GD: Under Defeat Scoring

[it290]

There's no advantage to killing enemies "fast", especially if you're doing it with regular gunfire instead of an Option. Obviously wiping out an enemy quickly has its advantages, but you're going to get the same amount of points whether the enemy is at the top of the screen or at the bottom. For maximum points you kill an enemy with the Option, that's it.

Well, more enemies do appear if you destroy things quickly, so there is some advantage. On the stage 3 midboss for example, if you take him out quickly you can get 3 (or 4? can't remember) option carriers to appear, resulting in a good 20000+ points that you wouldn't get otherwise. I believe some of these 'extra' enemies are necessary to get 100% as well.

[SAM]

On the stage 3 midboss for example, if you take him out quickly you can get 3 (or 4? can't remember) option carriers to appear, resulting in a good 20000+ points that you wouldn't get otherwise. I believe some of these 'extra' enemies are necessary to get 100% as well.

I notice this too. It seems that using a bomb to kill the Stage 3 mid-boss might be a good idea to get more points.

[it290]

Yeah, that's what the guy in the replay does... uses a bomb and just focuses fire on the main cannon, finishing him off with the option (of course). I've been applying this method and not only is it easier, it also nets more points. I'm sure it's doable without a bomb as well, but it might be tough to keep fire trained on the cannon while dodging.

[BBH]

Good point, I tend to just focus fire on the secondary guns on that thing so I can try to avoid bombing it and pick up the bomb at the end of the level for an extra 10k... but by the time I destroy it there's only one or two weapon carriers afterwards. Making four of them appear instead would definitely give a little more points, and be easier. The problem is that I tend to use the Vulcan on 1-3, I don't think it would be as easy to destroy it that quickly without the Cannon. Hmm.

(in case nobody noticed, when the midboss releases those round things that go to the top of the screen and then explode into 7 or 8 bullets, the one in the center will always be aimed directly at you. So all you have to do is wait for the bullets to come out, and then give the ship a quick tap to the left or right to dodge that bullet, the rest will pass right by you. Similarly, that big plane that appears about 1/3 of the way though stage 5 will release little balls that explode into bullets. Watch the colors of the balls, if it's a green ball then none of the bullets will be aimed at you, so just stay motionless when the bullets come out. If it's a purple ball, then the middle bullet will be aimed at you so again give the ship a quick tap to the side to dodge it. Of course this is easier said than done when there's a turret on the ship that's also firing at you. I just thought I'd post this since I had a bitch of a time with that midboss until I paid attention to those colors)

[louisg]

Also, apologies again if this is buried somewhere else in the thread.. but:

Anyone figure out what the % on the VMU is? Is it destruction % of each section or something?

[SAM]

Anyone figure out what the % on the VMU is? Is it destruction % of each section or something?

I had mensioned that well at the very begining (Start of this thread).

That's your contribution % for counting stage clear bonus. I had asked for people to help working out the mission target of each stage by constantly keeping an eye on the % displaying on the VMU.

But somehow no one seems to care about that yet.

[louisg]

That's your contribution % for counting stage clear bonus. I had asked for people to help working out the mission target of each stage by constantly keeping an eye on the % displaying on the VMU.

But somehow no one seems to care about that yet.

Hmm that's what I thought it was too, but it seems to really fluctuate and not update very fast..

[it290]

BBH, watching the replay for stage 5 I have noticed that the replay player weaves through the fast gatling gun streams on the boss so that he can focus fire on the guns and take them out quickly. Have you been doing the same? With the speed of the shots it seems incredibly risky, but at the same time it's very easy to get trapped by those guns if you don't do it.

[louisg]

With the speed of the shots it seems incredibly risky, but at the same time it's very easy to get trapped by those guns if you don't do it.

If you stay near the bottom center of the screen it's actually easier, imo, to keep track of the bullets and step through the stream. Crossing the stream at an angle is pretty tough. I've found that a lot of the last boss' attacks after the first part are actually easier to deal with around that position.

[BBH]

With the speed of the shots it seems incredibly risky, but at the same time it's very easy to get trapped by those guns if you don't do it.

If you stay near the bottom center of the screen it's actually easier, imo, to keep track of the bullets and step through the stream. Crossing the stream at an angle is pretty tough. I've found that a lot of the last boss' attacks after the first part are actually easier to deal with around that position.

