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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:09 pm 


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darcagn wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.


I don't really think passing or failing this human metronome challenge is really indicative of whether or not the lag is impactful in real world gameplay

20ms is roughly equivalent to a Framemeister, isn't it?

I am not a mutant, I am not a pro gamer. I'm a guy that sometimes likes to play Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! on NES, and while I find the Framemeister acceptable for most games, this is a game I cannot get far into on a Framemeister. The lag of my panel plus Framemeister puts the later World Circuit matches out of my ability. I guess I'll find out if the TINK5X Pro can handle this.


I know this is just my own experience, but I haven't had any issues with NES or SNES Punch Out!! using a DVDO and OSSC--and that's around half a frame of latency. I think you're going to be happy with just 4ms of added video processing lag from the TINKx5 if you have a fast display. (Although, I admit I have a lot of practice, so maybe I am automatically compensating?) If I get the lag up to around 20ms with a slower upscaler, I start missing windows to get stars, so I understand the effect you're talking about. It's definitely a real thing. :-)
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:20 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
darcagn wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Its the equivalent of using the manual lag test in the 240p test suite with the moving target moving 4x as fast as it does and being able to consistently hit 0. No human could consistently do that. I would bet my life savings on it. The OSSC and the GBS-C basically get you the same lag, and people rave about them.

If for some reason some mutant/X Man could, they would be better served to just chunk the digital display and scaler in the trash and get a CRT.


I don't really think passing or failing this human metronome challenge is really indicative of whether or not the lag is impactful in real world gameplay

20ms is roughly equivalent to a Framemeister, isn't it?

I am not a mutant, I am not a pro gamer. I'm a guy that sometimes likes to play Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! on NES, and while I find the Framemeister acceptable for most games, this is a game I cannot get far into on a Framemeister. The lag of my panel plus Framemeister puts the later World Circuit matches out of my ability. I guess I'll find out if the TINK5X Pro can handle this.


I know this is just my own experience, but I haven't had any issues with NES or SNES Punch Out!! using a DVDO and OSSC--and that's around half a frame of latency. I think you're going to be happy with just 4ms of added video processing lag from the TINKx5 if you have a fast display. (Although, I admit I have a lot of practice, so maybe I am automatically compensating?) If I get the lag up to around 20ms with a slower upscaler, I start missing windows to get stars, so I understand the effect you're talking about. It's definitely a real thing. :-)


Looking back now, I think I misread. I was under the impression Josh was talking about 20ms, not 4ms.
4ms would be a hell of a lot less noticeable.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:26 pm 


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^^
Thats right, Im talking the 4ms that you are supposed to get in frame locked mode (for the mutants :mrgreen: ). I agree that 20ms would definitely be noticeable vs zero lag (Note that Mike specifies that triple-buffered mode lag is not necessarily 20 ms, but can vary from 4ms-20ms).

Everyone needs to also keep in mind display lag can vary depending on incoming resolution and that "native res" on many if not all digital displays is usually the fastest. Whereas the Tink 2x can only output 480p and the 5x can output 1200p+, its possible you may be reducing latency by setting to the native res of your display. The difference might easily end up being more than the 4ms difference of the 2x and 5x to begin with.

Also, its just my experience, but if the GBS-C adds approximately the same 4ms lag, at least on a VGA monitor which has no additional lag, its totally unnoticeable. I have two CRTs side by side, it would be cool to do a photo or video comparison of a split video signal, one feeding the GBS>VGA and the other straight to the 15KHz CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:59 pm 



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Guys, any advice on how to connect my DC (480p) to the 5x pro?

1)retrogamingcables.uk sells a 480p scart cable for about 70 USD (without shipping), and it's out of stock

2)retro access sells a DREAMCAST 15KHZ/31KHZ 480I/480P SCART CABLE for about 35 USD but ordering there is kind of hard, I can't even create an account there, and currently they aren't selling scart cables.

I heard there is a vga to scart adapter coming, could that work with a DC vga box?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:22 pm 


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I heard HD Retrovision was working on a DC cable, but I have no idea when it's coming out. The information on the site is old and still lists 2020 dates (obviously not happening).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:26 pm 


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serge85 wrote:
Guys, any advice on how to connect my DC (480p) to the 5x pro?

