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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:39 pm 


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I've been using that technique like IMO uses on Zone J with the delayed bomb as well. But it looks like I need to wait a little longer. Think I was throwing things off by doing the bomb too early. If you watch he does pick up the bomb in the lower left hand corner. Pay attention to the bomb counter icons partly obscured by the writing overlayed in the video. Only way he can still get max bomb bonus later. The enemy with the bomb seems to get hit low off screen and the bomb just barely peeks out once or twice as it rotates.

On Zone J neon light illusion I've been staying at lower shot power, but all the green missile power ups are a must since you want the back missile. This boss is pretty easy once you know what to do. The trickiest part is right at the beginning bc you need to avoid the yellow right angle lasers, shoot down the round cluster of mines and safely get past the long tentacle to get in the bottom right corner. If you have auto you can choose to immediately shoot off one of the small tentacles which will stun him temporarily to where he won't shoot the yellow lasers. You can make it to safety tucked in behind his bottom tentacle by just dodging the yellow lasers, but it's inconsistent. If you want to take out the round cluster of mines you might just have to sacrifice a hit from the yellow lasers to avoid running into the tentacle. From there it's just shooting off the big bottom tentacle with back missiles and abusing the bottom corner safe spot when he is firing the yellow lasers. His last form is easy to avoid by doing a figure 8 pattern and being careful not to corner yourself.

As far as avoiding using captains to kill enemies: I've noticed that the second stage captain won't fire many green shots if you are holding down 30 hz auto whereas he fires like crazy if you are holding down regular shot.

Also I've seen techniques where the fifth stage captain (the long snake guy) can be made to go completely off the screen and stay there. Probably by using his hadouken style input command, but I haven't played around with this much yet.

I see what you mean now about the quick capture on the 3rd captain. Cool trick. As far as avoiding the red powerup if you don't want it there's got to be a consistent way. But I've found consistently avoiding red powerups in certain areas can be one of the trickiest parts of a stage. Sometimes it has to do with exactly when you shoot down the enemy. Certain areas I will just stop shooting and let the red enemy pass. I hate accidentally powering all the way up and then it's too hard to get the last two captures! :evil:

That being said the guy who has WR (think he goes by mokkun?) on almost every route just maxes out shot early and gets the extra 5000 from all the surplus red items. He is just good enough to get the last captures without white balls at max rank. This also means certain boss patterns will be much longer to kill even with auto on.

His replays are on niconico as well as on Switch leaderboards. Apparently the only route he doesn't play is Great Thing's.

Prickly Angler, since you know the game so well I'm curious where you would rank the difficulty of various routes. I know V route is widely considered to be ideal for beginners and by far the easiest. But I think Neon Light Illusion's first pattern on this route is actually really intimidating without a bomb. From what I've played so far it's hard to sum up the difficulty of a route bc there are difficulty spikes and valleys all over in this game. Personally I prefer a game that has tons of variety and options even if it means the difficulty balance is a bit all over the place. But it's kind of funny. I mean on the all down route I find Zone U which is the second to last stage to be almost easier than stage 2 or 3. By contrast the unpredictable King Fossil is a pretty big difficulty spike for a Stage 2 boss.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:36 am 



Joined: 24 Jan 2020
Posts: 66
Quote:
I've been using that technique like IMO uses on Zone J with the delayed bomb as well. But it looks like I need to wait a little longer. Think I was throwing things off by doing the bomb too early. If you watch he does pick up the bomb in the lower left hand corner. Pay attention to the bomb counter icons partly obscured by the writing overlayed in the video. Only way he can still get max bomb bonus later. The enemy with the bomb seems to get hit low off screen and the bomb just barely peeks out once or twice as it rotates.


I didn't notice at all, thanks for pointing it out to me ! On a that zone bomb timing seems to be everything, imo IMO (no pun intented) must really know exactly when to use it to destroy all the mini-pricklys, and still get the bomb, judging from the look of it he doesn't seem to leave it up to chance. Need to work on that one when I go back on that route, lately I was working on no-missing Storm Causer, which I managed to do, then it's gonna be Vermillion Coronatus's turn (already did both of them many times on saturn, but it’s important for me to achieve this on the arcade version, feels more legit and for very good reasons)

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On Zone J neon light illusion I've been staying at lower shot power, but all the green missile power ups are a must since you want the back missile


Indeed, miss only one and you'll get no back missiles on NLI J, and no homing for Crusty Hammer T :cry:

Quote:
On Zone J neon light illusion I've been staying at lower shot power, but all the green missile power ups are a must since you want the back missile. This boss is pretty easy once you know what to do. The trickiest part is right at the beginning bc you need to avoid the yellow right angle lasers, shoot down the round cluster of mines and safely get past the long tentacle to get in the bottom right corner. If you have auto you can choose to immediately shoot off one of the small tentacles which will stun him temporarily to where he won't shoot the yellow lasers. You can make it to safety tucked in behind his bottom tentacle by just dodging the yellow lasers, but it's inconsistent. If you want to take out the round cluster of mines you might just have to sacrifice a hit from the yellow lasers to avoid running into the tentacle. From there it's just shooting off the big bottom tentacle with back missiles and abusing the bottom corner safe spot when he is firing the yellow lasers. His last form is easy to avoid by doing a figure 8 pattern and being careful not to corner yourself.


