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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:42 pm 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 1245
Location: Australia
Its not the force of activating the limiting switches youve installed that will kill them, its the high switching current.

You had a freaking arc on your first video what do you think is happening inside those micro switches? The contacts will burn out or get carbon covered in no time.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:27 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 795
Syntax wrote:
I think you have a misunderstanding of the whole 100n cap scenario.

You need one on the board you make if you decide to replace the NAMED board. This is because of the length of cable from sensor to IC.

Any premade gun has that cap there already. You only need it for the above. ^^^


I get that for my Namco guns. They are good as they are. I want to fix the crosshairs jumping on my Dessert eagles. I.e, make them usable.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying about adding caps. I thought you were saying it was a fix for moving crosshairs.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:23 am 



Joined: 21 Jun 2019
Posts: 2
Sorry for bringing this thread back from the dead.

But I have a couple of Questions if it's not an issue.

- Can this Mod be used on a VGA modded PS2?
I want to run my PS2 from which I tapped H and V sync link and disabled sync on GREEN link to a 15Khz Arcade Monitor through RGBHV.
If possible; do I just run the composite plug from the GunCon2 to the H-Sync line or do I need do do something special in order to make it work?

- On the Diagram, Syntax mentions the 470nF caps are safety caps. Is this just a precaution or is it mandatory?
They aren't common here in Belgium, most electronics stores don't have them.

Any help is welcome.

Thanks

@Syntax


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:20 am 


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Location: Australia
I think electros in place of the safety caps are fine, its been ages since i built one.

You could use comp video for the guns sync and it should work fine, Csync works well too.

You would run the comp video or csync line directly to the guns, the HV sync signals would go directly (preferably buffered) to the arcade chassis.
Most arcade chassis will take Csync on the Hsync line fine and separate it later to HV. If you have issues maybe try that and skip HVsync.


Confirmed it doesn't work at all when forced to 31k.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:24 pm 



Joined: 23 May 2018
Posts: 15
Hi Syntax,

Sorry to revive your post, I really like your project, and I'm really curious to know if it would be possible to use it to add a solenoid to a normal GunCon 1?
Would any 24V solenoid work with you circuit? It's a pull type, right? Found a 400mA/25N that would fit nicely in the gun, would that be enough?
Also how powerful would you think the 24V AC needs to be?
Thanks ;)


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:33 pm 


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Location: Australia
Probably easier to use an Ebay 555 circuit.
The guncon 1 has no recoil or track/slide.

You could use a 24v DC(not AC!) Solenoid from a virtua cop 2 cab. Dx recoil something something.

The namco solenoid is designed for a track, the Dx one is for mounting inside a gun.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:13 pm 



Joined: 23 May 2018
Posts: 15
Syntax wrote:
Probably easier to use an Ebay 555 circuit.
The guncon 1 has no recoil or track/slide.

You could use a 24v DC(not AC!) Solenoid from a virtua cop 2 cab. Dx recoil something something.

The namco solenoid is designed for a track, the Dx one is for mounting inside a gun.

Thanks for your answer :)
Oh I see! There are indeed lot of pulse circuit with the 555, I will look into it.

Yeah it doesn't have recoil, I just wanted to go the cheap route like in the aimtrak gun, basically just add a 24V solenoid inside the gun shell to "simulate" the impact.
Buying this kind of solenoid rarely cost more than 15 bucks :P

I meant AC power supply (which output in 24V DC of course), I guess 3~4A would be ok?


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:16 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 795
None of those cheap small eBay solenoids are suitable for full auto recoil. You'll burn them out in a few minutes of play. I burnt out my aimtrak one on the first game with full auto.

The cheapest full auto arcade Solenoid I know of is the Terminator Salvation one. It's probably too large to fit in a guncon shell though. Personally, I would recommend against cheaping out. Do it right, do it once.

If you don't want to invest in a real Time Crisis arcade gun, the next best thing is to use the shell and solenoid off a PS1 jolt gun. They suck as light guns but the shell, slide and solenoid are decent. Just replace the electronics with a time crisis arcade sensor board wired to a Guncon 2 PCB. Just hot glue the sensor board in place and replace the crappy lens from the Jolt gun with a real arcade glass one, or one from the GC2 (the latter needs filing down to fit).

On the electronics, I recommend using one Ne555 relay timer board and a separate ne555 signal generator to activate the solenoid. That way, with careful adjustments, you can make it recoil once with a single press and full auto when you hold it down. This let's you switch weapons in games like Time Crisis 2 and 3 without messing around with a recoil switch.