Agreed, I much prefer to stay towards the middle of the screen when the gatling guns start firing. You do have to do a few more dodges than you would if you went all the way to the left side of the screen, then all the way to the right... but I'm much more confident about being able to dodge the bullets when they're vertical as opposed to at an angle.

When those are firing I'm not really aiming for any gun in particular, I just keep firing. When I have a rocket charged though I try to make sure it hits the middle turret. I hate that thing. Then I focus on the side guns, then the gatling guns if they're still left.

[louisg]

When those are firing I'm not really aiming for any gun in particular, I just keep firing. When I have a rocket charged though I try to make sure it hits the middle turret. I hate that thing. Then I focus on the side guns, then the gatling guns if they're still left.

If you can get it to just fire the center cannon straight down the screen, a quick dodge to the left or right when you see it coming seems to result in a perfect dodge (if you stay at the very bottom of the screen). The ones that always mess me up at least once are those damn pod shooters!

[BBH]

okay, NOW this contribution percentage thing needs to be figured out. I've had two games where I cleared the first loop and didn't go to the 2nd. Here's what I've ascertained so far about this horrible idea of a system.

- Big enemies and background fixtures that are worth a lot of points.... anything that's worth 10k is most likely something that affects contribution.
- Vehicles that don't pose a threat to the player (like the little car that tries to escape at the end of stage 1) affect it too.
- Smaller tanks/copters don't affect it.
- Bosses of course need to be destroyed. I'm not sure if the contribution doesn't go up if you don't kill the boss in time.
- Regarding the original post, there is no way to "save" friendly units. Even if you're destroying all enemies, some tanks that are on your side will blow up on their own.

...yeah. Here's a better listing of what's in each stage, additions/corrections welcome.

1-1 - the main things that seem to affect it here are the stationary cannons that are worth 5000 a pop. Sometimes there are boxes next to them that need to be destroyed too? The medium-sized tank needs to be destroyed entirely (just destroying the top half isn't enough). There is a truck shortly after that tank on the right side of the screen that tries to exit the screen, it makes a big explosion when destroyed. And of course, that little car right at the end that tries to escape to the right.

1-2 - there is a truck that comes out from the right side of the screen at the beginning right before the first boat that definitely needs to be blown up. The "main" parts of every boat in this stage (i.e. the parts that are worth 10k) need to be destroyed. On the battleships, besides the part on the first one that's worth 20k, the only other things that seem to affect contribution are the huge turrets that are worth 10k (meaning that if you don't destroy the smaller ones, it's ok). Oh, and on the boss battleship, when the camera stops scrolling for a while with the screen fixed on the two four-gun turrets and the smaller two-gun turret, there are some helicopters at the bottom of the screen docked on the ship that should be destroyed.

1-3 - haven't figured it out entirely, but I think every medium-to-large tank needs to be destroyed... the midboss too, of course (the secondary cannons on the midboss don't matter). The only tricky part is that at the very end of the level, shortly after the two weapon carriers come out, there is a truck that comes out from the top-right part of the screen and then tries to escape from that bridge. I honestly didn't notice it until fairly recently. Obviously you need to blow that up. I'm probably missing something here seeing how I've gotten 100% before, but other times I apparently missed one or two. I dunno.

1-4 - I really don't know. I came close to the 100% one time but missed one of those 10k turrets (the ones that release the round things that explode into either bullets or lightning bolts). Other times I do really badly and get like 84% even when I'm honestly trying to destroy everything that I think affects it. Help?

1-5 - well... I've gotten 100% before but sometimes I miss it. As usual, take down every big enemy in the level and that should be enough for 100%... but I think there's something I'm missing...

I've got the first two stages down pat, I thought I had 1-3 down too but apparently not yet. The last two are a crapshoot.

Hmm... just realized that maybe the best way to figure out what affects contribution is to watch the "Extra" replays since I believe they get 100% on every level. The contribution percentage would still be shown on the VMU during the replay, right? I should really go try that out now to figure out Stage 4.

Personally though, for most everyone else I would not spend too much time worrying in each game wondering whether or not you're getting 100% contribution, unless of course you're capable of clearing the first loop. Even without the 100% bonus you can still get some decent scores getting Option kills on all the big enemies and finishing bosses quickly (and without much bomb use).



