ST: 1943

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Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

Pearl wrote:
Podbod wrote:Eric,

Is there a record of that run then? How are you verifying that? TG/marp scores are checked by the community at least so are 'more' trustworthy than just a score on a page somewhere as I'm sure you know.

How would he be getting 11 doubles? I've never seen any information about forcing a double and they almost never (i've never had it out side of save states) spawn naturally.
4 mobi's is ludicrous as well. Most runs I get 0. I've never found a way to force them. As far as I can tell they're just on a frame counter.

Why has he not submitted it to Marp/TG if its so so so much higher than anyone elses score?

Pod
No known video, record was verified/submitted to Arcadia in 2009.

Double = double boss explosion , a bug executed by killing the base of the enemy boat twice via HP carry-over.

JP players don't use TG and very very rarely use MARP.
Ah yeah, i realised after I said that it would probably be the case.

You didn't answer my question tho. I know what a double is. As said, I've just never seen it outside of cheating with a laser and save states. If he's getting it on every ship then how's he doing that given no one on marp has figured out how to do a single one and there's no information anywhere on any forum on how to make it happen? (that I've ever seen anyway) (if its on real hardware - Is his machine malfunctioning?)

How's he getting 4 mobis in one game? That still sounds to me like something you'd get in 1943 Kai. (The 4.1M score thats also listed is a twitter screenshot that only shows the hi score counter for instance, that could easily be Kai as they look identical in that part of the screen!)

You can understand how dubious this sounds with zero proof other than what's printed in a mag. Its the same as all the doubt over old TG scores that dont have videos/screenshots or (in the case of mame records) inp files.

Pod
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

Pearl wrote:
Podbod wrote:No video. No inp file. Scores that I've already shown a decade ago are only possible via save state abuse or a TAS.
You can't claim a WR with a blurry screenshot of just the score as theres zero verification process.
I've also seen loads of sites that mix in kai and original scores without realising.

So the WR is 3.287M as stated on TG and Marp.
I'm the person with that 3.287M score and yes, the 4.40M score by SGP-SV-TNK is the WR.

My run stats were Daihiryuu x 20, Mobi x 2, Double x 0, Dragonfly x 15 (I think Stage 16 does not spawn it.)

SGP's is Daihiryuu x 33, Mobi x 4, Double x 11 (MAX), Dragonfly x 15.

Daihiryuu is 7200pts each (Large plane = 10,000 + 2 Zako = 10,200 | Small plane = 3,000)
13 extra Daihiryuu = 93,600
2 Extra Mobi = 200,000 (293,600)
Assuming SGP got 100% shrapnel (I didnt, being generous ill say I got 50%) = 220,000 (513,600)
Double X 11 (100% Shrapnel) = 440,000 (935,600)
I didnt also know where all of the roots were, this could push SGP's extra score over 1,000,000 which would leave it at 4.287M
The extra score between 4.287 and 4.40 could be obtained easily from some missed enemies on later stages using autofire.
I actually know what you got. You got 32 pieces out of 44. So that'd be 120000 missed.
Theres also not 15 dragon flys are there? Theres a few other stages that dont spawn them.
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Pearl
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Pearl »

Podbod wrote:
Pearl wrote:
Podbod wrote:Eric,

Is there a record of that run then? How are you verifying that? TG/marp scores are checked by the community at least so are 'more' trustworthy than just a score on a page somewhere as I'm sure you know.

How would he be getting 11 doubles? I've never seen any information about forcing a double and they almost never (i've never had it out side of save states) spawn naturally.
4 mobi's is ludicrous as well. Most runs I get 0. I've never found a way to force them. As far as I can tell they're just on a frame counter.

Why has he not submitted it to Marp/TG if its so so so much higher than anyone elses score?

Pod
No known video, record was verified/submitted to Arcadia in 2009.

Double = double boss explosion , a bug executed by killing the base of the enemy boat twice via HP carry-over.

JP players don't use TG and very very rarely use MARP.

You didn't answer my question tho. I know what a double is. As said, I've just never seen it outside of cheating with a laser and save states. If he's getting it on every ship then how's he doing that given no one on marp has figured out how to do a single one and there's no information anywhere on any forum on how to make it happen? (that I've ever seen anyway) (if its on real hardware - Is his machine malfunctioning?)