This is my one in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DatfpMFmIcc

It's also great for pure full auto games like Crisis Zone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0A9BPGN0Pc&t=5s


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:39 am 



Joined: 23 May 2018
Posts: 15
Classicgamer wrote:
None of those cheap small eBay solenoids are suitable for full auto recoil. You'll burn them out in a few minutes of play. I burnt out my aimtrak one on the first game with full auto.

The cheapest full auto arcade Solenoid I know of is the Terminator Salvation one. It's probably too large to fit in a guncon shell though. Personally, I would recommend against cheaping out. Do it right, do it once.

If you don't want to invest in a real Time Crisis arcade gun, the next best thing is to use the shell and solenoid off a PS1 jolt gun. They suck as light guns but the shell, slide and solenoid are decent. Just replace the electronics with a time crisis arcade sensor board wired to a Guncon 2 PCB. Just hot glue the sensor board in place and replace the crappy lens from the Jolt gun with a real arcade glass one, or one from the GC2 (the latter needs filing down to fit).

On the electronics, I recommend using one Ne555 relay timer board and a separate ne555 signal generator to activate the solenoid. That way, with careful adjustments, you can make it recoil once with a single press and full auto when you hold it down. This let's you switch weapons in games like Time Crisis 2 and 3 without messing around with a recoil switch.

This is my one in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DatfpMFmIcc

It's also great for pure full auto games like Crisis Zone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0A9BPGN0Pc&t=5s

That's a very detailed answer, thanks.

I totally agree that not cheaping out is better, and I would if I could, but here in japan strangely they are nearly impossible to come by. You would think it would be easier with all the arcade systems made in japan... Unless I am not searching correctly? I tried every japanese selling website I could, with so many key words, beside very expensive full cabinets, no luck :?
Also the Jolt Gun was never officially released here.
Do you have a reliable source for any of those?

You burnt your aimtrak solenoid? That's the first time I hear someone killing one of those, they are that weak? :D
Is that a common thing? What kind of power supply did you use for it?

I agree the cheap solenoid aren't made to work at the rate of full auto recoil, they need to cool down between each trigger or else they burn out. Also yeah, quality doesn't seem to be great. But if it's really that bad, I guess I can just not use full auto recoil at all ;)
Manual recoil would be already nice for me :P

Oh you can combine 2 ne555 to do that? it sounds pretty cool.
Actually I'm already using an arduino clone as a gun pcb (I'm using Samco program), so maybe I could directly command the MOSFET with one of the unused digital pins?
I wonder how reliable it would be compared to a ne555 timer board.

Do you know which 5V/24V MOSFET and which 24V schottky diode model I would have to use in my case? :D
Looks like the Aimtrak board is also based on that, can you tell me which model of MOSFET/diode they are using?

Thanks for your help :)


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:19 am 


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Location: Australia
The solenoids only heat up when engaged.
My circuit is a 50% duty cycle, and most 555 should fall under the same %.
I've never even heated up a Namco solenoid after hours of leaving it in rapid mode. Those aimtrack ones look the same as a Dx one, any links to others burning them out?


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:51 am 



Joined: 23 May 2018
Posts: 15
Syntax wrote:
The solenoids only heat up when engaged.
My circuit is a 50% duty cycle, and most 555 should fall under the same %.
I've never even heated up a Namco solenoid after hours of leaving it in rapid mode. Those aimtrack ones look the same as a Dx one, any links to others burning them out?

I would be curious to know as well, to be sure not to fry my solenoid on the first use.
Also Syntax, you think to know quite a lot about electronic, do you think a IRL540 MOSFET would work in my case since I want to use the arduino pin instead of the 555?
It seems to be the good model, but I have hard time understanding all the characteristic with my little knowledge in electronic.
There are plenty of cheap IRF520 prebuilt circuits online that would be a lot more convenient, but I've seen that since there are made to work with RDS of 10V, it wouldn't engage the solenoid at full capacity with 5V :?


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:35 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 795
My issue with my Aimtrak Solenoid was from using one of the ArcadeGuns recoil dongles. It's actually a pretty decent device with the best recoil control software for Mame I have seen. The issue is that it only works with Aimtraks and Aimtrak solenoids are not rated for continuous duty.

