PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

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Lawfer
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PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by Lawfer »

Hello,

I keep reading contradicting information about this, basically some people say:

1. You shouldn't delete anything because the PS3/PS4 don't have TRIM and therefore no way of doing garbage disposal (so basically the deleted data would be "thrown away" so you won't see it anymore but it just won't be disposed off, kinda like deleting something on your computer but not emptying the trash bin), and others say:

2. That "1" is outdated information as newest SSDs already have garbage disposal functions built in so they don't need TRIM.

I have installed Samsung 860 SSDs in my PS3 and PS4, so say if I would like to delete an installed game on my PS4, would that be alright or it's better not to?
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ASDR
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by ASDR »

Interesting.

First, considering how small SSDs typical are (512GB - 1TB) and how large games and patches on the PS4 are (25-50+ GB) it seems inevitable that you have a fair amount of deletion happening anyways.

I have Crucial MX300 SSDs in a few old Macs and PS4s. Those have a kind of TRIM-like consolidation / cleanup feature that happens independent of the OS. The prerequisite for this to work is that the SSD is idle for quite some time and is not put to sleep. So Crucial recommends to disable power management so the SSD actually gets the chance to do its internal cleanup. I have no idea how this would work on the PS4. I guess the PS3/4 host OS doesn't have TRIM since Sony doesn't sell a SKU with an SSD and if your console is never idle for a few hours or puts the disk to sleep, I could see how this might cause issues over time.
ZellSF
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by ZellSF »

Trim is mostly to help with write performance, which is bottlenecked by the PS3/PS4's bluray drives or the network you're downloading the games from anyway.

It seems to have some effect on read speeds too, but I really don't think you'll notice a difference on a PS3/PS4.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by bobrocks95 »

Reading about TRIM on Wikipedia, it improves the lifespan of an SSD and as ZellSF said improves write performance.

It's unlikely you'd ever write enough to a PS3/4 drive to wear out any flash cells, with or without TRIM support.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
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Lawfer
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by Lawfer »

ASDR wrote:considering how small SSDs typical are (512GB - 1TB)
This is kinda outdated information, SSD now can be as big as 4TB. I got myself a 2TB SSD (4TB was too expensive) for PS4 and 512GB for PS3 (main issues is that for PS3 alot of games are Disc-only, so I would only be installing the few games that interest me and that are available as digital downloads and the rest I will use the physical copies, while on PS4 all the games install on your HDD/SSD wether they are digital or physical). Also, SSD shouldn't be filled compltely, you should leave 25% of unused space and PS4 uses ~208GB for the OS and reserved space, also you don't actually get 2TB, you get less than that.

ASDR wrote:and how large games and patches on the PS4 are (25-50+ GB) it seems inevitable that you have a fair amount of deletion happening anyways.
My plan is to NEVER delete games, especially for PS3 since the full library is available and no new games are going to come out, so I know exactly which games I want.

On PS4 it is more difficult because all games are to be installed, the library is quite big and games are still comming out, so it is a little bit hard to plan for how much space you are gonna need in the end.
PC Engine Fan X!
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

Take for example, just the PS4 game of Gran Turismo Sport takes a whopping 77+gb of hdd space easily aside from using the GTS blu-ray disc itself to load/boot up the game anyways. Plus whatever other GTS updates, upgrades & d/l's that Polyphony Digital plans to release in the nearby future, that precious hdd space fills up mighty fast these days. Crazy but true.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
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Lawfer
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by Lawfer »

PC Engine Fan X! wrote:Take for example, just the PS4 game of Gran Turismo Sport takes a whopping 77+gb of hdd space easily aside from using the GTS blu-ray disc itself to load/boot up the game anyways. Plus whatever other GTS updates, upgrades & d/l's that Polyphony Digital plans to release in the nearby future, that precious hdd space fills up mighty fast these days. Crazy but true.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
Yeah this is why I try to avoid big games like that, space is limited and expensive so a game has to be really fantastic for me to decide to install a 50GB+ on an expensive SSD like that.

I actually started listing games install sizes, patch sizes and DLC size:
Blue Reflection with update, Latest version 1.01, update size from 1.00 to 1.01 270.4 Mb, install size with 1.01 19.35 GB

Chaos;Child with Update, Latest Version 1.01, Update size 1.00 to 1.01 1.39 GB, Install size with 1.01 9.08 GB

Deception IV: The Nightmare Princess, Latest Version 1.01, Update size from 1.00 to 1.01 541.3 MB, Install Size with 1.01 2.52 GB

Exist Archive No Update, Install Size 8.13 GB

Final Fantasy X/X-2 HD Remaster with update, Latest Version 1.01, update size from 1.00 to 1.01 32.58 Mb, install size with 1.01 31.86 GB

Gravity Rush Remastered No Update, Install Size 9.90 GB

Mighty No 9 No Update, Install Size 2.19 GB, Add-On DLC Vermilion Destroyer Size 84.1 MB, Install Size with Vermilion Destroyer 2.27 GB