I wouldn't exactly call it easy but he's definitely not as hard as people think, and he's definitely easier than the other one which spews a hundred bullets at the same time. He's never to be underestimated though, and whenever I hear the warning I'm like "ok, now let's get focused" and. The most consistent strat is exactly what you say : make him flinch right of the start by destroying one of his arm, and then shoot the cluster of mines quickly while safely getting behind his back (the timing is generous but you need to do it quick otherwise you'll get cornered) and attack him with the rear weaponry. Last phase is all about not loosing your nervs imo, the moment you do it's all over, def one of the most beautifull patterns of the game though (can be skipped with rapid).

Here's my take on that boss :https://www.twitch.tv/videos/870292860

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As far as avoiding using captains to kill enemies: I've noticed that the second stage captain won't fire many green shots if you are holding down 30 hz auto whereas he fires like crazy if you are holding down regular shot.


Doesn’t just happen with the 2nd captain, but with every captain which fires burs shots (2nd, 3rd, and 5th). For instance the 3rd captain both has burst attacks and single shots attacks, but with rapid you can only make them fire single shots That’s because maintaining the rapidfire doesn’t count as maintaining the fire button, but counts as if you would mash (not the case with the Saturn port though)

Quote:
Also I've seen techniques where the fifth stage captain (the long snake guy) can be made to go completely off the screen and stay there. Probably by using his hadouken style input command, but I haven't played around with this much yet.



That technique could be really usefull with rapid, however without it missiles become more important and it’s tricky. On some zones the captain can make you loose an appreciable amount of point like zone N where there is 3 waves worth 40k. Denitely something I need to work on.

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But I've found consistently avoiding red powerups in certain areas can be one of the trickiest parts of a stage. 


It is, best not to take any risks ;)

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Sometimes it has to do with exactly when you shoot down the enemy. Certain areas I will just stop shooting and let the red enemy pass.


Me too, but only on zone P and U when I’m lazy (when I’m in a good mood I don’t). Might be usefull on V’ too because the two red powers ups really get in the way with the captain and I still haven't found a way to not get them. But I’m gonna try what IMO does next time, his technique on that zone seems reliable.

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I hate accidentally powering all the way up and then it's too hard to get the last two captures! That being said the guy who has WR (think he goes by mokkun?) on almost every route just maxes out shot early and gets the extra 5000 from all the surplus red items. He is just good enough to get the last captures without white balls at max rank. This also means certain boss patterns will be much longer to kill even with auto on.


Honestly it’s fine I think. 30 hz really trivializes the captures imo, with white balls or without, full rank or not. The key is using the missiles correctly but I think you know that by now. The only captain which I find hard to capture with rapid and high rank is the fourth, but that is probably cause I don’t know what to do. Without rapid and at low rank that one is piss easy The combination of both 30hz and point-blanking makes me feel it’s easy but it’s because I parcticed over and over again without it. Also it’s easier to adapt to rapid when playing non-rapid than the other way around so when you find a good spot to capture the captains without rapid it’s always gonna be even more effective with rapid. But when I play with rapid there is another problem : I tend to overestimate my firepower, and sometimes I even forget that rapidfire doesn’t replace good placement. There was a time when I was much less consistent with the captures, but now unless I jack rank up or mess something up I’m confident.

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This also means certain boss patterns will be much longer to kill even with auto on.


Yes but still negligible I think. Might be wrong on this one (I’m still studying thoose WR runs) but it seems to me that point-blanking + rapifire will still obliterate bosses quite easily without really needing to control rank. I find even Crusty Hammer to be a joke with rapid, but then again it’s because I’m used too playing without. I was also able to take down Hysteric Empress without bombing so yeah I think it's ok overall.

Quote:
Prickly Angler, since you know the game so well I'm curious where you would rank the difficulty of various routes. I know V route is widely considered to be ideal for beginners and by far the easiest. But I think Neon Light Illusion's first pattern on this route is actually really intimidating without a bomb. From what I've played so far it's hard to sum up the difficulty of a route bc there are difficulty spikes and valleys all over in this game. Personally I prefer a game that has tons of variety and options even if it means the difficulty balance is a bit all over the place. But it's kind of funny. I mean on the all down route I find Zone U which is the second to last stage to be almost easier than stage 2 or 3. By contrast the unpredictable King Fossil is a pretty big difficulty spike for a Stage 2 boss.


Well thank you very much for saying so but though I discovered quite a lot by myself, I also learned of lot from reading MathU and watching his videos, he’s the real master of this game. First of all I don’t consider a route ending in V to be the easiest, or ideal for a simple survival clear. That is because a route ending in V must pass though either G (very hard level with a managable boss) or H (managable level with a very hard boss), and that is a lot to handle for beginner. For me the easiest route for a simple 1CC is ABEINSY by far (my first 1CC ever), I’ve been trying to think this this over and over but I always came up with the same result. This route is very balanced in terms of shields, bombs, it has tons of green power-ups (you get homing at the end of stage 5), no hard bosses and except Double Dealer they can all be bomb abused (=bombing while sitting on the boss's face). I think E is better than D when you begin because D gives you first shield after the midboss and forces you to continue to G or H. I might seem difficult but once you know it it’s not scary at all, done it many times without a shield before I even 1CCed the game. Then N, S and Y are very managable compared to others.

