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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:35 pm 


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Tempest_2084 wrote:
I thought the 240p ones looked squished, but the pixelation was so much better.

Here are three more pictures that I didn't scale so they're huge. In the first one you can the weird artifacts around the Konami logo and same with the text on the file select screen. The third one is of the game in action and honestly it doesn't look bad, but I wonder if it's correct. It's so hard to tell because GBA games really shouldn't be blown up to 40" :)

http://atariprotos.com/temp/konami.jpg
http://atariprotos.com/temp/360p_3.jpg
http://atariprotos.com/temp/360p_4.jpg

If it is some sort of sampling issue, I can't fix it on my end. I tried all the modes and it's all the same.



Other than the moire that shows up in the 3rd photo, the sampling looks correct to me.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:56 pm 


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This is what the Konami logo looks like in an emulator with integer scaling:

Image

This looks identical to your GBI RT5X output to me (barring possibly some colour differences that could be caused by your GBI LUT settings or your TV), so as far as I can tell, 360p looks perfect in all of your screenshots... You keep saying it looks pixelated, but... isn't that how it's supposed to look? The gameboy is very low resolution, the GBA is 160p, and the original is just 144p.

It looks like you might have turned on scanlines, hard to tell, you should turn those off as the GBA was never intended to be on a CRT, and it looks like they might be misaligned on the RT5X.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:19 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
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I think the low resolution GBA output scaled with sharp pixels on a large screen can be shocking, haha.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:29 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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That's why GB and GBA titles really benefit from a "grid" pixel filter like this:

largish pic:

Spoiler: show
Image


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:31 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
This is what the Konami logo looks like in an emulator with integer scaling:

Image

This looks identical to your GBI RT5X output to me (barring possibly some colour differences that could be caused by your GBI LUT settings or your TV), so as far as I can tell, 360p looks perfect in all of your screenshots... You keep saying it looks pixelated, but... isn't that how it's supposed to look? The gameboy is very low resolution, the GBA is 160p, and the original is just 144p.

It looks like you might have turned on scanlines, hard to tell, you should turn those off as the GBA was never intended to be on a CRT, and it looks like they might be misaligned on the RT5X.


Huh, ok. I stand corrected then, the 360p mode is working as intended. :)

Yes I had 25% scanlines on, I'll turn those off.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:51 pm 



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Hi everyone, just registered to be able to ask a few questions 8)

1) Is the Retrotink5x likely to fix the SNES jitter problems I'm currently experiencing with OSSC on my Sony tv?
2) I read about possible MVS problems on the RT5X page, but assume this won't be a problem when a DFO is installed?
3) Any options available (like a mask, or setting h/v.active) to hide the unwanted Mega Drive garbage from the screen? Or to horizontally shift the image if a game isn't properly centered?

Thanks, Bart.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:24 pm 



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bmp02 wrote:
Hi everyone, just registered to be able to ask a few questions 8)

1) Is the Retrotink5x likely to fix the SNES jitter problems I'm currently experiencing with OSSC on my Sony tv?
2) I read about possible MVS problems on the RT5X page, but assume this won't be a problem when a DFO is installed?
3) Any options available (like a mask, or setting h/v.active) to hide the unwanted Mega Drive garbage from the screen? Or to horizontally shift the image if a game isn't properly centered?

Thanks, Bart.


1) Jitter seems to be an OSSC nuance. Haven't experienced anything like that with the SNES nor the NES which are the 2 I know of to have jitter issues on the OSSC.
2) Dunno about this one personally, sorry! Probably is fine with the DFO. I bet someone can better answer this.
3) Outputting to 1080p(Over) should cover most cases and you can shift the image up and down through the remote. Unfortunately not a thing with the 1200p and 1440p modes if that's your thing and there's no masks that I'm aware of.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:48 pm 


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bmp02 wrote:
Hi everyone, just registered to be able to ask a few questions 8)

1) Is the Retrotink5x likely to fix the SNES jitter problems I'm currently experiencing with OSSC on my Sony tv?
2) I read about possible MVS problems on the RT5X page, but assume this won't be a problem when a DFO is installed?
3) Any options available (like a mask, or setting h/v.active) to hide the unwanted Mega Drive garbage from the screen? Or to horizontally shift the image if a game isn't properly centered?

Thanks, Bart.