Pod
marp isnt the end all of score players, just because nobody on marp or tg has figured it out, doesnt mean others cant. i figured it out on my own some time ago, it's just only really feasible with autofire given how much damage needs to be dealt in a short time.

its all routing, just very hard routing.
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

Pearl wrote: marp isnt the end all of score players, just because nobody on marp or tg has figured it out, doesnt mean others cant. i figured it out on my own some time ago, it's just only really feasible with autofire given how much damage needs to be dealt in a short time.

its all routing, just very hard routing.
Well, Marp and TG don't allow autofire. So in that sense it would back up my point that its not doable without cheating (by their rules) and given Mobi might be frame specific then specific routing (which autofire would afford) would also potentially explain how he could get 4xmobi as well as potentially 88 bridge pieces.
I personally think that given the arcade machine doesn't support autofire that means the record shouldn't use it either (i.e I agree with Marp/TG's rules). Which when coupled with the fact that your inp file and video is actually published would mean your score is the WR in my (and many others) eyes.

Pod
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

Oh also, thinking about it, can mobi spawn on the second explosion of a double? If he spawns on the first explosion is he guaranteed on the second maybe?

Pod
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Podbod wrote:Marp and TG don't allow autofire.

I personally think that given the arcade machine doesn't support autofire
MARP and TG are not representative of modern arcade gaming, and are not noteworthy or influential nowadays, particularly with respect to the shmups community. Their rulesets are sometimes ridiculous (see: TG banning the two lowest scoring beginner characters for no good reason on Mr. Driller G) and not up to the standard of the Japanese community that doesn't chase after faux nostalgia pretending they're hardcore for giving themselves repetitive stress injuries. You go to a quality game center in Japan and all the CAVE games will have C-button auto enabled, and many of the older, very uncomfortably button mashy games will have autofire circuits setup, in order to get the best experience. There's also numerous games that are really awful to play without autofire due to the mashing required that are far better with such a thing (Blazing Star for example)

In summary, MARP and TG are not role models. If you want to hammer the same button in a looping game that takes an hour to clear (or nearly two hours in Halley Comet's case for the counterstop), be my guest, but injuring your fingers for the sake of a videogame is not worth it. DON'T MAKE POOR LIFE CHOICES FOR SHMUPS
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

I think that's partly nonsense to be honest.
Its perfectly fine to distinguish between people using auto fire and people who aren't in the same way we accept people who do TAS's without being negative towards any specific group.
If you want to use auto fire to completely break some games and/or shift the difficulty from one skill set to another skill set then be my guest but that doesn't diminish the scores of people who don't use it.
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

BTW, I'm not going to go into the rabbit hole of the authenticity of tg/Marp. The cheating scandals are well known but we don't have many other choices do we. (do we?)
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Podbod wrote:I think that's partly nonsense to be honest.
Its perfectly fine to distinguish between people using auto fire and people who aren't in the same way we accept people who do TAS's

If you want to use auto fire to completely break some games
It's extremely disingenuous saying it's fine using autofire only to equate it to TASing or "completely breaking some games". This kind of misunderstanding is why MARP and TG's attitudes are archaic, and therefore largely irrelevant. The cheating scandals aren't even why they're irrelevant; it's because the standards they cling to are not how any serious players play the game (i.e. the people who are setting actual world records).

In fact, many arcade world records do have separate Autofire Off and On categories, so there's nothing wrong with tracking whether or not you use it. Many of the (often Japanese) record holders for a game hold both records: https://shmups.wiki/library/STG_Hall_of_Records

Note that places that record scores in Japan such as Arcadia and Gamest often (sadly) don't have videos. They're often being played on an actual arcade PCB at a game center which may not have recording requipment hooked up (and I think I've heard Japanese game centers have rules about where recordings can be released which makes it tougher to find footage online but I could be misremembering), but generally speaking there's limited reason to doubt the authenticity of these scores. It's exceptionally rare that scores are considered invalid, but they do periodically get corrections as players continue to play and information about games improves. For instance:
Note: Gamest magazine (September 1989) lists a score of 25,764,100 by FACILITY-ARIS. This score was deemed impossible in JHA issue July 2020 and subsequently removed from the database. Read the official statement here: https://twitter.com/JHA_information/sta ... 7700174849
Denying the use of autofire in your rules set (especially for a game like Giga Wing where it's a convenience but doesn't change the game due to modest tap speed needed to hit the firing rate cap) isn't just a matter of taste either. Autofire in shmups is an accessibility feature; many older games are painfully button mashy, and not everyone's a teenager or in their early twenties. With button mashing being viewed as archaic in many of the modern ports of these games that offer autofire, why demand it on official scoreboards? Why not make the games more inviting to everyone, even people with arthritis or other joint issues? I mean sure, they could just go play a game with built in autofire like Omega Fighter, Espgaluda, etc, but why not offer the best possible experience of the game for everyone?