I was using the recommended 36v 3a psu with the Aimtrak. I asked Andy at Ultimarc about issues with using Aimtraks with those full auto dongles and his response was something along the lines of "I told them to stop selling those things for use with my guns. I told them our solenoids were not designed for full auto". So, I guess I wasn't the first user with issues.

There are two types of solenoids when it comes to duty rating. Those made for continuous duty are designed to be constantly energized. They are usually less powerful and / or larger so they generate less heat. Those rated for momentary usage are usually more powerful but need a break between each cycle. The Ultimarc solenoid is the latter.


On how you activate the solenoid, at lot depends on which one you end up using. The jolt guns use a 12v solenoid which technically could be activated directly by an Ebay Ne555 signal generator (which all have a 12v limit). I use a quality solid state relay between my ne555 signal generator and my 24v Namco Solenoid.

I doubt you'll get reliable activation of an NE555 signal generator with power from a Guncon 2 direct. You can try though. I use a 7v psu for the ne555 signal generator and activate it with an NE555 timer relay board.


Last edited by Classicgamer on Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:45 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 795
Syntax wrote:
The solenoids only heat up when engaged.
My circuit is a 50% duty cycle, and most 555 should fall under the same %.
I've never even heated up a Namco solenoid after hours of leaving it in rapid mode. Those aimtrack ones look the same as a Dx one, any links to others burning them out?



If you used any Solenoid with full auto then you most definitely heated it up. You might not have been able to feel it through the thick plastic but it was there. The heat build up happens when there is insufficient cooling time between each activation. So, there is no way to create convincing full auto recoil while leaving cool-down time between each slide. Convincing means 8-10 cycles per second.

There is a reason why Namco's full Auto only games like Crisis Zone use a motor instead of a solenoid. Time Crisis 2, 3 and 4 all leave ample cool down time by limiting full auto bullets. Crisis Zone doesn't. It's why I prefer to use my Terraburst gun for full auto only games.

The Namco Solenoids are rated for continuous duty and therefore there is no issue using them with full auto though. I.e. They best up, but they are designed to take it, instead of melting. I still like to make sure I leave cool down time to make it last longer.

I can't speak for the original Time Crisis one guns as there is no full auto in those games so I don't know if they used something different. My Time Crisis arcade gun is from a TC2 cab.

The Namco solenoids are twice the size and half the power of the Aimtrak ones. The coil is at least 3 times thicker. It's not the same thing at all. My arcade guns from full auto only games like Op Thunderbolt are twice the size again.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:01 pm 


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13 shots a second for 12 hours = not even warm. Ears were bleeding tho.
Full engage for 10 seconds, hot to touch. Dont lock one up too long or you'll burn it and yourself.

I stopped using solid state relays because their current draw/delay on switching was causing recoil to sometimes not fire or only half recoil.(very rarely but enough to annoy)
That's also somewhat a fault of my single shot design I think though as the 555 isn't actually powered till you pull the trigger. Ill sort it one day...
Mosfets way faster and more sensitive.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:47 am 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 795
There isn't a motor or solenoid anywhere in this world that won't get warm from continuous use. Even if there were zero current, you would get heat from just the metal on metal friction of the plunger. It's physics. But, heat isn't a problem if the solenoid is built to handle it.

A failure to engage with a solid state relay is usually due to insufficient power on the trigger side. I guess they can still break but they don't have the mechanical part failure found in regular relays.

I currently use a 9v psu to run the ne555 signal generator and trigger the solid state relay. It has never failed to engage. I activate the 555 signal generator with a micro-USB powered(5v) 555 timer / relay board. I could replace the timer board with a mosfet trigger but I use the pot on the timer to make it recoil once with a single trigger pull and full auto when held down.

Without the additional timer relay board, I couldn't stop it recoiling more than once with a single trigger pull. I wanted to make sure I could play TC2 and 3 without needing a semi / full auto recoil switch.

BTW I use this type of dc-DC solid state relay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Solid-St ... Sw9G9dG8PH

I've built enough of these now to know there is more than one way to skin this cat but, with any design, the quality of the parts dictates reliability. Relays are not all equal.

The SSR is necessary for me as the ebay 555 signal generators are 12v max and the Namco guns use a 24v psu. I assume you built your 555 board to engage the 24v solenoid directly?

Or, Do you use a second mosfet between your 555 signal generator and the solenoid?


