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 Post subject: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:13 am 


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I need help deciding which of these cards to go with. The Magewell USB Capture HDMI 4K Plus Device is about $400, the AVerMedia Live Gamer 4K is just $250. The Magewell doesn't do 4K60, but the cheaper AVerMedia does? What are the tradeoffs? What makes either of these devices better than the other? Do they both have software for capturing footage?


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:18 pm 


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You're comparing an external capture box to an internal card. PCIe4x has a far greater bandwith than USB, so 4K is no problem using a PCIe card, but you can't squeeze uncompressed 4K through an USB port.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 2:47 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
You're comparing an external capture box to an internal card. PCIe4x has a far greater bandwith than USB, so 4K is no problem using a PCIe card, but you can't squeeze uncompressed 4K through an USB port.


Do you happen to know if this card here does 4K60:

Magewell Pro Capture HDMI 4K Plus LT (Loop Through) Video Capture Card https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077N9W5MB/re ... 4JE6G6QYC1


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:17 am 


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yes, it does. I have the exact card in an external thunderbolt enclosure.

The internal Avermedia (GC573) also does 4K60 though - at a quarter of the price, so unless you have a very specific reason to go for the Magewell, you'll likely be way better off with the Avermedia.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:07 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
yes, it does. I have the exact card in an external thunderbolt enclosure.

The internal Avermedia (GC573) also does 4K60 though - at a quarter of the price, so unless you have a very specific reason to go for the Magewell, you'll likely be way better off with the Avermedia.

I need the 4:4:4 for use with the OSSC, and the Avermedia doesn’t do that, plus Magewell does very well at handling strange signals. I do think that $900 is way too much for that one though, so I’m just going to stick with the Magewell 4K USB that I have now, unless you can recommend a better one.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:24 pm 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
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Would a Yuan SC710N1-L HDMI 2.0 work for your use case? I was looking at this card personally since it's vastly cheaper than the Magewell and also supports 4:4:4 on 8-bit. Yuan is the OEM for the Micomsoft XCAPTURE-1 and the Startech PEXHDCAP cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 2:39 am 


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eightbitminiboss wrote:
Would a Yuan SC710N1-L HDMI 2.0 work for your use case? I was looking at this card personally since it's vastly cheaper than the Magewell and also supports 4:4:4 on 8-bit. Yuan is the OEM for the Micomsoft XCAPTURE-1 and the Startech PEXHDCAP cards.


I found it on Adorama for $395, the same price I paid on Amazon for my 4K USB Magewell, which I think might be the better device overall, since it does a decent job handling different signals.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 2:54 am 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
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Odolwa wrote:
eightbitminiboss wrote:
Would a Yuan SC710N1-L HDMI 2.0 work for your use case? I was looking at this card personally since it's vastly cheaper than the Magewell and also supports 4:4:4 on 8-bit. Yuan is the OEM for the Micomsoft XCAPTURE-1 and the Startech PEXHDCAP cards.


I found it on Adorama for $395, the same price I paid on Amazon for my 4K USB Magewell, which I think might be the better device overall, since it does a decent job handling different signals.


Oh right, my bad. I was thinking of the PCIe Magewell 4K LT card, which is like 900 bucks.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:14 am 


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eightbitminiboss wrote:
Odolwa wrote:
eightbitminiboss wrote:
Would a Yuan SC710N1-L HDMI 2.0 work for your use case? I was looking at this card personally since it's vastly cheaper than the Magewell and also supports 4:4:4 on 8-bit. Yuan is the OEM for the Micomsoft XCAPTURE-1 and the Startech PEXHDCAP cards.


I found it on Adorama for $395, the same price I paid on Amazon for my 4K USB Magewell, which I think might be the better device overall, since it does a decent job handling different signals.


Oh right, my bad. I was thinking of the PCIe Magewell 4K LT card, which is like 900 bucks.


Way too overpriced for 4K60, and I don't see how it's that much better than the USB one which maxes out at 4K30. The USB one is good with the OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:25 am 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
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The easy answer is that Magewell targets professional broadcasting and studios while Avermedia targets streamers and gamers.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:22 am 


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eightbitminiboss wrote:
The easy answer is that Magewell targets professional broadcasting and studios while Avermedia targets streamers and gamers.

If the Magewell 4K USB one that I have now used USB Type-C, I think it would have enough bandwidth to handle 4K60. They must’ve chosen USB Type-3 instead because it’s way more common.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:31 am 


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uncompressed 4K60 in 4:4:4 is 1.5 GBytes per second. You won't get that through USB.