I agree with you that it’s hard to rank the route because while some might be easier overall, they can all be difficult or in their own ways, and in the end it always comes down to the player : for exemple some will find G harder than H while some find it easier, but truth is they are both hard in their own way as I mentionned earlier. But overall I’m positive that ABDGKPZ’ is the hardest route of the game by far, just because of how much hp the final boss has and if that wouldn’t be enough you get Fatty Glutton K and Crusty Hammer P before that. After that I would put something like ACEHMRW, and then routes that go throught Titanic Lance and Hysteric Empress/Vermillion Coronatus. Storm Causer has imo the craziest patterns of the entire game but he can be bomb spammed very quickly before he poses a theat. And while Curious Chandelier is the second easiest final boss to no-miss no-bomb, I still wouldn’t call that route easy because zone Z is tricky, and before that you must pass through either Crusty Hammer T or Neon Light Illusion J/Fatty Glutton O.

I we’re just talking of the final boss here’s how I would rank them from easiest to hardest :

- Risk Storage. That one is obvious, very easy patterns for a final boss, and though you cannot bomb-abuse him you can take him out quite safely without using them, even after you've destroy his tail. The only thing important here is not to trigger the « homing metal liquid » at the same time he spews the tube ressembling Neon Light Illusion. Very bad ending for a very good reason.

- Curious Chandelier. That one is already a bit harder with some attacks being way trickier to avoid. But overall he’s very managable compared to other bosses.

- Odious Trident. Even though this one can be bomb-abused very easily (unlike the other two) he’s much harder in the sense that you need to know what’s coming, otherwise you’ll get cornered/crushed very easily. He has a very dangerous attack where he launches one of his module that fires from the front or the back depending on where you are, in order to dodge it you must stay below it but the spot is very thight and since it it can obliterate your shield I usually just bomb it. Very random boss with low hp and lots of different attacks, of all the final bosses he’s the one I know the least about.

- Hysteric Empress. Though this boss has the second most amount of HP of hall the ennemies of the game I would still put her as the middle final boss. Very hard to no-miss no-bomb but the other ones are even worse. Thought most of her patterns aren’t too crazy this is really a test of both endurance, and of precision in manoeuvering your ship.

- Storm Causer. That one is very hard to rank. I can consider his attacks to be the worse of the game but he has shitty hp and can be killed with just three bombs and two shield units. The thing is that not every one knows how to use their bombs and their weaponry correctly, and that is mandatory for the speedkill since it requires to be very precise and to know what you’re doing. If you let the boss do his thing you’ll be in a world of nightmares, but his lack of hp really hurts him overall. In some ways he’s the hardest boss of the game, but if you know exactly what you’re doing and just care about surving he’s even easier than Risk Storage.

- Vermillion Coronatus. Though he’s no longer the hardest boss of the game like in Darius I, he is still a major threat. Very defensive boss with some nasty attacks, the fact that one can hardly even get to damage him most of the time makes this fight even harder. The only time you can really get to hurt him is during his crazy danmaku bullet stream in which you can exploit a safespot (VERY risky) or bomb-abuse him.

- Great Thing. This boss has ludacris hp, you can fire at him during minutes and not even stratch him. Very difficult attacks too. The only boss I never destroyed without losing lives (2 at best), thought I did time him out once.

Bear in mind that this is without rapidfire, the ranking would probably be different with 30hz, though mostly similar.

And yes I agree with you that I like games that have variety thought I don’t mind playing a specific way either. In Darius Gaiden you can make the game either very easy or very hard depending on what you want and that’s awesome. It’s true that if you take a boss like Double Dealer N he is way easier than King Fossil or Neon Light Illusion J which you fight before him but it’s not something that bothers me in shmup.

If you have any questions feel free to ask ;) I still have things to discover in this game but overall I have good knowledge of all zones and bosses.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:00 am 


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Something unusual just happened when I was playing. I finally witnessed the invicibility bug for the first time. Not exactly sure how I triggered it as it was unintentional. I got the notification in the bottom corner that online ranking conditions had been changed and I was like hmmm thats odd??? Then I had one or two lucky dodges that made me really suspicious that something was off. Finally I was thinking alright this is really strange that I still have 5/5 gold shield and have not taken one hit, so I just started ramming things and sure enough . . . No damage.

Interesting to see that the bug is left intact in Cozmic Collection and that M2 has been smart enough to detect the bug and keep your score out of the arcade rankings if you do trigger it. However my score and replay were uploaded to the "all-mix" leaderboards which is where anything is allowed. Non default settings, 2P simultaneous etc. are ok. I was glad about this because my final score was about 200k better than my previous best, so it would have been a bummer to replace my legit arcade ranking score with a bugged one on the leaderboard. But I really wanted to see this credit through out of curiosity to verify how this version would handle the glitch.

BTW Prickly Angler, thanks for your in depth thoughts and responses.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:37 pm 



Joined: 24 Jan 2020
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That glitch is triggered by touching the little bubbles, they’re a tribute to all the bosses that were already there in the first Darius (King Fossil, Electric Fan, Fatty Glutton, Great Thing, Coronatus) and only appear when you fight theese bosses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-k61OP-Ag

You'll find the description of the bug in the commentary.