1. When using triple buffer mode on the 5X, there is no issue with jitter on the SNES.
2. If I recall, there was an issue at the top of the screen with the image curling as well as a few sync issues. I think it's all been, mostly, resolved if you look at the Tink5X firmware notes on the official site.
3. No masking options yet, although running Genesis games at 1080P (Over) helps. I'd be surprised if Mike doesn't add a masking feature in the near future. You can shift the image when using 1080p (Over). But, you won't be able to eliminate all of the unused nonsense on the left and right in games like the Sonic series.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:06 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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This was probably answered already but I couldn't find it. Do the Retrotink devices use a 7.5 IRE pedestal for composite and s-video inputs, or 0 IRE?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:09 pm 



Joined: 19 Jun 2021
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A few questions.

1. My 4K tv supports does not support aspect ratio correcting so 1920X1440 is stuck in widescreen no matter what I do. Is is possible that the RT5X could support 2560X1440 and then 4:3 an (UNDER) 1920X1440 mode similar to 960 in the 1080(UNDER) mode. Is it not possible as a limitation of the hardware?

2. Is a 1080p input passthrough possible or is that a limitation of the hardware?

3. What about 720p line doubled to 1440p? Is this possible?


Just a disclaimer. I really love the RetroTink 5X and I'm super grateful for all Mike Chi has done. He's a scaler genius and were are fortunate to have him in our community. I'm asking these things because I think it would be awesome if it could do these, among other new features. I know Mike Chi is busy working away at new features and fixes, my asking this isn't a "give me now!" attitude just excitement about the product. I know something like 1080p passthrough would probably be low on the priority list, even so I'd like to mention it and I'm not disappointed or upset that it wouldn't be a priority.

I'm happy to be part of this community and very grateful for the work Mike Chi has done.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:33 pm 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 440
Remote overlays are now available for preorder from RetroLabs. Ships internationally.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:02 am 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 205
Tetelestai wrote:
A few questions.

1. My 4K tv supports does not support aspect ratio correcting so 1920X1440 is stuck in widescreen no matter what I do. Is is possible that the RT5X could support 2560X1440 and then 4:3 an (UNDER) 1920X1440 mode similar to 960 in the 1080(UNDER) mode. Is it not possible as a limitation of the hardware?

2. Is a 1080p input passthrough possible or is that a limitation of the hardware?

3. What about 720p line doubled to 1440p? Is this possible?


Just a disclaimer. I really love the RetroTink 5X and I'm super grateful for all Mike Chi has done. He's a scaler genius and were are fortunate to have him in our community. I'm asking these things because I think it would be awesome if it could do these, among other new features. I know Mike Chi is busy working away at new features and fixes, my asking this isn't a "give me now!" attitude just excitement about the product. I know something like 1080p passthrough would probably be low on the priority list, even so I'd like to mention it and I'm not disappointed or upset that it wouldn't be a priority.

I'm happy to be part of this community and very grateful for the work Mike Chi has done.


Thanks!

1. 2560 x 1440 *may* be possible, although it would be serious abuse of the hardware. Nothing dangerous, but I wouldn't be hopeful that it'll work on every unit.

2. This is beyond the capability of the video ADC -- tbh, for 1080p a off the shelf commercial converter will do a great job.

3. Yes it is possible to scale 720p -> 1440p... although I personally didn't like the look of the results. Nearest neighbor was too blocky and using the interpolator resulted in something that looked very similar to having the TV or monitor do the job, so the mode was never added in. If there's interest, this one is an easy thing to do.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:13 am 


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^^

For those that have a QHD monitor (why oh why werent proper QHD TVs made?) I can see a 720p X2 mode with light scanlines maybe looking nice. You mentioned nearest neighbor scaling looked blocky, have you tried NN+ scanlines?

Then again, Im of the camp that says add every conceivably useful feature the hardware can handle. Have you thought any more about giving a 1080i/540p output any love?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:40 am 


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mikechi2 wrote:
1. 2560 x 1440 *may* be possible, although it would be serious abuse of the hardware. Nothing dangerous, but I wouldn't be hopeful that it'll work on every unit.