But to go back to the Avermedia 4K one more time. It does list XRGB 4:4:4 in its specs. Maybe you can check one of EposVox's video to confirm that. At $250 for 4K 4:4:4 that's a pretty good offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:02 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
uncompressed 4K60 in 4:4:4 is 1.5 GBytes per second. You won't get that through USB.

But to go back to the Avermedia 4K one more time. It does list XRGB 4:4:4 in its specs. Maybe you can check one of EposVox's video to confirm that. At $250 for 4K 4:4:4 that's a pretty good offer.


Are you sure, even with USB Type-C you couldn’t get 4K60?

I went to the Avermedia 4K page, and according to the color sampling area of their specifications section, it doesn’t record in anything higher than 4:2:0.
“Record: YUV 4:2:0”
https://www.avermedia.com/us/product-detail/GC573
Otherwise, it would be a way better deal than the USB Magewell.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:54 pm 


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Quote:
Are you sure, even with USB Type-C you couldn’t get 4K60?

USB Type-C is just a connector type. And yes, I'm pretty sure that real life performance of USB 3.2 Gen 2 maxes out at about 1GB/s.

This page lists the Avermedia 4K as 4:4:4 capable:
https://obsproject.com/forum/resources/ ... -more.777/


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 8:27 pm 



Joined: 12 Sep 2012
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Maybe he was confused with USB 3.2 Gen 2x2, which require compatible cable (usb type-c to usb type-c and all the separate lanes) and hardware to reach 20Gbps (more around 16Gbps/2GBps real life performance from a quick research)
But I don't know if there is any capture card that use this interface yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:44 pm 


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But the Avermedia website says it doesn’t record in 4:4:4 mode, just 4:2:0. The video by EposVox mentions the Avermedia card being able to do 4:4:4 in 1080P not sure if 60 or 30 FPS, but why does the website say that it maxes out at YUV 4:2:0 and doesn't record in RGB 4:4:4.

"Input/ Pass-through YUV 4:4:4, YUV 4:2:2, YUV 4:2:0, RGB24

Preview:
Up to FHD: YUV 4:2:2, YUV 4:2:0 , RGB24
4K: YUV 4:2:0 only

Record: YUV 4:2:0"

https://youtu.be/PV82chT1DqY

The Magewell USB 4K device says that it is 4K60 capable on the website, but everyone else agrees that it maxes out at 4K30.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:57 am 


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Quote:
but why does the website say that it maxes out at YUV 4:2:0 and doesn't record in RGB 4:4:4

I ASSUME that their recording software (ReCentral) might only record in h264 4:2:0, but if you use any other software, where you can select a 4:4:4 capable codec, you should be be able to record in 4:4:4, since the card itself supports it.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:39 am 



Joined: 15 Nov 2018
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I can confirm that the Live Gamer 4K does indeed do 4:4:4. It's a good card without much competition, especially if you can wait for it to go on sale. Can be had on sale for around $200-220.

The one thing I would be cautious of is if you're using a key E wi-fi card in your system. The capture device requires a maximum payload size of 256 bytes in order to capture at the highest quality levels, and every key E wi-fi card I'm aware of only operates at a maximum payload size of 128 bytes, which will limit the size of all the other PCIe devices on the same lane. You can work around this issue if you don't mind plugging the capture card into your GPU slot or possibly if you have an HEDT motherboard or something. This is a relatively well known issue with this card. I've contacted AVerMedia about it, and they've said specifically that 4K60 HDR (10bit 4:2:0) captures are possible even with a max payload of only 128 bytes, but 4K60 4:4:4 would be too much bandwidth. I don't have an easy way of confirming this myself, however. Up to 4K30 4:4:4 and 3440×1440@60fps 4:4:4 as well as 4K60 4:2:2 are possible with 128 bytes MPS. Again, this only applies if the maximum payload size of the capture device is somehow limited in your system, most commonly by a key E wi-fi card.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:16 pm 


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How do I know if my motherboard has one of these key E wi-fi cards in it? I’m using the Asus Rog Strix 570-e.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:05 pm 



Joined: 15 Nov 2018
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That motherboard comes with the same wi-fi card I'm using, but it's difficult for me to know if you'll be affected by the same issue since it's built in. What I can say is that this user also has an X570 with built-in wi-fi and has the same issue I describe. Your board has an extra PCIe x4 slot that appears to be served by the chipset rather than the CPU, so it might work fine for you in that slot, but I can't say for certain. Regardless, if you're okay with moving around the GPU, you should be able to fix it with that workaround. It's really a frustrating issue that could easily be solved by AVerMedia moving to PCIe 3.0 or Intel making a wi-fi chip with a payload size of 256 bytes. I've already advised both companies to considering doing that in the future. Sorry I can't be of more help.