EDIT: SWEET, I THINK I FIGURED OUT WHAT I WAS MISSING.

I said before that the small tanks that are everywhere in the levels don't affect contribution. Well, not quite. In every level except 1-2 (I think, not 100% sure on this!!), there is one little tank that is colored differently from the rest. Guess what? This special tank affects contribution, go figure. The rough location of each tank:

[edit: incorrect information removed]

Jesus I hope somebody else appreciates all this information.

[it290]

Nice info about the differently colored tanks. Makes me wonder if there is more secret stuff hidden in the game (like points from indestructable targets or something like that).

In 1-3, there's another truck near the start of the level (after the first trench and before the second). Also, I think the 'extra' weapon carriers after the midboss might affect %.

In 1-4 and 1-5, I think blowing up the side cannons on the train cars before destroying the main body may have something to do with it. Also there are a lot of missle launchers on 1-4, not sure if those matter.

[BBH]

Nice info about the differently colored tanks. Makes me wonder if there is more secret stuff hidden in the game (like points from indestructable targets or something like that).

I don't know about all indestructable targets, but there are some spots you can shoot (that wall after the midboss on 1-5, the last boss itself) where you get like 10 points a shot if you keep shooting. Not really worth the time, but if there's nothing else going on on the screen...

In 1-3, there's another truck near the start of the level (after the first trench and before the second). Also, I think the 'extra' weapon carriers after the midboss might affect %.

Hmm... not sure if I noticed that truck, might have missed that. The weapon carriers never affect contribution AFAIK.

In 1-4 and 1-5, I think blowing up the side cannons on the train cars before destroying the main body may have something to do with it. Also there are a lot of missle launchers on 1-4, not sure if those matter.

I was thinking those side cannons might affect it too, but then I watched the Extra replay and noticed that he aims a rocket at the center of the train, so I guess not.

I don't think the little missile launchers affect it.

Also, I was wrong about the "mid-sized" tanks, as far as I can tell they usually don't have anything to do with contribution. The only ones that matter are the bigger ones that have three turrets and always fire three bullets at a time.

(on the subject of mid-sized tanks, does anybody know what affects the "type" of tank they are? Like that one at the beginning of stage 2. I guess it's completely random?)

at any rate, I'm pretty confident I can get 100% on the first three stages now as well as 1-5, so even if I fuck up 1-4 a little bit then I should still be able to get the second loop reliably. Assuming of course I don't have a bad game and die early and not even reach the end, which happens often.

edit: and I've just noticed that there's more than one different-colored tank in 1-1. Whoops. One of them is at the very beginning even!

edit 2: okay fuck, I've now concluded that the locations of the different-colored tanks... are completely random. Seriously. Good luck finding the different-colored tank in 1-4!

[it290]

(on the subject of mid-sized tanks, does anybody know what affects the "type" of tank they are? Like that one at the beginning of stage 2. I guess it's completely random?)

I think it has to do with rank/score, rather than being totally random. I seem to get the 'exploding ball' type more often than the others at that point, but I dunno.

[SuperGrafx]

Regarding the Stage 5 boss, what is the best option type and approach to use? I seem to have the most trouble with this guy, usually burning a credit or two in the process. Is it even possible to finish him off without losing a life??

[BBH]

Regarding the Stage 5 boss, what is the best option type and approach to use? I seem to have the most trouble with this guy, usually burning a credit or two in the process. Is it even possible to finish him off without losing a life??

Of course it's possible, I've done it in practice but haven't managed to 1-life it in a "real" game. Closest I came was dying on the last form when it only needed to get hit by one more rocket, would have 1-lifed the first loop. Oh well.

Rocket is the best Option of course. First form is easy, the bullets move slow enough that dodging them isn't too difficult, just be wary of the small tanks that come out too.

Second form is much tougher, especially when you don't know which turrets it's going to attack with first. If the main cannon in the middle tracks you, try moving to the bottom-left or bottom-right parts of the screen. Then when it stops, move away. You can then dodge the bullets that come out just by moving to the left or the right again. The turrets to the side of the middle cannon give you advance warning when they start firing, the best place to dodge these is in the center of the screen. Just watch the bullets closely and do small taps to dodge the bullets. It is a bit tricky though, if you're not confident in this part use a bomb. The turrets on the side that release the "burst" bullets can be the most annoying, I like to concentrate my Rockets/gunfire on wiping those out as soon as possible. Again, use bombs if you need to.