This isn't terribly relevant but I also think it's ridiculous to require button mashing in a game where the plane is equipped with a machine gun.
Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

It depends on the game though right? Using autofire in 1943 makes the game trivial (its hardly a difficult game for the most part anyway) and opens up a bug that can only be exploited by autofire in the first place and is then required to get a top score. That to me seems broken. Its quite possible that's a minority of games but its still a thing
Again, i'm not shitting on anyone who wants to play that way. If the majority want to do that its fine. I happily accept the WR for 1943 with autofire is 4.4M and that to the best of our knowledge Eric holds the Non-autofire WR.

Also, Your stance seems to be that not allowing autofire in games that didnt have it should just be forgotten about because it turns people away from the game. But I think that's a different discussion to the one we're actually having. If we're talking about records then we're not talking about casuals/newcomers who want to pick up a game as those people arent going to pick up a brand new game and instantly want to set the WR (and 99.99% of them wont ever be able to do that). I'm only really talking about having a level playing field for those few that do want to test themselves against recognised scores, admittedly that's a very very small minority. As such TG/Marp seem to be the only decent options (and they're not great as we've touched on). That Wiki page that keeps getting linked is worthless in that respect as it doesnt have any info on settings almost no media to verify and as pointed out in the case of the 4.1M no dragonfly 1943 record is a screengrab of a tiny bit of the screen that doesn't even show if its the correct game! That's even before we get onto the issues with comparing hardware to mame and its ever improving (well for the most part) emulation accuracy (thats a whole discussion in itself that is also a big issue with TG's mame stuff and Marp)

Still. I feel we're rather off track from this pages topic :D
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Podbod wrote:It depends on the game though right?
Of course. There's nothing wrong with wanting to compete specifically for an Autofire Off score category if you prefer. In games where autofire is recognized to have a HUGE impact it's quite common to have an Autofire Off and On as separate categories, or to require a note specifying if it was used or not. For instance, Darius Gaiden allows up to 30 hz autofire which is VERY powerful and clearly different from holding or tapping the button at a modest speed (though button mashing really does help with damage, the attract demo shows an absurdly fast autofire rate that's not humanly achievable, I recommend playing it with something that's reasonably doable like 8.57 hz).
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

Which is kinda what I've been arguing all along. Autofire does have a huge impact in 1943 but isn't noted on the wiki (maybe it is mentioned in the Arcadia where it was published?) :D
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Rastan78
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Rastan78 »

According to Gemant's score database, that 1943 record was done with autofire on.

I think the idea of developers intentions and autofire is an interesting topic. A lot of times that's where people who don't like autofire come from. That feeling of well if the dev wanted it that way it would have been default. Therefore it shouldn't be allowed.

Its really more of a grey area than that though, IMO. Autofire was common enough in Japan that even if it couldn't be considered completely standard issue on all cabs, devs in Japan would've had to be living under a rock not to realize arcades would install it.

Too bad we don't have more anecdotes of devs actually addressing that topic. The only one I've come across about a game that's somewhat controversial in that respect is Gun Frontier, and they stated they were cool with ops installing auto and attempted to adjust the dynamic rank system with that in mind. So there is at least some precedent of allowing for the existence of auto circuits in a game's design even if it's not in the default config.
Last edited by Rastan78 on Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sumez
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Sumez »

It makes perfect sense to separate autofire scores and not, especially for a game where autofire allows straight up glitch tricks to improve your scores as is the case with 1943. I never even knew about the double bonus until Pearl told me about it, because I've never in my life seen anyone play that game with autofire circuits.