1)retrogamingcables.uk sells a 480p scart cable for about 70 USD (without shipping), and it's out of stock

2)retro access sells a DREAMCAST 15KHZ/31KHZ 480I/480P SCART CABLE for about 35 USD but ordering there is kind of hard, I can't even create an account there, and currently they aren't selling scart cables.

I heard there is a vga to scart adapter coming, could that work with a DC vga box?


Oh man, even my custom cables I just ordered from retro-access were under $50 each. Kind of crazy for the rgc cable.

I would wait for mike's adapter, I don't see why it wouldn't support 480i and 480p. If retro-access gets SCART back in stock before that (their site says 2 weeks right now) I'd get their cable if you don't want to wait.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:50 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
imagine using fake scanlines like just buy a CRT lmao

But what if you live in an area where good CRT TVs are difficult to find? It took me a long time to find a good CRT for cheap in my area since there aren't that many people who are selling them these days. I have seen some go for outrageously expensive prices (I once saw a Trinitron XBR sell for $500 in my area) and I also see free flatscreens (modern ones, not the "flat" CRTs) more often than I see free CRTs in my area's Craigslist. There are also people in certain areas across the country with worse luck than me when it comes to finding good CRTs.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:58 pm 


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The problem is that those "VGA" boxes tend to be from a certain disreputable manufacturer...

The RGC cable is $55 USD, not $70. 39.99 GBP in USD is $55.25 right now. Remember that anybody outside the EU is not subject to VAT, so you need to look at the "ex tax" price and not the full price.

Both RA and RGC are out of stock, and HDRV (who I personally would rather wait for) haven't launched yet. So... If you want one as fast as possible, grab whichever of those three is available first, I guess?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 11:30 pm 


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KPackratt2k wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
imagine using fake scanlines like just buy a CRT lmao

But what if you live in an area where good CRT TVs are difficult to find? It took me a long time to find a good CRT for cheap in my area since there aren't that many people who are selling them these days. I have seen some go for outrageously expensive prices (I once saw a Trinitron XBR sell for $500 in my area) and I also see free flatscreens (modern ones, not the "flat" CRTs) more often than I see free CRTs in my area's Craigslist. There are also people in certain areas across the country with worse luck than me when it comes to finding good CRTs.


Not only that but the huge pain in the ass if you want a bigger size display. I love playing my retro games on my 65 inch 4k TV. The best I can get to that size in a CRT is a 36". And along with it, I get the pleasure of dealing with a 300lb TV, not to mention, screen geometry issues become a much bigger deal on larger tube TVs. I own a little 20" CRT which is sure great for some of my consoles, but I'll never understand the people who laugh at fake scanlines and tell people to just get a CRT. Also, CRTs definitely aren't going to be easy to find forever, so people had better start embracing fake scanlines and hoping the tech continues to improve!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 11:56 pm 



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Thanks guys for the input.

I guess I'll take whatever comes first.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 12:19 am 


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I too tried to get a DC SCART from RGC today but saw their SCART part order is further delayed.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 12:46 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
The problem is that those "VGA" boxes tend to be from a certain disreputable manufacturer...

The RGC cable is $55 USD, not $70. 39.99 GBP in USD is $55.25 right now. Remember that anybody outside the EU is not subject to VAT, so you need to look at the "ex tax" price and not the full price.

Both RA and RGC are out of stock, and HDRV (who I personally would rather wait for) haven't launched yet. So... If you want one as fast as possible, grab whichever of those three is available first, I guess?


Wait what? Feel like I'm out of the loop here. Haven't bought much in the way of hardware in a long time* since I've been happy with my set-up.