It's a good thing it detects the bug in-need, but it's also a shame that all-mix contains everything that is not normal. In my opinion they should have put different rankings for 2P, easy, hard,etc etc. Also I hate the fact that for whatever reason playing Tiat is forbidden in Darius 1 & 2, in 2020 that just feels wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:02 pm 


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Yeah I accidentally touched the ball at King Fossil. It hit me from the front side though.

I'm pretty happy with the leaderboards since they at least split out scores for the different routes and there are replays. Im curious how the scores compare on PS4. I'm assuming they don't cross over between consoles? On Switch for example the top score for Z route is 12.77 M which is extremely good for this route. Top score for V and Y are over 13 M.

Why would 2P side be banned in 1 and 2? Maybe the game is thinking you're playing 2P simultaneous? That's why in G Darius you get bosses with more health when you start on 2P side even in single player.

I had never seen the insane boss milking possible on Darius 2 until watching replays from the Cozmic leaderboards. It looks really challenging. I think these routes were all banned from Arcadia scoring bc of that, but if you watch it, it's like hey if someone can pull that off for 20 minutes without losing all their lives, they deserve the highest score.

I think in Darius series boss milking is an intended possibility by the designers. Otherwise they wouldn't have put in the cubes to come out and make your life harder for milking at least 3 minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:17 pm 



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I think they should split every single route and not just every ending single zone (maybe was it too hard to handle ?). Take zone W for instance, you can get there by taking ACEHLQW where's there is only one extra bomb, or on the other hand you can go there by taking ABDHMRW, and in that case you'll get four extra bombs. Since finishing the game full of bombs is so valuable and that extra bombs can be used for points too I don't think scores where there is even one different route should be compared imo. For exemple bombing Titanic Lance's debris (Raizing style) will get you something like 270 k and the boss is worth 2,5 millions if milked properly so yes no point in comparing ABEINSY and ABEIMSY.

I can't really say anything about PS4 rankings since I really never look at them. Overall I don't really care since I don't have much interest in rapidfire replays (I didn't even save my 11 M done with it to tell you the truth), and the rankings are full of those. Be aware that playing the game with the 30hz makes even easier than if you would add an extra life. Plus there is only five slots, which is less than the number of final zones and I don't see myself waisting one. For rapidfire replays the ones available at the STG hall of fame are more than enough for me, despite being on the crappiest video website I know of. Don't know if rankings cross between consoles but I assume they don't.

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Why would 2P side be banned in 1 and 2? Maybe the game is thinking you're playing 2P simultaneous? That's why in G Darius you get bosses with more health when you start on 2P side even in single player.


In Darius I & II arcade you can start the game at P2 side, and the game itself doesn't distinguish rankings just because you decided to play as a woman, hence one could say the Cozmic is not arcade perfect. The only way you can get to play Tiat is by having two controllers (and thus two console profiles), suiciding Proco, and continue the game like that, but in any case you'll be dispatched with everything else that is consider all-mix, a category which makes absolutely no sense at all. Maybe they did this because in some episodes you start at a higher level of power when playing Tiat, in any case they should have openned a different ranking. I get that Japan is a very conservative country, and that they probably don't care much about gender/sex equality, but not being able to play Tiat is just wrong, no excuse for that.

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I had never seen the insane boss milking possible on Darius 2 until watching replays from the Cozmic leaderboards. It looks really challenging. I think these routes were all banned from Arcadia scoring bc of that, but if you watch it, it's like hey if someone can pull that off for 20 minutes without losing all their lives, they deserve the highest score


Japanese rankings are absurd and don't seem to be making any sense at all : in some they distinguish rapidfire and non rapidfire, in others they put different rankings depending on the ships, on others not, some game modes are not even recognized , etc etc. Their rankings aren't really serious imo, no solid concepts behind, plus remember you have to be part of a certain game center mafia in order to be able to have your score regognized. In Darius II the routes passing through Yamato aren't considered because of the biplanes milk, I never watched what it was all about but I think your argument can make sense. Anyway following their train of though they could have kept the Darius Gaiden ranking open for any routes not passing in C,E,K,O,W,Z', but they didn't. Just talking about the rankings BTW, not japanese players themselves.

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I think in Darius series boss milking is an intended possibility by the designers. Otherwise they wouldn't have put in the cubes to come out and make your life harder for milking at least 3 minutes.


Exactly, they could have added a time out or whatever but they didn't. That's why Darius scoring is so interesting (though boring to watch nonetheless) : because it's infinite, no counterstop either, the only limit you can reach is your own human condition. But imo unlike in litterature, painting, cinema, etc, the public of video games sometimes seems to care more about how they want the works to be than how they were designed by their creators.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:25 pm 


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I'm sure you already know Darius Gaiden does have a boss time out at 4 minutes. I think it's impressive that good players are able to milk to the limit then destroy a boss at the last possible second even without visible boss health bar and timer. The new port offers a big advantage over PCB/MAME in this area. But then so few players are at the level where they go for full boss milking anyway.

I'm not sure what the strategy would be on PCB. Count how many cubes are released? Or maybe listen for music cues based on how long the boss music has been playing? Boss milking is a funny thing. It can be exciting and tense for the player, but extremely boring to watch.

