurations to be able to do the proper calculation and output. LMH1251 seems to have all opamp circuitry inside, i didn't check but this seems the way.


So if its just color matrix conversion there isn't a real improvement in the signal?
And for composite or Y/C input I suppose there is another analog chip

and if all the processing is analog for the RGB out, that means for having HDMI and RGB at the same time the signal must be splited (it introduce reduction of the signal strength) or being sampled digitally for having 2 identical copy but then it isn't full analog

And it made me think, if the chain is all analog there isn't any tbc cause all tbc are digital iirc ? (for rgb out)


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:11 pm 


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vrunk11 wrote:
VEGETA wrote:

that means for having HDMI and RGB at the same time the signal must be splited (it introduce reduction of the signal strength)


This is not true as the analog signal can easily be amplified before or after being split to avoid reduction of signal strength in the output. It could also be switched to only allow for 1 output at a time to be active and that would also resolve the issue of reduction of signal strength. Its all in how a particular unit is designed.


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:53 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 203
Any plans for YC or even YPbPr over SCART? S-video over SCART is part of the official EN 50049-1:1997 spec and looks to be used by things like PAL S-VHS decks? Component over SCART wasn't official, but looks to have been a de facto casual spec that a some later hardware supported?

fernan1234 wrote:
What we can know is that many professional monitors including Sony made ones used P-22 phosphors up to the 1990s at least, while there were also EBU ones later on as well mainly on non-Sony monitors like Victor/JVC and Ikegami, but a few older Sony ones as well. Sony as the industry leader itself switched to SMPTE-C for pro monitors sold in Japan in the mid/late 1990s up to their last CRTs in the mid 2000s.
edit: not so sure about the chronology here, it does look like there were times when these and other phosphor types co-existed in the Japanese market.

Looking at some random tube part numbers, it looks like Japan may indeed have been P22 land consumer-side, at least until HDTV CRTs arrived? Pro-side, PVMs were P22 up until HDTV development started, then the PVM/BVM manufacturers started putting in SMPTE C tubes in all the pro monitors with some being EBU?

https://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/CRT_designation_systems
https://forums.libretro.com/t/new-crt-shader-from-guest-crt-guest-advanced-updates/25444
https://forums.libretro.com/t/dogways-grading-shader-slang/27148

Over in more modern BT.709 land, looking like BT.1886 is the way to go according to the SpectraCal guys:
https://kb.portrait.com/help/bt-1886-10-questions-10-answers

Given how many people are using PC monitors vs TVs, I assume being able to switch the output side between PC sRGB and TV BT.709 w/ BT.1886 would be the way to go?

fernan1234 wrote:
This whole idea sounded funny to think about for a moment, but then I realized how much gaming and streaming is growing, and although retro is a small subset of that, it's actually not inconceivable that there can be a large enough professional space for it at some point down the road.

Not only that, but the video archival guys as well. TBCs and proc amps are a big deal in this space with desirable legacy models getting rare and expensive (check Ebay prices on a AVT-8710 or TBC-1000 and prepare to laugh/cry...). Ensemble Designs' BrightEye series, specifically models like the BrightEye 75, see to be the go-to in this space if you're doing pro-level work, but prices are impressive, like up in the $1400 range.

https://www.ensembledesigns.com/products/brighteye/be75
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... gital.html


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:23 pm 



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energizerfellow‌ wrote:
Looking at some random tube part numbers, it looks like Japan may indeed have been P22 land consumer-side, at least until HDTV CRTs arrived? Pro-side, PVMs were P22 up until HDTV development started, then the PVM/BVM manufacturers started putting in SMPTE C tubes in all the pro monitors with some being EBU?


Not just on the consumer side, but also on the work and professional areas as well. It looks like most PC monitors for office use up to the end of mass usage of CRTs used P-22 phosphors, and even some late professional grade monitors that used Diamontron tubes also used P-22 phosphors. Sony offering SMPTE-C and EBU emulation on their post-CRT monitors seems to be simply a result of them having used those for their later pro CRTs and thus maintaining continuity for their professional customers.


energizerfellow‌ wrote:
Given how many people are using PC monitors vs TVs, I assume being able to switch the output side between PC sRGB and TV BT.709 w/ BT.1886 would be the way to go?