*5x was the first processor or even cable I've bought in some years.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 12:58 am 


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KPackratt2k wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
imagine using fake scanlines like just buy a CRT lmao

But what if you live in an area where good CRT TVs are difficult to find? It took me a long time to find a good CRT for cheap in my area since there aren't that many people who are selling them these days. I have seen some go for outrageously expensive prices (I once saw a Trinitron XBR sell for $500 in my area) and I also see free flatscreens (modern ones, not the "flat" CRTs) more often than I see free CRTs in my area's Craigslist. There are also people in certain areas across the country with worse luck than me when it comes to finding good CRTs.

I'm sorry you're struggling, but be patient and check craigslist daily. Cast a wide net with your search distance parameters and don't use overly specific keywords. Like just search for "free TV" or the like. I was able to find two JVC 32" D-series and even the vaunted KV-32FV310 this way. They are still out there, but yes getting much harder to find.

If you're willing to settle for a more basic consumer TV, just about anything made after 2000 with a component input (or RGB mod) will provide a great experience. These type of sets are still easy pickings, at least here on the east coast of the US


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am 


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TooBeaucoup wrote:
Not only that but the huge pain in the ass if you want a bigger size display. I love playing my retro games on my 65 inch 4k TV. The best I can get to that size in a CRT is a 36".

A 32" CRT is perfectly adequate IMO if you're you're willing to reduce your viewing distance vs. the flat panel. I keep my CRTs on rolling carts so I can just roll them up to the couch when I want to play


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:28 am 


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I was a tad confused by a part of Bob's review. He said some features are unavailable in 480 (and maybe 720)? Are the interpolation options available at these resolutions?
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:29 am 



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This is just release firmware. AFAIK Mike plans to add new features as time passes.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:36 pm 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
Wait what? Feel like I'm out of the loop here. Haven't bought much in the way of hardware in a long time* since I've been happy with my set-up.

*5x was the first processor or even cable I've bought in some years.


The VGA box people normally talk about is the Beharbros TORO/KURO/etc, and Beharbros have a reputation for poorly/incorrectly designed barely working products with build quality and reliability issues. RGC, RA, HDRV, use literally anything else to get 480p out of your Dreamcast.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:59 pm 



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I had to build my own Toro replacement cable since the included one, even after getting it replaced, was complete garbage - any slight movement and the colors and sync would go out of whack.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:30 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:
Not only that but the huge pain in the ass if you want a bigger size display. I love playing my retro games on my 65 inch 4k TV. The best I can get to that size in a CRT is a 36".

A 32" CRT is perfectly adequate IMO if you're you're willing to reduce your viewing distance vs. the flat panel. I keep my CRTs on rolling carts so I can just roll them up to the couch when I want to play


True enough, but even your average 32 weighs 150+ lbs. I certainly could have one, it's just more trouble than it's worth for me, personally. That said, I'm certainly glad people are still enjoying theirs!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:59 pm 



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bahamutfan64 wrote:
I had to build my own Toro replacement cable since the included one, even after getting it replaced, was complete garbage - any slight movement and the colors and sync would go out of whack.


Yep mine has that same problem. Bad quality control at Beharbros. Also the VGA image quality is worse than the Sega VGA box.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:54 pm 



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H6rdc0re wrote:
bahamutfan64 wrote:
I had to build my own Toro replacement cable since the included one, even after getting it replaced, was complete garbage - any slight movement and the colors and sync would go out of whack.


Yep mine has that same problem. Bad quality control at Beharbros. Also the VGA image quality is worse than the Sega VGA box.


It's less bad QC and more bad product in general. And yes, same with me, the image quality is not good.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:11 pm 


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TooBeaucoup wrote:
True enough, but even your average 32 weighs 150+ lbs.


For a trinitron yes, but the slot mask sets are actually considerably lighter


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:51 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Steamflogger Boss wrote:
Wait what? Feel like I'm out of the loop here. Haven't bought much in the way of hardware in a long time* since I've been happy with my set-up.

*5x was the first processor or even cable I've bought in some years.


The VGA box people normally talk about is the Beharbros TORO/KURO/etc, and Beharbros have a reputation for poorly/incorrectly designed barely working products with build quality and reliability issues. RGC, RA, HDRV, use literally anything else to get 480p out of your Dreamcast.


Ah, yeah. I had some negative experiences with them, sold the thing and never looked back.