Nights of Azure No Update, Install Size 8.20 GB

Nights of Azure 2: Bride of the New Moon with update, Latest version 1.01, update size from 1.00 to 1.01 119.4 MB, Free DLC Bonus Costum Timoid restrains 36.7 MB, Free Sidestory DLC, install size with 1.01 and all 3 DLC

Odin Sphere Leifthrasir with update, Latest version 1.01, update size from 1.00 to 1.01 63.18Mb, install size with 1.01 3.62 GB

Tales of Berseria No Update, Install Size 12.40 GB

The Last of Us Remastered, Latest Version 1.09, update size from 1.00 to 1.09 368.2 MB, Install size with 1.09 44.47 GB

The Nonary Games with Update, Latest Version 1.01, Update size 1.00 to 1.01 a few Kbs, Install size with 1.01 2.75 GB

The Silver Case with update, Latest Version 1.03, update size from 1.00 to 1.03 1.45Gb, install size with 1.03 6.76 GB

Tokyo Xanadu eX+ with update, Latest version 1.02, update size 1.00 to 1.02 51.06 MB, Install size with 1.02 5.74 GB

Resident Evil 4 No Update, Install Size 8.99 GB

Resident Evil 5 No Update, Install Size 16.94 GB

Resident Evil 6 No Update, Install Size 17.22 GB

Resident Evil Revelations No Update, Install Size 18.26 GB

Steins;Gate 0 with update, Latest version 1.01, update size from 1.00 to 1.01 about 15Mb, install soze with 1.01 6.71 GB

Summon Night 6: Lost Borders No Update, Install Size 7.87 GB

Uncharted: The Nathan Drake's Collection with update, Latest version 1.02, update size 1.00 to 1.02 1.01Gb, Install size with 1.02 44.52 GB

Until Dawn With Update, Latest Version 1.03, Update Size from 1.00 to 1.03 8.67Gb, Install size with 1.03 47.87 GB

Star Ocean Integrity and Faithlessness No Update, Install Size 29.68 GB

WhiteDay: A Labyrinth Named School with update, Latest version 1.07, update size from 1.00 to 1.07 3.09Gb, install size with 1.07 9.97 GB


Digital-only PS4 Games:

Romancing SaGa 2 Latest Version 1.00, Install Size 1.61 GB

God Eater Resurrection Latest Version 1.01, Install Size 7.54 GB

I am Setsuna. Latest Version 1.02, Install Size 1.61 GB
bobrocks95 wrote:Reading about TRIM on Wikipedia, it improves the lifespan of an SSD and as ZellSF said improves write performance.
It improves write performance because it is tidying things up, like the garbageman coming in the front of your house and emptying your trash bin, image if you keep throwing things in trash can and piling them in front of your house but the garbeman never comes to dispose of them, this is basically an SSD without TRIM or and an OLD HDD computer without defragmentation.

It will "clog" and slow down the performance your PC and will most likely dimish the lifespan of the SSD, however some people claim that newer SSD have built-in "garbage disposal" function integrated so TRIM support is not critical anymore as it used to be for older SSDs.

It is known that SSD can only take a limited amount of writes in them, however I don't plan to install and delete tons of stuff and beside the Samsung 860 SSDs have a big endurance so writing and dleting shouldn't be an issue, the problem is in the PS4/PS3 lack of TRIM, I don't know if the SSD that I installed really do have some TRIM-Like function like some people said online.
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ASDR
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by ASDR »

Lawfer wrote:This is kinda outdated information, SSD now can be as big as 4TB. I got myself a 2TB SSD
There are enterprise SSDs >10GB, but your 2TB SSD probably already cost you more than the entire PS4 itself. Most people would not consider that a realistic option. And what's the benefit anyway? I use a 500GB SSD, that's enough to hold about the last ten retail games I played on the system plus a few downloadable ones and saves, settings etc. That seems perfectly fine?
Lawfer wrote:Yeah this is why I try to avoid big games like that, space is limited and expensive so a game has to be really fantastic for me to decide to install a 50GB+ on an expensive SSD like that.
If your disc space management strategy is a determining factor in which games you play something is wrong. Just play games, if you're console complains your drive is full, delete something you haven't used in a while. That's it.
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Lawfer
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by Lawfer »

ASDR wrote:There are enterprise SSDs >10GB,
A whole 10GB?

ASDR wrote:but your 2TB SSD probably already cost you more than the entire PS4 itself. Most people would not consider that a realistic option. And what's the benefit anyway? I use a 500GB SSD, that's enough to hold about the last ten retail games I played on the system plus a few downloadable ones and saves, settings etc. That seems perfectly fine?
I don't want to delete, I want to install the best PS4 games and keep them forever and with PS4 games being install-dependent deleting a game is like removing it from your library.

Lawfer wrote:Just play games, if you're console complains your drive is full, delete something you haven't used in a while. That's it.
As I explained the issue is a lack of TRIM-support, if it was an SSD installed in a windows PC I would have deleted away since the Samsung 860 2TB Pro has an endurance of 2400 TBW (that's not far off enterprise grade) and TRIM would have taken care of all the clean up, so I don't have to worry about that. On the other hand on PS3/4 what I would have to worry about is the garbage disposal issue (or lack of therefore). I tried to read up on Samsung website if the drive itself had such in-built capabilities, however I have not found such pertaining information on their website.
Last edited by Lawfer on Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
CobraKing
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by CobraKing »

Just curious, but how would one update the firmware on the SSD installed on a PS3/PS4? Would you need to take it out and connect it to a PC?
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ASDR
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by ASDR »

Lawfer wrote:
ASDR wrote:There are enterprise SSDs >10GB,
A whole 10GB?