edit: It occurred to me that you might be able to find out if you're also limited by moving your GPU to the different PCIe slots in your motherboard and then using HWiNFO64 to see what payload size you're getting. When launching the program, you'll be presented with a tree view on the left-hand side. Expand the Bus section until you find your GPU, and the maximum payload size and maximum payload size supported will be indicated on the right. If both of those values are at least 256 bytes in one of your currently empty PCIe slots, you should be fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:39 pm 


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dojima wrote:
That motherboard comes with the same wi-fi card I'm using, but it's difficult for me to know if you'll be affected by the same issue since it's built in. What I can say is that this user also has an X570 with built-in wi-fi and has the same issue I describe. Your board has an extra PCIe x4 slot that appears to be served by the chipset rather than the CPU, so it might work fine for you in that slot, but I can't say for certain. Regardless, if you're okay with moving around the GPU, you should be able to fix it with that workaround. It's really a frustrating issue that could easily be solved by AVerMedia moving to PCIe 3.0 or Intel making a wi-fi chip with a payload size of 256 bytes. I've already advised both companies to considering doing that in the future. Sorry I can't be of more help.

edit: It occurred to me that you might be able to find out if you're also limited by moving your GPU to the different PCIe slots in your motherboard and then using HWiNFO64 to see what payload size you're getting. When launching the program, you'll be presented with a tree view on the left-hand side. Expand the Bus section until you find your GPU, and the maximum payload size and maximum payload size supported will be indicated on the right. If both of those values are at least 256 bytes in one of your currently empty PCIe slots, you should be fine.


I don't like the idea of moving the GPU around and having to jump through hoops like this. It's not safe to keep messing around with a
hardware setup, and it's just not for me. What do you think about the Magewell 4K USB HDMI LT that I'm using now? Is it as good or better than the Avermedia, given the issue with the key E wi-fi card, which isn't affected by the Magewell?


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:03 pm 



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Well, the AVerMedia card is certainly more capable in some ways. If you're referring to this device, Magewell indicates that it maxes out at 4K30 4:2:0. Even while limited with the AVerMedia card, you'd still be able to get 4K60 at 4:2:2. That said, Magewell makes good products. I haven't used them myself, but they seem to be very flexible devices capable of all sorts of workflows. You do pay a bit of a premium for that flexibility however. It really just depends on exactly what you require, as Fudoh indicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:38 pm 


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dojima wrote:
Well, the AVerMedia card is certainly more capable in some ways. If you're referring to this device, Magewell indicates that it maxes out at 4K30 4:2:0. Even while limited with the AVerMedia card, you'd still be able to get 4K60 at 4:2:2. That said, Magewell makes good products. I haven't used them myself, but they seem to be very flexible devices capable of all sorts of workflows. You do pay a bit of a premium for that flexibility however. It really just depends on exactly what you require, as Fudoh indicated.

For the time being, I'm just using it with the OSSC, and I just want 1080p60FPS 4:4:4. Is that doable with the Magewell that I have? Is that also doable with the AverMedia without any issue from the key E wi-fi card?


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 7:20 pm 



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Magewell only specifically indicates support for 4:2:2 1080p at up to 90FPS, but it should have enough bandwidth for 4:4:4 60 as well, yes. You could contact them to be certain. The AVerMedia card easily has enough bandwidth for 4:4:4 at 1080p60 while affected by the issue. Only 4K60 is potentially problematic depending on bit depth and chroma resolution needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:32 pm 


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dojima wrote:
Your board has an extra PCIe x4 slot that appears to be served by the chipset rather than the CPU, so it might work fine for you in that slot, but I can't say for certain.


Image

For the Avermedia card, which PCI-e slot should I use. I have a big GPU in the top slot, that also covers the smaller one beneath it. Should I use the second small slot?


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:39 pm 



Joined: 15 Nov 2018
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Those small slots are only x1 slots, and the capture card requires x4, so you'd either have to use the 3rd or 5th slots. I'd recommend the 5th.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:42 pm 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
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Depending on how it's wired, you'll probably have to disable the wifi card otherwise the lane will probably have its payload limited which will prevent you from getting the full 4K60 4:4:4 bandwidth.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:42 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
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I think there's lots of confusion here as companies like Avermedia, Blackmagic, and Elgato like to list the limitations of their own in-house capture software as the limits of the capture cards themselves and/or hide the underlying hardware specs, which is both unfortunate and confusing to end customers.