Though at the end of the day, when your score primarily comes down to grinding for a bonus with a 1/16 chance of appearing, there's probably a limit to how seriously people will take scoring competitions in that game.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Rastan78 wrote:The only one I've come across about a game that's somewhat controversial in that respect is Gun Frontier, and they stated they were cool with ops installing auto and attempted to adjust the dynamic rank system with that in mind.
Having 1CC'd that game recently, I can say that the rank effect the game has when using autofire is massively overstated. I'd heard remarks that claim Gun Frontier becomes nigh-unplayable and punishes you for using autofire, which based on my experience is untrue. The default firing speed is horrendously slow and mashy (as is the ship movement speed) and playing it with autofire is a blessed relief that helps at several spots in the game. Rank maxes out at like Stage 3 or 4 with autofire but is perfectly manageable, with most of the difficulty in the game coming from your ship's relatively slow speed (the hitbox isn't gigantic but you're slow as molasses). You gotta really plan your movements.

The aesthetic's neat but the game's no Metal Black.
Sumez wrote:Though at the end of the day, when your score primarily comes down to grinding for a bonus with a 1/16 chance of appearing, there's probably a limit to how seriously people will take scoring competitions in that game.
Very true. Hasn't stopped crazy players from doing it though. Same applies to the few games out there that give random extends, which also happen to be worth a ton of points for end of game bonuses. X_x
Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

Rastan78 wrote:Too bad we don't have more anecdotes of devs actually addressing that topic. The only one I've come across about a game that's somewhat controversial in that respect is Gun Frontier, and they stated they were cool with ops installing auto and attempted to adjust the dynamic rank system with that in mind. So there is at least some precedent of allowing for the existence of auto circuits in a game's design even if it's not in the default config.
Well 1943 actually includes a weapon that is a literal autofire so I'm pretty sure the devs made the 3 way not auto by design to balance it. :D
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Sumez wrote:Though at the end of the day, when your score primarily comes down to grinding for a bonus with a 1/16 chance of appearing, there's probably a limit to how seriously people will take scoring competitions in that game.
Very true. Hasn't stopped crazy players from doing it though. Same applies to the few games out there that give random extends, which also happen to be worth a ton of points for end of game bonuses. X_x
I'm not crazy but games with low players gives me more chance of actually getting a top score due to the lower number of interested players :D I'd have no hope at most games but I have 2 TG top scores on games no one cares about :D (although that was 7 at one point)
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Rastan78
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Rastan78 »

Sumez wrote: :arrow: Though at the end of the day, when your score primarily comes down to grinding for a bonus with a 1/16 chance of appearing, there's probably a limit to how seriously people will take scoring competitions in that game.
You might be underestimating how insane certain score chasers might be lol. Look at what crazy RNG requirements some speedrunners will subject themselves to (poor bastards).

I've thought about that topic lately too. I used to just think random luck based score elements = bad design. Now sometimes I think luck rewards the player with the coolest nerves when they finally see that once in 20 credits level of lucky drops. Or maybe a certain level of notorious jank in certain games just adds to their mythical status. Are some of today's game with their infinite patches almost too balanced to have that weirdness!?

The guy who has a bunch of the Darius (notorious random silver medals) Gaiden records talked about when trying for a new score, playing the first four levels and resetting if the random medals weren't good enough for WR. Boring and lame? (Probably)

But the flip side of that is the exhilaration of going into the last stages thinking oh shit this is it. Then boom another good drop, so at the final boss you're under total pressure. At the end of the day it raises the stakes quite a but. Yet I totally see how most players meet a 1/16 chance for a bonus as a big well fuck playing that game for score.

Isn't it Aero Fighters 2 where you have to get a lucrative random final boss to show up to get the best score? OK maybe that is pretty bad?
Well 1943 actually includes a weapon that is a literal autofire so I'm pretty sure the devs made the 3 way not auto by design to balance it. :D
Good point.

@Sumez, yeah the Gun Frontier dev stated that the rank really has more to do with other factors IIRC and even said he couldn't remember what they all were lol.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Podbod wrote:Well 1943 actually includes a weapon that is a literal autofire so I'm pretty sure the devs made the 3 way not auto by design to balance it. :D
So what? Button mashing wore out arcade buttons faster, thus allowing parts suppliers to get more money off replacement parts. Don't assume this is a game element that existed purely for "game balance" reasons. Increased wear and tear is yet another reason it sucks.