I know what you mean about Arcadia and Gamest ranking having some funny decisions. Of course on less popular games if you open a ranking for every possible ship and category it may dilute the rankings too much. But I was always surprised that they didn't include different ships for games like Raiden Fighters Jet, when they did for both RF1 and 2!? Plenty of games that were banned due to glitches or infinite patterns still have active scoring players though. DG and Battle Garegga are perfect examples. Or a game such as Dimahoo has an active scoring scene including secret ships that weren't originally ranked. I think only counting scores by ending route in DG makes sense, because there are just so many possible routes. Not going to do the math, but wouldn't that create a huge amount of different scores to compare?

As far as autofire in DG I think the arguments have all been heard. Without having inside information of the developer intentions we don't know how they felt about autofire. Since the rank is heavily influenced by auto use, (except in the Saturn port auto code), it's hard to imagine they didnt consider it at all. I don't think the game is played with auto in Japan only because of the official national rankings (which of course no longer exist since all the way back in 1995 when the invincibility glitch was discovered), but because they feel the game is better balanced and more playable with auto. Of course while survival, especially in certain sections, becomes much easier, the skill ceiling when going for score in this game is still extremely high. The large amount of points available from boss parts and milking counter the fact that bosses could also be quick killed with auto and white balls. Max score involves intentionally pushing rank all the way up, and the game at 255 rank is not easy. It's literally impossible to max rank, get all boss parts, and captures without auto so the argument that the scoring balance is better with auto is not exactly crazy. For those who prefer to not destroy all boss parts, focus on controlling instead of maxing out rank and have their potential score partially determined by mashing ability, the option to play without auto is there. What surprises me is that no one has opened an auto OFF scoreboard for this game here given how much discussion there has been over this topic and how much differently DG plays with and without auto.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:55 am 


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Prickly Angler wrote:
I get that Japan is a very conservative country, and that they probably don't care much about gender/sex equality, but not being able to play Tiat is just wrong, no excuse for that.

That's quite a leap of judgement to make from not having a "start as 2P" option.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:10 pm 


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Maybe they did this because in some episodes you start at a higher level of power when playing Tiat


A woman with more powerups than a man!? Clearly Japan is not ready for this. No wonder she was unjustly relegated to the 2P side.

Image

Tiat looks pissed. In all fairness she does look like she's ready to dismantle the patriarchy at any moment.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:26 am 


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Plus there is only five slots, which is less than the number of final zones and I don't see myself waisting one.


Provided you clear the game and make the top 100 for an end boss, which isn't hard at all, your best replays for different routes will be uploaded to the rankings. You can always go there and watch or DL them again.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:21 am 



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I'm sure you already know Darius Gaiden does have a boss time out at 4 minutes. I think it's impressive that good players are able to milk to the limit then destroy a boss at the last possible second even without visible boss health bar and timer. The new port offers a big advantage over PCB/MAME in this area. But then so few players are at the level where they go for full boss milking anyway.


Exactly, that's why I disregard using gadgets in normal play, it's just too much help. For instance Crusty Hammer P is hard because you don't want to trigger his beresrk mode, and that depends on how much health he has (you don't want to go too hard on him at the beginning). It's even worse in some games like Garegga where rank matters so much : instead of having to learn it, now you can just look at it. And 0 risk of timing out a boss like in Kamui's 2013 Stunfest run. Pink bullets are also quite comical, they remove one of the main reasons why the game is so hard. It's like baby sitting, and it makes games way easier (plus gadgets are ugly as ****).

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I'm not sure what the strategy would be on PCB. Count how many cubes are released? Or maybe listen for music cues based on how long the boss music has been playing? Boss milking is a funny thing. It can be exciting and tense for the player, but extremely boring to watch.


Something like that yes, or maybe count seconds ? And I agree, it makes some great games like Batrider a pain to watch, though I'm positive it must be really exiting to do it yourself (but overall I just love to milk, though I can understand that some people disagree). As long as it doesn't go into ESP.Rade like stupid tick point leech or whatever milking is fine by me !

Quote:
I know what you mean about Arcadia and Gamest ranking having some funny decisions. Of course on less popular games if you open a ranking for every possible ship and category it may dilute the rankings too much. But I was always surprised that they didn't include different ships for games like Raiden Fighters Jet, when they did for both RF1 and 2!? Plenty of games that were banned due to glitches or infinite patterns still have active scoring players though. DG and Battle Garegga are perfect examples. Or a game such as Dimahoo has an active scoring scene including secret ships that weren't originally ranked. I think only counting scores by ending route in DG makes sense, because there are just so many possible routes. Not going to do the math, but wouldn't that create a huge amount of different scores to compare?


Exactly, diluting the rankings is an issue and I fully understand the reasons why there is no individual rankings for each + 50 routes you have in each Darius (minus G-Darius and consoles episodes). But yeah no logic in arcadia's rankings whatsoever, and I doubt there will ever be. The openning of Dimahoo's ranking to others players is certainly a good thing competition-wise, and it made the scene incredibly lively since but I prefer to look at it the other way : if japanese superplayers were in the need of an "official" (more like yakuza) ranking in order to find scoring this game with secret characters interesting enough for them to even consider, then I don't have much respect for them as individuals, not that I had much to begin with. The game has been around for over 20 years so yeah it says a lot, if anything it would have been more logical to the exclude the secret ships in Garegga, where they are outright broken scoring-wise, than in Dimahoo where they are not.

