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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:29 pm 


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Location: Sweden
Guspaz wrote:

Keep in mind we're talking about the pack-in cables, not the additional cables sold separately.


Well even worse, I believe both my PAL NES and SNES came with RF only back in the day. I then bought a 1st party composite cable for my SNES, believing that was the best available. I’d never heard of RGB, and noone at the store informed me of anything else either (granted it was a regular toy store, not a game/electronics store).
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:39 pm 



Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Posts: 260
Guspaz wrote:
Ryoandr wrote:
All official Sega, Nintendo and Sony cables were wired in RGB, it seems you don't know what you're talking about....


I was just reading a thread on Reddit where UK PAL console owners were complaining about their childhood Nintendo consoles coming with composite-only SCART cables, so...

Considering that console manufacturers kept shipping their consoles with nothing but composite cables in North America even as they were including component and even HDMI support, I find it hard to believe (particularly with people in PAL territories directly disputing your claims) that those PAL consoles all shipped with RGB out of the box. Maybe some of them did, but clearly a lot did not.

Keep in mind we're talking about the pack-in cables, not the additional cables sold separately.

SMS, MD1, MD2, SNES, Saturn, DC came with RGB as packins over here. And official cable RGB cables exist for Playstation and GC. Also japan console and game import was a thing starting with 16bit era due to huge delays, slower and squished display (this was a thing magazines mentioned) and popular anime/manga games that would never get officially published, and nearly all importers packed in an RGB cable as it bypassed color encoding problems entirely, and many TVs accepted a 60hz refresh. RGB knowledge was a thing even back then. In fact my first MD was a japanese one.

As I said, not everything is HERE BE DRAGONS in the world.

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(inb4 they are JP21, check the model numbers on the sega cables)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:43 pm 


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Location: Montréal, Canada
I'm thinking, since almost all information on the Sega cables is in French, that these were not necessarily included in PAL territories, such as in the UK, where people were complaining about their composite pack-in cables. France was SECAM rather than PAL, and French consoles like the NES often had fake RGB that just transcoded from composite video. That makes me wonder if there was some sort of legislation/regulation in France, or if they were just trying to avoid the PAL/SECAM incompatibilities that were not relevant outside of France.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:50 pm 



Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Posts: 260
Guspaz wrote:
I'm thinking, since almost all information on the Sega cables is in French, that these were not necessarily included all over Europe, such as in the UK, where people were complaining about their composite pack-in cables. France was SECAM rather than PAL, and French consoles like the NES often had fake RGB that just transcoded from composite video.

That doesn't erase the fact that it existed officially. And the whole 16bit computer scene was RGB too. NES was the only one transcoded, that's why I didn't put it. Heck in a magazine chrismas guide the SMS was quoted as having better IQ.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:55 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 164
Ryoandr wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
I'm thinking, since almost all information on the Sega cables is in French, that these were not necessarily included all over Europe, such as in the UK, where people were complaining about their composite pack-in cables. France was SECAM rather than PAL, and French consoles like the NES often had fake RGB that just transcoded from composite video.

That doesn't erase the fact that it existed officially. And the whole 16bit computer scene was RGB too. NES was the only one transcoded, that's why I didn't put it. Heck in a magazine chrismas guide the SMS was quoted as having better IQ.


Can we please try to stay on topic. Thanks.

We can start a cable wars thread elsewhere if there's enough popular demand.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:01 pm 



Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Posts: 260
mikechi2 wrote:
Can we please try to stay on topic. Thanks.

We can start a cable wars thread elsewhere if there's enough popular demand.

Well you brought the subject by stating that scart cables were wired in composite only...
cm'on guys! :wink:
I'll stop, but get better info next time.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:19 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1405
Ryoandr wrote:
Well you brought the subject by stating that scart cables were wired in composite only...
cm'on guys!
I'll stop, but get better info next time.


Mike obviously meant that most people using SCART cables in Europe in the 90s were just getting composite video and audio from it, which is true. If you were using RGB since the 80s you were clearly an outlier, most people were not. Same in Japan for game consoles, even though the SCART-like JP21 cables were available for many systems, it was only a minority of users that owned them.

None of this changes the fact that the SCART/JP21 connector and standard is, taking everything into account, worse than the other options available today for analogue video.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:31 pm 


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Can you share some details about the comb filtering? Is that feature handled by the FPGA? If so, is it custom implementation or based on IP? I assume it would try to identify dot crawl based on past frames?
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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:32 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 74
Will it support 24 kHz or other atypical scan rates? (Asked earlier but I think it got missed.)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:26 am 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 164
Sirotaca wrote:
Will it support 24 kHz or other atypical scan rates? (Asked earlier but I think it got missed.)


In theory yes, but I'd need access to the hardware to build the profiles and test.

orange808 wrote:
Can you share some details about the comb filtering? Is that feature handled by the FPGA? If so, is it custom implementation or based on IP? I assume it would try to identify dot crawl based on past frames?


Currently it is handled by the video chip and is a 2-D line filter. In theory some very interesting things are possible with the FPGA decoding composite or S-video for game stuff, but not sure if that's going to happen, haha.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:14 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 480
mikechi2 wrote:


Dreamy.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:39 pm 


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Ahhh-- 768p = 384p X2. So if it can handle 24/25KHz, it can get you perfect scaling with and without scanlines on 768p TVs for 25KHz arcade games from boards like Model 3, Atari Seattle/Vegas, GroovyMAME PC, etc. Once the modes are implemented anyway. Nice!!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:25 am 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
Posts: 171
Location: Germany
mikechi2 wrote:
In theory yes, but I'd need access to the hardware to build the profiles and test.