BT.1886 is a good choice for consistency, and it does approximate CRT gamma more than others. Non-CRT Sony pro monitors (at least the BVM line from the old L-series up to the E251/E171, not sure about the X300) did offer an actual "CRT gamma" emulation along with the HD gamma options that include BT.1886. I wonder if it would be possible to calculate the curve that Sony is using on those and port it to a device like the Morph.

energizerfellow‌ wrote:
Not only that, but the video archival guys as well. TBCs and proc amps are a big deal in this space with desirable legacy models getting rare and expensive (check Ebay prices on a AVT-8710 or TBC-1000 and prepare to laugh/cry...). Ensemble Designs' BrightEye series, specifically models like the BrightEye 75, see to be the go-to in this space if you're doing pro-level work, but prices are impressive, like up in the $1400 range.


That's interesting. I think there can definitely be space for a PixelFX Morph (literally) Pro.


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:35 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
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fernan1234 wrote:
It looks like most PC monitors for office use up to the end of mass usage of CRTs used P-22 phosphors, and even some late professional grade monitors that used Diamontron tubes also used P-22 phosphors.

That may explain why Mitsubishi Diamondtron monitors seemed so popular with game studios back in the day, along with the occasional NEC Cromaclear or EIZO. Smaller JVC/Panasonic consumer TVs sitting next to those Mitsubishi monitors seemed pretty common too, probably to get a consumer shadow mask reference I'd imagine.

fernan1234 wrote:
BT.1886 is a good choice for consistency, and it does approximate CRT gamma more than others. Non-CRT Sony pro monitors (at least the BVM line from the old L-series up to the E251/E171, not sure about the X300) did offer an actual "CRT gamma" emulation along with the HD gamma options that include BT.1886. I wonder if it would be possible to calculate the curve that Sony is using on those and port it to a device like the Morph.

Reverse engineering that would be pretty cool. On a related note, I stumbled across Reconsideration of CRT Monitor Characteristics, which Sony put out back when sRGB was then-new. Given the variances in P22 and the contemporaneous tube technology notes in EBU Tech 3213, it would seem that EBU and P22/B22 may have been effectively interchangeable back in the day? A number of vintage color tools seem to use "P22-EBU" as one word, which is interesting. BT.709, sRGB, and PAL BT.601 all use the same primaries too (with subtle change in green for 601).


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:28 pm 


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You know what else you could do with a LUT? Create a "night mode" where you strip out specific frequencies of blue/green so you can game all night and still reach deep sleep. BAMMO!!


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:12 pm 


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HDgaming42 wrote:
You know what else you could do with a LUT? Create a "night mode" where you strip out specific frequencies of blue/green so you can game all night and still reach deep sleep. BAMMO!!


Seconding this idea!


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:12 am 



Joined: 17 Jan 2017
Posts: 178
Will the Pixel FX Morph support 1920x1080p @100/120Hz like the OSSC Pro? This would be a killer feature for LG CX/GX and C1/G1 owners. Allowing for CRT like motion through OLED Motion Pro set to high.

How about ALLM and VRR support?

Will it be possible to scale through the HDMI output and passthrough on the D-Sub at the same time?

Can we still expect the Pixel FX Morph this year?


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:53 pm 


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Wouldn't that double-scan the image, to do BFI at 240Hz?


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:46 pm 


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H6rdc0re wrote:
Will it be possible to scale through the HDMI output and passthrough on the D-Sub at the same time?


Confirmed in a couple places by Woozle to do simultaneous analog passthrough and scaled digital output. Great for anyone playing on a CRT and streaming, though I wonder how big that audience is lol.


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 Post subject: Re: PixelFX Morph
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:07 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
Wouldn't that double-scan the image, to do BFI at 240Hz?


The output signal should be 100/120Hz and the TV will do the rest.


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