RE quality: I had an of the era 3rd party VGA thing that was better pq than the beharbros box. LOL.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:57 pm 



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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Steamflogger Boss wrote:
Wait what? Feel like I'm out of the loop here. Haven't bought much in the way of hardware in a long time* since I've been happy with my set-up.

*5x was the first processor or even cable I've bought in some years.


The VGA box people normally talk about is the Beharbros TORO/KURO/etc, and Beharbros have a reputation for poorly/incorrectly designed barely working products with build quality and reliability issues. RGC, RA, HDRV, use literally anything else to get 480p out of your Dreamcast.


Ah, yeah. I had some negative experiences with them, sold the thing and never looked back.

RE quality: I had an of the era 3rd party VGA thing that was better pq than the beharbros box. LOL.


I second this. Absolute junk in my opinion.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:35 pm 



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PixelPhoenix wrote:
I do wonder about the potential chroma upsampling error you mentioned.


I tried to tag Mike and ask about it a couple times. No response. Hopefully it's looked into a bit more. I hate that I'm trained to look for errors like these,but alas.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:44 pm 



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I remember Adam Koralik shilling the hell out of those boxes, I had no idea they were that bad.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 4:20 pm 


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tongshadow wrote:
I remember Adam Koralik shilling the hell out of those boxes, I had no idea they were that bad.


All the influencers were pushing Behar Bros hard. When I got a second "fixed" "new design" Garo that was significantly worse than my original unit, I knew to steer clear of Behar Bros. I still can't figure out how the new Garo got out the door in that state.

People like mikechi2, citris3000psi, bucko, voultar, borti, and marqs (among so many others) have really helped out by raising the bar for quality. :-)
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:24 pm 



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I thought Mike Chi said this product would produce enough for everyone.

3 days later its OOS.

I'll probably bite on this product, it seems to be everything I wanted and has nothing I don't want.
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:32 pm 


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From what we gather here, Mike had at least 1500-2000 units for sale. At $275 a pop, its understandable he didnt foresee them selling out in 5 minutes. So you shouldnt hold that against the man. Thats probably more units than AMD or Nvidia initially had for sale of their top GPUs released recently.

Personally I would have never thought a device like the RT5X would have sold so quickly at that price. Its unbelievable. Its already a super niche fucking product, way more niche than most PC hardware. If Mike had projected this he could have easily launched at $299 and made himself an extra $40,000 no sweat in maybe 10 minutes. People are just fucking swimming in disposable money right now, apparently.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:48 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
tongshadow wrote:
I remember Adam Koralik shilling the hell out of those boxes, I had no idea they were that bad.


All the influencers were pushing Behar Bros hard. When I got a second "fixed" "new design" Garo that was significantly worse than my original unit, I knew to steer clear of Behar Bros. I still can't figure out how the new Garo got out the door in that state.

People like mikechi2, citris3000psi, bucko, voultar, borti, and marqs (among so many others) have really helped out by raising the bar for quality. :-)


I never tried the fully redesigned one that came out a year after I released the RGB bypass mod for it, I'm surprised to hear it was even worse; the major change seemed to be that they added the amp to do the buffering just like the bypass mod did, though in our bypass mod we cheated by just pulling the luma line from the input and buffering that to the output, because the GARO's sync generation was broken and it was much simpler to just buffer the input luma signal and basically not touch sync at all, rather than trying to convert the HV sync output from the TI chip. However, I do know that not long after the bypass was released, they just stopped including a SCART port on the GARO to get around its broken csync :P

The two main issues with the GARO (among many) were that, first of all the colourspace conversion chip from TI explicitly says in the datasheet that you can't drive video outputs with it without buffering (they wired the VGA/SCART ports directly to the chip's output, causing tons of bloom/glow/fade issues), and second of all they weren't using a valid method of combining HV sync into sync, causing lots of compatibility issues. Their "new design" claims to fix all that, but I haven't tried it.

And besides, ever since Mike released the COMP2RGB and RGB2COMP, who cares about the GARO :)


Last edited by Guspaz on Tue May 04, 2021 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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