At any rate, there are far better ways to do weapon balancing than to demand one weapon require button mashing. This is a really, really poor form of "balance" that comes down to a player's physical endurance or joint health, rather than simply tweaking the weapon's damage and built in autofire rate. Omega Fighter figured this out just fine and was made only a couple years later in 1989, having full auto for both its thin shot and wideshot.

For the record, the definitive "button mashing as a game mechanic" games would be Irem's Thunder Blaster as Yumekobo's Blazing Star... and both of those play much better with autofire, allowing you to focus on the bullet cancelling subweapon best in Thunder Blaster, and the scoring elements in Blazing Star respectively. Button mashing has never been a good design element in a shmup, not even in the games where it was meant to be a central element. Pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of "mashing is good" in shmups.
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Podbod wrote:Well 1943 actually includes a weapon that is a literal autofire so I'm pretty sure the devs made the 3 way not auto by design to balance it. :D
So what? Button mashing wore out arcade buttons faster, thus allowing parts suppliers to get more money off replacement parts. Don't assume this is a game element that existed purely for "game balance" reasons. Increased wear and tear is yet another reason it sucks.
As a game dev myself I really dont think the capcom devs were thinking about button sales when they designed 1943. For one why make 2 auto based weapons at all then? I think you're stretching a bit there.
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Sumez
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Sumez »

I've never played Blazing Star with autofire, and found it perfectly enjoyable (and honestly, 1943 is too)
Gotta admit it actually bothered me a little when I went to check out how better players approached the final boss's random bullet spray, and it turned out they just use autofire to finish it off before it even happens. :P

And you guys are probably overthinking how much thought Capcom put into arcades having autofire circuits when they made 1943.
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by RadiantAnsel »

Podbod, while I understand your whereabouts and doubts about the true world record (The one registered on Arcadia), I should point you out that games like this with little to no known information work like that, but that's how a lot of WR in Japan (and maybe other countries were gotten), by hidding a real secret that could broke the scoring in a way, XEXEX world record was gotten in 2005, and ***ABSOLUTELY NO ONE*** knew how a player could get 10mil, when in reality, in a very good way, trying to score and milk the most profitable enemies, you can get 2.45mil or similar (This is a personal PB, 2 loops and all), it wasn't until recently when the game breaking bug was discovered, and YOU STILL NEED RNG on your side to get multiple extends to do a proper 10mil (probably even loop the game twice to spawn the first stage twice).

The same might be happening in this game, but I'm not very good at 1943 to properly make an answer.

But the score was verified at Arcadia, and let me tell you, getting a score verified in Japan is not even easy, you even have to talk to actual staff of an actual arcade for them to make all sorts of paperwork to make the score being valid to a magazine talk about it.

And... no, autofire is not cheating... Period, never will be
No fails are allowed.
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Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

I think I already covered all of this before but when I said that it was cheating I was talking in relation to TG/Marp rules. I'm fine for it to be the WR in the autofire category. I think I made my case for why 1943 should have a auto and non-auto category due to the way the game is fundamentally changed by the addition of autofire and makes realistic scores jump from 3.4M ish to 4.4M.

Most of my confusion was because people kept linking the wiki page which has no info about the score at all other than stating he used the dragonfly bonus to get it. There's no mention of autofire and there's no mention of default settings etc.
I stand by my points about transparency. Scores recorded in secret with no standardised ruleset or data proof aren't good ways to keep records. That might be the way they do it in Japan but it just breeds suspicion and doesn't make it a fair playing field. It also limits score progression which i dont agree with (you don't see this method of secrecy with other record types, they don't run the 100m behind closed doors and then just say "well the official tiimed Bolt at 9.7s so that's now the WR!). (Note, I briefly searched for the issue of Arcadia in question but I cant find it, maybe it has all this info in it that i'm talking about as I know an older page with the 4.4M on it has the number of items he shot down listed. The wiki doesn't have even that).

Tldr, its not cheating, I dont agree with the way scores are recorded that way in the modern digital storage age and I accept it as the autofire enabled WR.

Shall we leave it there?