I wonder if there should be some sort of "advanced" menu that lets you enable/disable stuff in the default easy-to-use menus. It would let people hide output resolutions they won't use or their TV doesn't support (making it faster to switch output resolutions and avoid their TV de-syncing), allow faster selection of optimized presets (by skipping the ones they don't own), and potentially enable experimental features like 2560x1440 output that might not work.

mikechi2 wrote:
3. Yes it is possible to scale 720p -> 1440p... although I personally didn't like the look of the results. Nearest neighbor was too blocky and using the interpolator resulted in something that looked very similar to having the TV or monitor do the job, so the mode was never added in. If there's interest, this one is an easy thing to do.


I have a use case for 1280x720 -> 2560x1440: I want to use my OS9 Macintosh on my 1440p monitor, but the highest resolution supported over VGA/DVI/HDMI is more or less 1920x1080, which is way too high resolution for such an old operating system originally designed around a 512x342 pixel display. If I output 720p to my 1440p monitor, the scaling is very blurry and unpleasant. I want to scale 1280x720 to 2560x1440 with nearest-neighbour scaling to preserve the sharpness original pixels, which are important for a computer desktop.

Right now I'm using 1024x768 scaled to 1440p, which my monitor seems to do an OK (but not good) job at scaling, without making things too small.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:01 am 



Joined: 19 Jun 2021
Posts: 2
I second the idea of an advanced menu where we can hide resolutions and other features we don't normally use (480, 720, and 768 for me). It's a chore every time I want to go through the resolutions just to see which ones work best for any particular game. An expanded menu like OSSC's current OSD would be amazing.

Maybe add a 720p -> 1440p mode and then options both nearest neighbor and interpolation.

Another resolution which would be extremely niche but awesome to have would be 2048x1536. Some MiSTer users (including myself) are using old 9.7 inch iPad Retina displays to get ultra low lag and crystal clear picture quality.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:32 am 



Joined: 21 Jun 2021
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TooBeaucoup wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
There's a reason why triple buffer is the default setting. It's the most compatible mode: there are things that will work buffered but not locked, but there is nothing that will work locked but not buffered.


Yeah, I get that. Just weird that my Saturn will work in frame lock just fine from a fresh system boot in every resolution mode and doesn't muck up until an in game MODE reset. I just thought it was odd. I enjoy frame lock since technically speaking the lag is lower, but it's obviously not a deal breaker. I just have to get up off my fat azz and reboot the console by hand if I really want frame lock for a Saturn game.


I experience the exact same issue when running my Saturn through SCART RGB (using the RGC cable), it however does not occur when using the HD Retrovision component cables, it turns out the RGC SCART cable also requires to set LPF to on in order to remove some jailbars in a few games. Overall, I stick with the HD Retrovision cable since it allows me to use Frame Lock and reset from MODE without losing sync.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:58 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
I wonder if there should be some sort of "advanced" menu that lets you enable/disable stuff in the default easy-to-use menus. It would let people hide output resolutions they won't use or their TV doesn't support (making it faster to switch output resolutions and avoid their TV de-syncing), allow faster selection of optimized presets (by skipping the ones they don't own), and potentially enable experimental features like 2560x1440 output that might not work.

That would be awesome. There are a ton of resolutions that I know I can't use, but it's a pain to have to click through them and wait for the sync


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:45 pm 


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@mikechi

Would you ever consider using an FPGA design to build a pure transcoder? I would really appreciate being able transcode signals without damaging the signal at the ADC step with "generic" sampling.

As it stands, there are very few machines to properly transcode and standardise all signals to one standard (component or RGB) and simultaneously drive CRTs and a video scaler with the output. The CRT doesn't matter, but feeding a video scaler can be problematic with most transcoders.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:59 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
Would you ever consider using an FPGA design to build a pure transcoder? I would really appreciate being able transcode signals without damaging the signal at the ADC step with "generic" sampling.


This is something I've wished would be available more than once throughout the years. Have you found anything that does the job well enough in the meantime even if not perfect or covering all possible needs?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:59 pm 


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Isn't that exactly what the RGB2COMP and COMP2RGB are? Pure transcoders that operate in the analog domain and thus don't have any sort of issues or degradation caused by digital sampling.

Using an FPGA for the job would seem to introduce all of those sampling issues you're concerned about, much better to transcode in analog.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:05 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Isn't that exactly what the RGB2COMP and COMP2RGB are? Pure transcoders that operate in the analog domain and thus don't have any sort of issues or degradation caused by digital sampling.