There's also the hardware side where USB 3.0 simply doesn't have the signaling bandwidth for >1080p60 @ RGB/444, especially if you have anything bandwidth-intensive on the same USB controller like storage or networking. External capture at >1080p60 @ 4:4:4/RGB requires the bandwidth of Thunderbolt 3.

Then you have the PCIe and chipset bandwidth limits of consumer desktop PC platforms. Anything less/older than either an Intel 11th-gen Core (Rocket Lake) on Z590 chipset or AMD Ryzen 3000-series (Zen 2, aka Matisse) on X570 chipset simply doesn't have the CPU <-> chipset interlink bandwidth for things like PCie x4 capture cards running off the chipset. Additionally, you have to be on the higher-end Intel Z/Q/W-series or AMD X/B-series consumer chipsets to support bifurcating the PCIe x16 bandwidth meant for the GPU into something like x8/x8. Beyond this you're off into HEDT/workstation land with things like Intel X-series of AMD Threadripper to get more PCIe lanes to work with.

As for the capture cards themselves, 444 really limits the field and external even more so.

Here's what I know of on the market today:

USB 3.0 (RGB/4:4:4 up to 1080p60):
- Avermedia Live Gamer Ultra (GC553)
- Magewell USB Capture / USB Capture Plus

Thunderbolt 3 (RGB/4:4:4 at >1080p60):
- Avermedia Live Gamer Bolt (GC555)
- Blackmagic UltraStudio 4K Mini / UltraStudio 4K Extreme
- AJA Io 4K Plus

PCIe (RGB/4:4:4 at >1080p60):
- Avermedia Live Gamer 4K (GC573)
- Blackmagic DeckLink Quad HDMI Recorder / DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G
- Datapath VisionSC series
- Elgato 4K60 Pro Mk.2 (Yuan OEM card)
- Magewell Pro Capture HDMI 4K Plus series
- Yuan SC700-series
(Plus other high-end commercial/enterprise market stuff like AJA, Osprey, Bluefish444, etc)

dojima wrote:
Magewell only specifically indicates support for 4:2:2 1080p at up to 90FPS, but it should have enough bandwidth for 4:4:4 60 as well, yes. You could contact them to be certain. The AVerMedia card easily has enough bandwidth for 4:4:4 at 1080p60 while affected by the issue. Only 4K60 is potentially problematic depending on bit depth and chroma resolution needed.

You have to remember there was the original pre-a/b 10.2 Gbps version of HDMI 2.0 where 18 Gbps was optional and the later a/b version of HDMI 2.0a where 18 Gbps was optional. This is why many pro market cards have newer "plus" versions that have the full 18 Gbps of HDMI 2.0 a/b. The early "4K" cards only did 2160p @ 4:2:0 due to HDMI signaling bandwidth limits. See e.g. Pro Capture HDMI 4K vs Pro Capture HDMI 4K Plus.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:51 pm 


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The Avermedia card just came in the mail today from Amazon. What I can say is for sure this is the better choice. That Magewell was giving me absolute hell when playing Pokemon Stadium on my RGB modded N64 while using a GameShark code to remove the anti-aliasing. This card, almost perfect. No issues. Almost seamless changes between the title screen, main menu, and the menu where you choose the Pokemon. It's amazing how much better this card handles things than the Magewell did, which required unhooking the HDMI cables and plugging them into the TV so I could choose my Pokemon, then putting them back into the Magewell to do captures. Plus, I wouldn't even be able to capture any of that footage of me selecting the Pokemon at all because there was no signal. This one, the signal never leaves. All this, while being almost half the price. Thank you guys so much for helping me out. I'm going to keep testing different things with it, just to make sure that I didn't miss anything, but I'm very happy with Pokemon Stadium so far, which was the most troubling one.


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 Post subject: Re: Magewell USB 4K Plus or Avermedia Live Gamer 4K
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:56 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 193
If you only need up to 1080p60 for your 4:4:4 / RGB captures over PCIe (and can live with 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 at >1080p60, if it supports it at all), there are some (relatively) cheaper options:

- Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K / DeckLink Studio 4K / Mini Recorder 4K
- Magewell Pro Capture / USB Capture
- Datapath VisionAV

Heads up about Blackmagic:
Blackmagic cards really don't like balls-on on-spec video signals. Oddball sync rates like the NES / SNES or Midway / Seibu Kaihatsu arcade can really throw Blackmagic cards for a loop. Also, Blackmagic's analog video support is flaming garbage across their entire range and best avoided for analog capture.


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