Quote:
Without having inside information of the developer intentions we don't know how they felt about autofire


We know they were never with the intention of baning it, that it is shown on attract mode, and that they didn't included it by default either. They did include rank for every press, so they did mean to punish it a bit, but to what extend we don't know since devs have admitted several time regretting not having enough time for game balancing : http://shmuplations.com/dariusgaiden/

Quote:
I don't think the game is played with auto in Japan only because of the official national rankings (which of course no longer exist since all the way back in 1995 when the invincibility glitch was discovered), but because they feel the game is better balanced and more playable with auto. Of course while survival, especially in certain sections, becomes much easier, the skill ceiling when going for score in this game is still extremely high. The large amount of points available from boss parts and milking counter the fact that bosses could also be quick killed with auto and white balls. Max score involves intentionally pushing rank all the way up, and the game at 255 rank is not easy. It's literally impossible to max rank, get all boss parts, and captures without auto so the argument that the scoring balance is better with auto is not exactly crazy.


Agreed it's not crazy, but scoring is still way harder without rapid, no matter how you look at it, I've played both ways enough to be absolutely certain. The fact that you need rapid in order to capture some captains is not really an argument imo, it's still a matter of ranking up (they are more intersting ways to get it up without mashing, which won't get you far in this game), only without rapid you actually have to face some patterns instead of outright skipping them (I have a very hard time thinking the devs programmed Neon Light Illusion's last phases to be skipped) and you have less firepower to handle the stages. As far as balancing goes everyone has the right for their opinions, but for me me rapidfire is more customer service than anything else, and we all know that the customer is always right (especially in Japan), that is also why a lot of games don't run with the default settings over there.

Quote:
What surprises me is that no one has opened an auto OFF scoreboard for this game here given how much discussion there has been over this topic and how much differently DG plays with and without auto.


I have no clue to be honest, might have to do with the fact that the argument from authority of " if japanese people do it" has been brought up many times, including by respected members of this forum : viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48357&start=30. I don't post my scores here anyway since most topics are not uptdated and that the system is very outdated, so I don't really care to be honest.

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That's quite a leap of judgement to make from not having a "start as 2P" option.


No, this is something people who lived there and been there told me, and something I learned from movies, cartoons, video games, etc. Japan is not the most feminist place (perhaps it changed very recently and I'm unaware of it ?) in the world and that is an understatement, but since this forum is not about sexism or gender equality I'll just leave it at that.

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A woman with more powerups than a man!? Clearly Japan is not ready for this. No wonder she was unjustly relegated to the 2P side.


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

That could also be interpreted as sexist and not empowerement hahaha. Like in Resident Evil/Biohazard Jill cannot do anything without Barry while Chris has to watch for himself and Rebecca. In any case it's odd to see Tiat doing the akimbo stance :shock:

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Provided you clear the game and make the top 100 for an end boss, which isn't hard at all, your best replays for different routes will be uploaded to the rankings. You can always go there and watch or DL them again.


If anything my Great Thing no miss is worth more to me than my 11M V clear done with 30hz. It has been uploaded in the rankings automatically thought, but again I don't really care.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:11 pm 



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I'd just like to interject for a moment...
Prickly Angler wrote:
As long as it doesn't go into ESP.Rade like stupid tick point leech or whatever milking is fine by me !

This is a bit of an ironic statement when Ra.De.'s milking is actually engaging, certainly more so than say, Garegga's or the crappier Batrider bosses. You have to deal with some highly random patterns (and Cave boss drifting) while moving in a specific way to damage the boss minimally. Because the boss timers are super long you can afford to wait and play safe even when milking, which can make some parts more boring than they should be, but a truly optimized score isn't going to settle for that.

I really don't get what causes Ra.De. in particular to attract criticism about milking when the "stay in the safespots until the boss shoots zako, repeat for 12 cycles" style seen in many other games is much worse.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:47 pm 



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My point was that something in a game can be very fun for the player but not for the audience. For exemple I enjoy leeching the yazukas in Darius I,, since it's basicaly infinite (if you have enough skill) it is thrilling to try to hold on as long as you can (the human always has a limit). But it sure is a pain to watch, especially WR runs which last 1H40. I did not intented to do the leeching originally at Shoot the Baguette, but Yami told me it would be interesting to showcase so I went on and score with my first life. Judging from the comments it was a painfull experience for some viewers, I should have made it clear that my run was not gonna be a full Octopus milk. So in the end I guess it's both a matter of opinion and point of view, but overall I like games with milk.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:06 pm 


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Just had an 11.3 M run on Z route vs. Curious Chandelier. Had 2 big drops that made this run oh so close. Aaaaargh!!!

On the last boss I accidentally focused my shot too much on his eye during the swinging chandelier attack and triggered his final phase. This aborts the phase before you can whack all the big balls swinging in your face. This was a big drop of close to 600k. Lesson learned.

Then on the final phase he did an unusual pattern where he does the aforementioned dingleberry mine cluster attack but from the upper middle of the screen instead of the usual left side, requiring a different pattern. So I burned one of my 5 bombs there and lost 300k. There have to be like 8 or so different patterns he does at random during this last phase, and if you want to be really consistent at getting the 5 bomb bonus you need to be ready for ALL of them, even though a few are pretty rare. Pain in the butt.