ASDR wrote:but your 2TB SSD probably already cost you more than the entire PS4 itself. Most people would not consider that a realistic option. And what's the benefit anyway? I use a 500GB SSD, that's enough to hold about the last ten retail games I played on the system plus a few downloadable ones and saves, settings etc. That seems perfectly fine?
I don't want to delete, I want to install the best PS4 games and keep them forever and with PS4 games being install-dependent deleting a game is like removing it from your library.

Lawfer wrote:Just play games, if you're console complains your drive is full, delete something you haven't used in a while. That's it.
As I explained the issue is a lack of TRIM-support, if it was an SSD installed in a windows PC I would have deleted away since the Samsung 860 2TB Pro has an endurance of 2400 TBW (that's not far off enterprise grade) and TRIM would have taken care of all the clean up, so I don't have to worry about that. On the other hand on PS3/4 what I would have to worry about is the garbage disposal issue (or lack of therefore). I tried to read up on Samsung website if the drive itself had such in-built capabilities, however I have not found such pertaining information on their website.
Are you basically concerned that once Sony switches off PSN you won't be able to play your games anymore since without the patches and DLC what you got on the disc is broken and incomplete? Because otherwise I don't really understand why you're going to such lengths to avoid the reinstall procedure for old/infrequently used games.

I wouldn't be so concerned about the lack of TRIM. Worst-case scenario, you get your SSD into some super-fragmented degenerated state and you have to back it up to a USB HDD, format it with your computer & restore.
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by nmalinoski »

CobraKing wrote:Just curious, but how would one update the firmware on the SSD installed on a PS3/PS4? Would you need to take it out and connect it to a PC?
Yes, you'd need to use a PC. There's no way you're going to update it when it's still in the console, unless the console can be hacked to run Linux or something, which is beyond what most people are capable of doing or want to do.
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by CobraKing »

nmalinoski wrote:
CobraKing wrote:Just curious, but how would one update the firmware on the SSD installed on a PS3/PS4? Would you need to take it out and connect it to a PC?
Yes, you'd need to use a PC. There's no way you're going to update it when it's still in the console, unless the console can be hacked to run Linux or something, which is beyond what most people are capable of doing or want to do.
Gotcha. So you'd probably have to format it too in or hope that the PS3/PS4 maintains the NTFS format.
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by nmalinoski »

CobraKing wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
CobraKing wrote:Just curious, but how would one update the firmware on the SSD installed on a PS3/PS4? Would you need to take it out and connect it to a PC?
Yes, you'd need to use a PC. There's no way you're going to update it when it's still in the console, unless the console can be hacked to run Linux or something, which is beyond what most people are capable of doing or want to do.
Gotcha. So you'd probably have to format it too in or hope that the PS3/PS4 maintains the NTFS format.
If the PS4 is anything like the PS3, it requires the internal disk (This discussion -is- about the internal disks, right?) to be formatted (Probably ext4) and encrypted so it can only be used by that specific console; if you tried to move it to a different console, or inserted a disk that wasn't formatted and encrypted by that console, the console would force you to wipe and format the disk.

Now, your desktop won't need to understand the filesystem in order to update the firmware. I've done this with a Samsung 840 EVO that I had in my PS3; I pulled it out, attached it to one of my Windows machines, booted, updated the firmware using the SSD utility, then powered off the PC and put the SSD back in my PS3, and it booted without any data loss.
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by ZellSF »

Why would you bother updating firmware unless you have issues? Especially on consoles, where any performance increases from firmware updates will be lost in other bottlenecks anyway?
Lawfer wrote:As I explained the issue is a lack of TRIM-support, if it was an SSD installed in a windows PC I would have deleted away since the Samsung 860 2TB Pro has an endurance of 2400 TBW
You are not going to kill your SSD by writing too much to it. This is a non-worry, especially on consoles where there aren't many opportunities to do the massive amounts of writes required to kill SSDs.

Maybe in 10 years, where replacements will be much cheaper anyway.
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by クリスチャン »

All modern SSDs have garbage collection. Whether the PS3 or PS4 support TRIM is really a non-issue. TRIM is there to provide hints to the SSD's controller so it can perform garbage collection before a write occurs; this helps performance and endurance. However, it's not a big issue with consoles because you're mainly writing to the drive during the install process which is bottlenecked by Blu-Ray drive read speed and secondly CPU decompression speed. As far as SSD write endurance goes, they typically last much longer than you think and since you're not installing games 24/7 for years on end it's a non-issue.
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Lawfer
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Re: PS4 and PS3 Samsung SSD, Safe to Delete Installed Games?

Post by Lawfer »

クリスチャン wrote:All modern SSDs have garbage collection.
Thanks for the confirmation, that's what I wanted to know.
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