Josh128 wrote:
GroovyMAME PC


It's good that you mention it. I think a Groovymame setup is very beneficial to every dev who works on scaler hardware. I recommended one to rama as well over in the GBSControl thread, I think in regards to Mortal Kombat and its wonky 55Hz output :D


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:46 am 


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SuperSpongo wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
In theory yes, but I'd need access to the hardware to build the profiles and test.


Josh128 wrote:
GroovyMAME PC


It's good that you mention it. I think a Groovymame setup is very beneficial to every dev who works on scaler hardware. I recommended one to rama as well over in the GBSControl thread, I think in regards to Mortal Kombat and its wonky 55Hz output :D


Yeah, R-Type 2 (not sure about 1) as well. High pixel count, low refresh. Think it may be the same as MK2.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:03 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 164
Haha Groovymame is probably too well behaved. You can also use a Raspberry Pi and something like my old RPi hats to generate Arcade mimicking timings. The real challenge (annoyance) is various badly behaved sync signals.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:08 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 164
Here's a short demo of the auto-phase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBxdjNL0Zek

Honestly, generic already looks really good, if you're too lazy (like me) to bother selecting the console :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:24 pm 


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tfw you can't tell the difference between generic and per-pixel unless you put them side-by-side...

What's the horizontal sample resolution for generic?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:38 pm 


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Joined: 17 Feb 2021
Posts: 19
AUTO-PHASE-SELECTION

MOTION-ADAPTIVE-DEINTERLACING

TAKE OUR MONEY !!!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:45 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 164
Guspaz wrote:
tfw you can't tell the difference between generic and per-pixel unless you put them side-by-side...

What's the horizontal sample resolution for generic?


Depends on the output resolution. Generally as high as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:46 pm 


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Posts: 283
What was that glitch on the Sonic title screen (45 or 46 seconds in)? Is that something to do with the 5X Pro or something else?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:00 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1405
Tempest_2084 wrote:
What was that glitch on the Sonic title screen (45 or 46 seconds in)? Is that something to do with the 5X Pro or something else?


Looks like it was just switching from SNES 256 to Genesis 320


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:09 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 164
Yup, it is the phase locking process.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:13 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Yup, it is the phase locking process.


Oh ok. So it take a few seconds to switch between different phases then? Not that this is a problem unless you're rapidly switching between systems.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:19 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 164
It’s pretty fast, in this case it needed to wait until the black screen is over to start working.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:28 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
It’s pretty fast, in this case it needed to wait until the black screen is over to start working.


Out of curiosity does that happen every time or just when you switch systems?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:11 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 164
mikechi2 wrote:
Here's a short demo of the auto-phase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBxdjNL0Zek

Honestly, generic already looks really good, if you're too lazy (like me) to bother selecting the console :)


My bad, I just realized the scaler was set to a vertical factor of 4.5x (for 240p to fill a 1080p frame), resulting in a little loss of sharpness. But hopefully this shows that with a good polyphase scaler and a suitable kernel, like bilinear sharp, integer factors are no longer mandatory.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:40 pm 


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Posts: 2027
Location: Denmark
mikechi2 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Here's a short demo of the auto-phase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBxdjNL0Zek

Honestly, generic already looks really good, if you're too lazy (like me) to bother selecting the console :)


My bad, I just realized the scaler was set to a vertical factor of 4.5x (for 240p to fill a 1080p frame), resulting in a little loss of sharpness. But hopefully this shows that with a good polyphase scaler and a suitable kernel, like bilinear sharp, integer factors are no longer mandatory.


Yeah that doesn't look bad :) Freeze framing on the checkerboarded letters in SFA3 shows no obvious variation in pixel height. I would still like to see it with all black scanlines and a slow vertical-moving RPG game on an almost solid green background. Should be really easy to spot if there is any noticeable shimmering caused by the scaler.

I still would like to see an option for integer scaling in case it isn't absolutely shimmer-free with scanlines, but I have to admit that I'm impressed by the results in 1080p regardless - and at that resolution a 4K TV shouldn't add additional shimmering when upscaling. Well done, it's much better than I imagined it would be :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:44 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 164
Konsolkongen wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Here's a short demo of the auto-phase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBxdjNL0Zek

Honestly, generic already looks really good, if you're too lazy (like me) to bother selecting the console :)


My bad, I just realized the scaler was set to a vertical factor of 4.5x (for 240p to fill a 1080p frame), resulting in a little loss of sharpness. But hopefully this shows that with a good polyphase scaler and a suitable kernel, like bilinear sharp, integer factors are no longer mandatory.


Yeah that doesn't look bad :) Freeze framing on the checkerboarded letters in SFA3 shows no obvious variation in pixel height. I would still like to see it with all black scanlines and a slow vertical-moving RPG game on an almost solid green background. Should be really easy to spot if there is any noticeable shimmering caused by the scaler.

I still would like to see an option for integer scaling in case it isn't absolutely shimmer-free with scanlines, but I have to admit that I'm impressed by the results in 1080p regardless - and at that resolution a 4K TV shouldn't add additional shimmering when upscaling. Well done, it's much better than I imagined it would be :)


Thanks! Yeah, there's multiple integer modes as well. The scanline generator is capable of generating scanline effects that look good at non-integer scales too. I need to work on captures, as scanlines often get chewed up by Youtube compression.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:47 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Thanks! Yeah, there's multiple integer modes as well. The scanline generator is capable of generating scanline effects that look good at non-integer scales too. I need to work on captures, as scanlines often get chewed up by Youtube compression.


YouTube is really terrible for this yes, so if you have the option to upload a much less compressed video clip somewhere else that would be ideal :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:58 am 


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Mike, sorry if I or someone else asked this earlier, but is scan doubling / 240p120 output possible? I know this device is meant to drive digital panels, but a simple HDMI>VGA converter would allow me to drive a VGA CRT in that mode. Just curious.


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