Using an FPGA for the job would seem to introduce all of those sampling issues you're concerned about, much better to transcode in analog.


You tell me. Does the RGB2COMP have an all analog design like my Kramer FC-14? Or, does it perform ADC? If I'm misinformed, I will immediately purchase one of Chi's existing machines.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:09 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Would you ever consider using an FPGA design to build a pure transcoder? I would really appreciate being able transcode signals without damaging the signal at the ADC step with "generic" sampling.


This is something I've wished would be available more than once throughout the years. Have you found anything that does the job well enough in the meantime even if not perfect or covering all possible needs?


The FC-14 is very nice. I'm sure I can take care of it and keep it a long time, but it would be nice to have a widely available machine so people can stop paying crazy prices on eBay for old gear that needs recapping.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:25 pm 



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I would have bought an RGB2COMP a long time ago if it didn't have a SCART connector but anything else instead, 4 or 5 RCA or BNC, or DE-15, anything would be fine. The better connectors are a nice thing about something like an FC-14 (and they are priced high but not really more than an RGB2COMP anyway).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:55 pm 


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The connectors aren't terribly important... Unless you need a different sync type, you just use the appropriate cable between the two devices. The important part is how good of a job the transcoder or scaler itself does.

I'm sure the Kramer FC-14 does a great job, and it's certainly flexible, but the only one I can find for sale is $150 USD used on eBay (or a new one for $260 USD in the UK), more than 2x the cost of a brand new (and under warranty) RGB2COMP.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:06 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
You tell me. Does the RGB2COMP have an all analog design like my Kramer FC-14? Or, does it perform ADC? If I'm misinformed, I will immediately purchase one of Chi's existing machines.


I'm not sure. The COMP2RGB is fully analog (the TI LMH1251 is a purely analog transcoder), but I don't know what chip the RGB2COMP uses.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:21 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
The connectors aren't terribly important... Unless you need a different sync type, you just use the appropriate cable between the two devices. The important part is how good of a job the transcoder or scaler itself does.


Agreed, but I hate SCART connectors with a passion so I'll avoid anything that forces me to get a patch cable or adapter for it, any other type is OK.

And I suspect the RGB2COMP also uses an analog transcoder. I've never heard anyone point out a compromise in picture quality from using it.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:37 pm 



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@Josh128
I'll take a look at the 540p stuff when I get a chance - this one is pretty easy. The 1080i stuff requires a reworking of design to allow for interlaced output timings. I'm interested in that, though, for a 480i downscaling mode. Really appreciate you asking in a reasonable manner as well :)

All the transcoders are fully analog. A digital version is kind of interesting, but I'm sure would have its own set of problems. It'd also be $200-300 or more given how few units would be sold. AFAIK there's no degradation for standard definition signals. Analog transcoding introduces a tiny loss at 480p but you'd need a high resolution digitizer to notice. It won't be perceptible on a CRT.

EDIT: you can use an OSSC plus HDMI->VGA or HDMI->component box as a digital transcoder.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:56 pm 



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mikechi2 wrote:
I'm interested in that, though, for a 480i downscaling mode.


Best news I've read in a long time! A fantastic feature for SD CRTs with content that needs higher resolution than 240p.

edit: and touching on the transcoder topic again, I'm imagining a device that converts across all the popular analogue input formats, CVBS, YC, YUV, and RGB, from any one format into the other, all from the same device. That would be pretty cool and worth a higher price sticker.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:53 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
@Josh128
I'll take a look at the 540p stuff when I get a chance - this one is pretty easy. The 1080i stuff requires a reworking of design to allow for interlaced output timings. I'm interested in that, though, for a 480i downscaling mode. Really appreciate you asking in a reasonable manner as well :)

All the transcoders are fully analog. A digital version is kind of interesting, but I'm sure would have its own set of problems. It'd also be $200-300 or more given how few units would be sold. AFAIK there's no degradation for standard definition signals. Analog transcoding introduces a tiny loss at 480p but you'd need a high resolution digitizer to notice. It won't be perceptible on a CRT.

EDIT: you can use an OSSC plus HDMI->VGA or HDMI->component box as a digital transcoder.


Awesome, looking forward to see what you can come up with!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:33 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Awesome, looking forward to see what you can come up with!


Are you using an HDCRT?


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