For the last form, line yourself up at the bottom center of the screen and send the Rocket down the barrel, it's the best way to do damage of course. Once the cannon "loads" you have to start moving left and right to dodge the ensuing blast. Ideally, you still want the cannon to be as close to a vertical orientation as possible, because the position of the cannon determines the angle of the next wave of bullets. Once it fires, move up to the top-left or top-right part of the screen and be ready to dodge or bomb if you think you're going to get hit. When the screen fills with smoke and the rest of the bullets come out, start firing so you can keep track of where your ship is. I highly recommend moving down a bit since it will actually give you more room to dodge, if you stay at the top of the screen you'll hit the invisible "wall" if you move too close to the side and be unable to properly dodge a bullet. Again though, use a bomb if you must. And then move back to the bottom center of the screen and repeat the process. Also, after you fire the first Rocket into the turret, sometimes you have enough time to charge up another Rocket before the parallel lines of bullets come out. If you can charge it, send the Rocket (or crash the Option) into the main part of the boss, it'll still do a little bit of damage. I don't recommend this unless you're sure you have the timing down, plus there are times when the cannon will fire pretty soon after it loads, which won't give you enough time anyway.

[SuperGrafx]

Second form is much tougher, especially when you don't know which turrets it's going to attack with first. If the main cannon in the middle tracks you, try moving to the bottom-left or bottom-right parts of the screen. Then when it stops, move away. You can then dodge the bullets that come out just by moving to the left or the right again. The turrets to the side of the middle cannon give you advance warning when they start firing, the best place to dodge these is in the center of the screen. Just watch the bullets closely and do small taps to dodge the bullets. It is a bit tricky though, if you're not confident in this part use a bomb. The turrets on the side that release the "burst" bullets can be the most annoying, I like to concentrate my Rockets/gunfire on wiping those out as soon as possible. Again, use bombs if you need to.

Ah, that helps somewhat, particularly your suggestions on where to place your ship during the firing barrages. It's primarily the second form that gives me the biggest problem, and I've put some of your suggestions into practice to which I'm seeing some slight improvements.

[dmauro]

(on the subject of mid-sized tanks, does anybody know what affects the "type" of tank they are? Like that one at the beginning of stage 2. I guess it's completely random?)

I think it has to do with rank/score, rather than being totally random. I seem to get the 'exploding ball' type more often than the others at that point, but I dunno.

There is at least some random element to it because I've done level 2 in practice at rank +10 and sometimes I get one, and sometimes the other with the all practice settings set the same.

Are there any tricks for getting your rank down besides dying? What causes your rank to go up? Is it just points, or is it how many guys you've killed, or how many bombs you have left? I really have no idea, but I keep getting into level 3 with too high of a rank.

[Twiddle]

Are there any tricks for getting your rank down besides dying? What causes your rank to go up? Is it just points, or is it how many guys you've killed, or how many bombs you have left? I really have no idea, but I keep getting into level 3 with too high of a rank.

Bomb.

[CIT]

Are there any tricks for getting your rank down besides dying? What causes your rank to go up? Is it just points, or is it how many guys you've killed, or how many bombs you have left? I really have no idea, but I keep getting into level 3 with too high of a rank.

I get to stage three without bombing which leaves me with a full stock. When the first bomb appears in stage 3 I always set one off right before picking it up. Not sure whether bombing really makes that much difference though, I think it might depend more on how many bombs you have in stock, actually.

[SHwoKing]

About Lvl2, at the beginning of the stage there are (random) one or two tank with sort of french flag on the side, on the 2 big boat with a lot of tank and sometimes they come from the cargo boat a bit after...did you think it's a part of thing to destroy for the second loop?

I do not think there are any regular tanks on stage 2 that affect contribution. There is a TRUCK that appears at the beginning of the stage that has to be destroyed though. I haven't noticed anything about flags on the regular tanks, the special tanks that affect contribution are colored slightly differently from the rest.

I'm redirecting this here so that this is in the right place.