So those two drops probably would've put me over 12 M which has been my long term goal for this route.

What went well was I got the juicy full bonus from both big tentacles on Neon Light Illusion J. Got all of Deadly Crescent parts including the tricky tail fin without a hit to my shield during the fight. Only took one of Fatty Glutton's fins, so that's another 90k I could pick up there with practice.

Also did better than I usually do calming my nerves on the last stage when I'm coming in hot with all captures, full lives, bombs, etc. I tried to focus on the task at hand. Usually what happens is I start thinking about the trickier sections of the final boss or the excitement of reaching a big score too soon. That both increases nerves and takes away concentration in the moment. I tried verbalizing in my head basic steps like shoot this guy, go down, go up and so on. This crowded out any premature thoughts of "OMG this is it!" or "What if I fuck it all up later on that one pattern!?" which are always my downfall.

Got the section we talked about where you burn a bomb on Zone J and then get one back. On the second wave of big fish I bomb as soon as the top fish reaches the picture of the arm shield in the HUD (1P side). So far this has been consistent in producing another bomb.

I find there are a lot of areas where I use the HUD for positioning reference. Especially areas where you need to be really precise. Like Prickly Angler pointed out in his Saturn differences breakdown, these strategies would have to be adjusted on Saturn since the HUD was repositioned. It makes sense bc as a consumer version they don't want the HUD to be lost in the overscan, which most people back in the day had no practical way to adjust.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:05 am 


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Hey all, migrating my old Darius Gaiden videos off of Youtube got me back into the game recently and I've been doing some hardcore game experimentation and note taking again. I might just get that damn website I've been wanting to build for the game for years now put together if I have the time this summer. In the mean time I've noticed some activity in here and wanted to spread around more info.

Rastan78 wrote:
There have to be like 8 or so different patterns he does at random during this last phase...

In fact no bosses in Darius Gaiden have random attacks. Of the subset of bosses that don't simply shift into a new attack series from the beginning when you do enough damage, the rest have a cycling wheel of attacks which jump to the next wheel at an equivalent point when you do enough damage to switch them to their next phase. You can exploit this by timing their transition to the next phase at a point where they skip over a nasty attack you don't want to deal with. I do this all the time on Zone T Crusty Hammer to avoid its nasty blue bullet spread for example, and it's really important for safely milking some of the final bosses for points.

Curious Chandelier has a mix of these behaviors. The 2nd attack phase always starts from the beginning, but the attacks in the third phase are linked to the attack in which you transitioned from the 2nd phase:

Thus, if you're trying to avoid that attack where it spawns laser mines at the top center of the screen, you want to wait during the 2nd phase where it launches arms at you until it does the body twirl in the center after returning from the left side to do enough damage to push it into its final phase. This will give you as much breathing room as possible to finish the boss off before it does that attack.

Edit: "spores" -> "mines" clarity
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Last edited by MathU on Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:07 pm 


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Ah thanks. Very useful info there. Good luck with that website.

I tested and wrote down the order of attacks on that third phase before reading this and got the same result. Could've saved myself the trouble lol.

For all practical purposes I think I won't bother to remember the cycle since each attack is so clearly telegraphed in between phases by the position he moves to. But knowing how to trigger the same patterns every time and avoiding the trickiest ones, that would be very useful considering the 3rd phase can mess up a perfect run only seconds before it's over.

I used training mode and lowered the rank so I could survive the patterns easier and jot down the order. So I noticed just how much easier they are at low rank. He drops way less cluster mines, the purple aimed laser is way slower and gives you a ton of time to switch directions between its two cycles. Also at high rank his cross hair aimed grenades are really coming for you and like to randomly hit your shield for no reason.

One difference between how I noticed you did the boss on the replay is you didn't go for the tentacles or the chandelier balls. I take out all the tentacles so I don't hit the eye on the first phase at all until they're gone, then use the safe spot right up by his face during the attack when he does the unaimed purple spread in all directions to trigger phase 2.

Then I take out all the balls during phase 2 which I think also triggers phase 3. Not 100 percent sure if I might also just be damaging the eye enough to where phase 3 triggers just as the last balls are destroyed. Either way going after the them will make it a bit tougher to control exactly when I finish phase 2 since I'm not just worrying about shooting the eye.

BTW there's a replay on Switch where a player does a full milk on phase 3 for the cluster laser mines. The point total is not impressive there though given the difficulty. Even the WR player doesn't go for this.

I think my next goal for Gaiden if/when I hit 12 M on Zone Z is to do Zone Y going through Titanic Lance on the way. I think this route is a bit harder, but has a really good scoring potential.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:47 am 



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Congrats ! The best I got with rapid is 11 M, I'm a still a bit scared to not be able to capture the captains so I went soft with it. I'd like to try out the Titanic Lance milk sometime too, seems really fun ! Fact is it's turrets are worth so much that any route taken with M is interesting scoring wise.

Quote:
On the last boss I accidentally focused my shot too much on his eye during the swinging chandelier attack and triggered his final phase. This aborts the phase before you can whack all the big balls swinging in your face. This was a big drop of close to 600k. Lesson learned.