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Sumez
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Sumez »

Your assessment is fair, and I think the distinction you're looking for here is that the score in question probably wasn't recorded "in the modern digital storage age"

Although the typical narrative is that TG is just a big joke, there's definitely some merit to the way they do some things. The rules they follow for some tracked games don't necessarily make sense, but they are all based on whoever started that track in the first place, so that's more of a community thing than a TG thing.
In general TG rules tend to gravitate towards two points - keeping in the spirit of the game (like if an unintended exploit allows you to simply repeat the same trick ad nauseam, or not care about all the mechanics put into the game with the actual intention of scoring), and avoiding infinite score milking (eg. if a checkpoint gives you enough points to rake in lives faster than you'll spend them).
This is a very different stance from the usual Japanese approach where anything goes, and if the game is exploitable, it's the dev's fault. But I think there's definitely a lot of sense in adhering to a ruleset designed to keep competition as fun and interesting as possible, rather than a contest of breaking the game.

That said, don't expect any shoot'em up scores on TG to be serious. Very few competitive shmup players use that platform for competing.
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Rastan78
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Rastan78 »

The shmup wiki doesn't include all the notes from the original scores ( done in 2005 and 2009 era). I could be wrong, but I believe one of the notes mentions the presence of an infinite pattern. You have to keep in mind that wiki is a secondary source compiling scores from various resources for reference. These original scores would have been done in an arcade setting, verified and submitted by the arcade operator. You could only have a score submitted if it was played in verified arcade on real hardware during business hours. Magazines published the expected settings which would most often be full defaults.
This is a very different stance from the usual Japanese approach where anything goes, and if the game is exploitable, it's the dev's fault.
That's really not the case as more often than not if a game had an infinite pattern or game breaking glitch it would be banned from score collection of any kind. Popular games such as Darius Gaiden and Battle Garegga even fell prey to this. Granted it varies on a game by game basis. Of course that doesn't stop players from competing and posting less official high scores done without using glitches.

The whole idea of a Japanese score seeming impossible is not uncommon. There is a just a much bigger base of skilled players and knowledge over there.

As far as the whole sharing vs not sharing thing it come down more to individual player preference. Many Japanese players do have replays and share info. The player who did that no dragonfly score, DBS, rarely if ever did. He recently retired from scoring but has many WRs where he hasn't shared replays. On his Twitter he said "knowledge is treasure" or something like that.
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Rastan78
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Rastan78 »

Check this out:
https://youtu.be/pk-0t86ucOE

So this is done on 1943 Kai version, but it seems to be a method for infinitely looping the stage? Sorry I don't know how it works or if it applies to the original version.
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

Rastan78 wrote:Check this out:
https://youtu.be/pk-0t86ucOE

So this is done on 1943 Kai version, but it seems to be a method for infinitely looping the stage? Sorry I don't know how it works or if it applies to the original version.
While you can 'technically' do that on the OG version you wouldn't be able to. The shotgun weapon on Kai is 1000x better than the one in OG and it would be required to survive the insane amount of fire thats present on level 16's boss. Besides you cant even get it on that level anyway in OG. :D

Pod
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Rastan78
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Rastan78 »

Why does the stage loop like that tho? Since the notes with those old Arcadia WRs say an infinite pattern is possible in the original 1943, it might be something similar to this?
Podbod
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Podbod »

Rastan78 wrote:Why does the stage loop like that tho? Since the notes with those old Arcadia WRs say an infinite pattern is possible in the original 1943, it might be something similar to this?
All sea level stages can be looped once but the cost for doing so is 30k bonus lost and there isn't 30k points in planes and ship parts to recoup that. The last level is a special case that allows infinite loops but with no health refill and no shotgun weapon its all but impossible on the original. Autofire might make that a bit easier but the stage is so crazy I still think its highly unlikely.
If you fail the boss a second time it simply advances the stage on the other levels and you get 0 bonus. Again that's a net loss.
(the amaount of boss you need to destroy is dependant on difficulty setting btw. On Difficulty 16 you need 100% of a boss I think, but on level 8 (default) then its something trivial like 50%)

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Rastan78
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Re: ST: 1943

Post by Rastan78 »

Spoiler
Image
Here are notes from Gemant's database autotranslated from Italian. The translation is a mess and I'm not sure if it includes any unknown strategies. They talk about the strategy of producing 2x boss debris by using a bomb as the final hit.

Apparently it's 70% destruction needed on level 8 difficulty. It may be possible that through calculating exactly how much of the boss to destroy and where it's possible to get net an increase by repeating certain stages?

Also any diff between the JP and US roms in the destruction percentage required to advance? Sorry for my lack of knowledge, just throwing out ideas that may or may not be any help to solve the mystery of these high scores.
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