I'm 100 % sure there is "Flagged" tanks in Stage 2 (not exactly like french flag cause color are red, white, blue instead of blue, white, red) and i'm 100% they do affect the contribution %. I a later Run, i saw one of them and missed it, causing my contribution % to drop and missing the 100 % for the stage and i rarely miss 100 % in this stage. They worth 500 pts each like green tank in stage 1 and 3.

Oh, and on the boss battleship, when the camera stops scrolling for a while with the screen fixed on the two four-gun turrets and the smaller two-gun turret, there are some helicopters at the bottom of the screen docked on the ship that should be destroyed.

This is not totally accurate. Of course you have to destroy the four green helicopter at the bottom of the screen but there two blue plane at the very bottom of the screen at the same place to destroy. Else no 100 %.
That was my source of 100% miss in this stage.

Just another trick, it is possible to destroy the Stage 3 boss before it is moving at the bottom like said before and it's even possible to rack all the points here by using rocket and destroying both wings at the same time before it goes at the bottom. My Top score in practice there is 230 000 something, the best score possible for this boss i guess.

[SHwoKing]

New strategy to kill the Stage 1 boss with more than 45 sec left :

First shoot a rocket in the middle when he comes in, then shoot the right and left winf as much as possible without destroying them.
Your rocket should be reload now, stop shooting and approach the boss, release the pod in front of him so that the pod explode before launching the rocket.

Now the boss will turn his back, shoot both sides as much as possible without destroying them. Reload the rocket, approach the boss and release the pod on one of the side and BOOM !

My best so far is 45'30

And with this technique i was able to score 292 540 in stage 1 without dying

[CIT]

I've been using that technique you describe on boss 1 as well, also been getting around 00:45 as my best, but it's hard to be consistent, since just a small difference in movement will make the boss react differently. My overall score is only 270-280 though for stage 1. Mind disclosing some of your in-stage scoring points?

[SHwoKing]

It's would be hard to eplain my whole strategy.

First i'm using Vulcan in this stage most of the time except to destroy the last Black cannon. Before that, i switch to rocket.

I think i should record my stage 1 run to show my strategy on this stage.

But i have to buy a record device first

My new Stage 1 best is 293 160 now and i don't think i will do better, maybe a couple of hundred points more and that is all.

[Damocles]

Not really on-topic, but has anyone noticed that the lightning bursts will override any type of shot and target the option? At least it seems that way. I've noticed on several occasions that if I anticipate a turret and release an option, more often than not the turret will quick-detonate a lightning orb with all bolts aimed directly at the option.

[Randorama]

Anyone up for a loop discussion (i.e. BBH, are you still on the game)?

[SHwoKing]

What do oyu want to talk about ?

Strategy on all Stage ?

I think on the first loop, now i've found all the techniques i need to score more than 3 millions for the first loop. Still cannot do it consitantely.

For loop 2, i think the same techniques can be apply but have to be carefull.

Never fought bosses over 2-3 but boss 2-3 is still the same. You can still beat him with full points and no bomb before going at the bottom screen.

I have a technique too for 1-4 boss to beat him ASAP with the rocket. 75 sec left, no bomb, maximum point, work well as well.

And as for the weapon i chose for each stage :

1-1 : vulcan then Rocket at the end :my best 293 560
1-2 : Rocket all the way : my best : 926 000
1-3 : Rocket all the way : my best : 1 496 000
1-4 : Rocket, then vulcan when possible, then Canon before train tourrets then Rocket again : my best : more than 2 100 000 but i can go for
2 150 000 i think
1-5 : Rocket all the way then switch to Canon for Train + the 3 fast bosses (don't know how to call them) then switch back to Rocket for the boss : you can score more than 1 000 000 pts for this stage alone, i think something like 1 150 000 is possible.

I still don't have an accurate strategy for Stage 1-4, it's the most difficult one for scoring : lots of points available, hard to get them all.

For all other stage, my strategy is done.

[Randorama]

What's the strategy for the third boss? I have problems in taking it down before it goes on the tail, has it been discussed before (i.e. am i missing something)?

[Twiddle]

This boss video from the current Under Defeat record-holder shows most of how.

It seems like he just goes all out (with rocket) as soon as it appears. When it starts going down, he uses the rocket to take out both engines at the same time.