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:39 am 


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There is only 1 Mosfet, and its used inplace of the SSR. Cheaper and faster. Just lacks full isolation but that's never been an issue for me.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:41 pm 



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The SSR on my circuit goes after the ne555 signal generator. I don't think it would be possible to use it in place of your mosfet as a trigger because there isn't enough power on the Guncon 2 pcb to activate an SSR directly.

It sounds like you use a mosfet in place of my powered 555 relay timer board. Your circuit is definitely neater. Your 555 signal generator activates the solenoid directly and there is enough power to activate a mosfet on the GC2 board. You probably only need one psu for recoil.

I've never been sure if it is possible to use a mosfet in place of my SSR. I chose an SSR because a regular mechanical relay can't survive the rapid on / switching from full auto. The mosfet board is one of the things that broke when using my Aimtrak recoil gun in full auto. I wasn't sure if it was from the heat or the rapid on / off.

I got some ready built isolated mosfet trigger boards off ebay a while ago and I want to try it on the trigger side in place of my timer board at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:20 am 


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You literally blew my mind with this project. Its freaking Amazing!!!


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:19 am 


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Shelcoof wrote:
You literally blew my mind with this project. Its freaking Amazing!!!


Thanks dude :) they are alot of fun


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:57 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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Yeah the Syntax mod is the definitive Namco arcade gun to home light gun project. I borrowed a bunch of ideas from it. It's a national treasure!

I particularly like the idea of using a db15 or DB9 port to connect the gun sensor so you can use it with multiple light gun PCBs. I only have mine hooked up to a GC2 pcb currently but I plan to make it work with a GC1 board and possibly a Konami gun.

You can get third party guns with the guncon / normal switch but they all suck.

The other idea I borrowed is using a light gun recoil box for the connections. This is necessary as most light gun games require multiple buttons to make them work but the Namco arcade guns only have a trigger. I added 3 buttons on my box (A, B and start) plus a port for the pedal (wired to the bottom of grip button on the GC2). You can't get passed gun calibration on TC3 or continue on Ninja Assault without those extra buttons.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:43 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 795
I finally finished my Crisis Zone recoil machine gun (aside from finding a hose for the wiring). This one uses a Konami Terraburst arcade rifle converted to Guncon 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oifyM2Wiruk

These shells are awesome for a GC2 conversion as they can fit an unmodified GC2 pcb (after some minor dremel work) so you retain the superb accuracy and crosshair stability of the official Namco guns.

The recoil motor in them is fantastic. I'd buy a bunch of them if they weren't so hard to find intact. The brass knocker makes the whole rifle shake back and forward when it recoils. It feels way better than my solenoid guns (in full auto) and is way easier to set up. You can use just a regular relay.

Not the easiest guns to make a video of though as you really need two hands for the gun and a third for the camera. I have my pedal button on the front grip for now, so my video sucks....


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:50 am 


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Looks like it cuts out on the lower part of the screen, do you have issues playing point blank adventure mode? ( there's a button on the lower part after a fight that you cant hit with certain setups)


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:36 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:


I can see the vibration and I'm sure it would add a great deal to the experience. Must be a real joy to play with :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:11 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 795
Syntax wrote:
Looks like it cuts out on the lower part of the screen, do you have issues playing point blank adventure mode? ( there's a button on the lower part after a fight that you cant hit with certain setups)


It seems to be OK with Crisis Zone, even on challenge mode which also has targets on the lower screen corners. I'm sure it's just my shaky hand while filming and the bright light shining on the screen for the camera. I have never really had any issues with an official Guncon2 on any crt monitor though. The crosshairs remain steady all the way to the edges and I don't even need to adjust the brightness usually like you do with 3rd party guns.

The monitor in the video is the most potentially problematic of all of my CRTs as it's larger and not as bright as my others, so it's good for testing light guns. The only sort of issue I have noticed (with that monitor specifically) is that you can't stand as far back with a GC2 as I can with the amplified sensor in my TC arcade gun. That usually doesn't matter as the GC2 USB cable is not that long. I just like to set myself a little extra challenge sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: One Lightgun to rule them all?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:40 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 795
Shelcoof wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:


I can see the vibration and I'm sure it would add a great deal to the experience. Must be a real joy to play with :lol:


It really is. Full auto games never feel right to me when played with a pistol. Using a large recoil rifle makes it feel a lot more like the arcade, especially as the Crisis Zone coin-on uses a large machine gun with a similar recoil mechanism. I have my eye on one of those next...


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