That must have been so frustrating, perhaps you can try switching to a lower fire frequency for the milk ? Might help. Judging from my replay those tentacles (edit : those swinging balls I mean) are wirth exactly 600k indeed : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEBo0nlI8s

Lots of room for improvements, not even talking about that wasted bomb at the end. MathU can do way better I’m sure. The middle section of J is still a bit puzzling to me scoring wise and there’s much room for small improvements. I’m playing other shmups right now, but I’ll come back to the game someday thought.

Quote:
Curious Chandelier has a mix of these behaviors. The 2nd attack phase always starts from the beginning, but the attacks in the third phase are linked to the attack in which you transitioned from the 2nd phase


Looks like I had it all wrong about Curious Chandelier, thought I did notice that he never did the triple yellow bullet stream from the left just after switching to 3rd phase, now I can understand why. Laser spores is the same attack as in first phase ?

Quote:
Then I take out all the balls during phase 2 which I think also triggers phase 3. Not 100 percent sure if I might also just be damaging the eye enough to where phase 3 triggers just as the last balls are destroyed. Either way going after the them will make it a bit tougher to control exactly when I finish phase 2 since I'm not just worrying about shooting the eye.


I’d say it triggers it too but not a 100% sure either, there’s so many things that are still unclear too me in this game despite having played hundreds of hours lol. A tech I guess would be to stop firing when the boss has a few tentacles left.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:56 am 


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Phase 3 of Curious Chandelier is triggered either when the boss itself has too low remaining health or when there are less than two remaining arms. You should try to save two arms until a new attack sequence starts and then try to blow them both up at once, otherwise you can sometimes get a frustrating scenario where that last arm pops off and robs you of 30,000 points. Talk about a trollish mechanic.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:17 am 


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Thanks again. I was about to go into training mode and test this.

MathU wrote:
Talk about trollish mechanic.


This game is so full of trollish mechanics. I'm still trying to perfect getting Neon Light Illusion J big front tentacle consistently without destroying the delicate claw first and dropping roughly 200k.

Then theres the fact that you have to get the captains for score but they also steal points so you have to try not to kill anything with them. And of course the fact that picking up a powerup when you didn't mean to can actually give you a weaker overall shot without the white spheres and mess up a boss fight or run. I know those are just the obvious ones, but it points to a theme of including mechanics that are unexpected or counterintuitive, aka trollish. At the end of of day it all adds depth in the long run though.

Another minor point about Zone Z is that there are 5 red powerups in the stage. Pretty rare overall and the only boss stage with this. Whereas on certain end bosses like Storm Causer there might be a big advantage to staying under max to keep white spheres, I don't think it matters much on Curious Chandelier. Better to just pick them all up since you'll get an extra 20k or so depending on when you hit max. Of course if going for absolute rank control then don't do this.

Edit: oh yeah speaking of trolls does anyone know the exact thing that triggers Deadly Crescent to do that really heinous borderline impossible pattern with the purple homing lasers? I guess it's destroying his front fins before triggering his second phase?


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:28 am 


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You mean when Deadly Crescent spams the purple tracking shots endlessly? That happens if you've blown off its pelvic fin and you do enough damage to trigger the transition to phase 2 in the middle of that attack. Always wait until that attack (or its intact-pelvic-fin variant with the purple spiraling beams) has finished to attack its mouth if you're not in phase 2 yet when playing for score.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:53 am 


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Yeah that one. Good to know. I always save that fin for the 2nd phase now so I never run into it, but I still had some PTSD from triggering it in the past and a slight paranoia that I would accidentally trigger it again since I didn't fully understand. Definitely not a pattern you want to deal with. Could be wrong, but I just assumed it was practically impossible to dodge without bombing and put in as a troll?


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:46 am 


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The trick to dodging the purple tracking shots consistently is to understand that they are not true homing shots--they track you briefly, set a course to a given position, and then fly in that direction. Thus if you simply use short controlled movements to get out of the way you can dodge them indefinitely without too much effort. If it were the only attack that Deadly Crescent used it wouldn't be that that big a deal when you trigger this behavior. The problem is that they get combined with other attacks. And I don't actually think this was an example of developer trolling. It's probably a bug because the developers accounted for switching to phase 2 in the middle of the spiraling purple beam attack by instantly halting it, it just seems like they forgot to program an end to its counterpart when the pelvic fin is destroyed.

Anyone happen to know if it's possible to output display from the MAME cheat engine when dumping to video? I have a few things to demonstrate that on-screen numbers will be most helpful in conveying. I suspect I'm going to have to do a screen capture, but it'd be nice if I didn't.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:19 pm 


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I thought these quotes (thanks to shmuplations) from one of the programmers, Akira Kurabayashi, were interesting:

Quote:
—How many different gradations of difficulty (rank) are there?

Kurabayashi: Well, if you divide them up very finely, there’s 16 million levels of gradation. (laughs) But if you look at the actual effect of the rank on enemies, it’s far less, somewhere between 16 and 256 levels of difficulty. The way you raise the rank is by firing your shot continuously, destroying boss parts, destroying entire enemy formations, and taking power-up items. All of these will raise it a little. It also goes up naturally the longer you play.


And later:

Quote:
Kurabayashi: Scoring will cause the rank to rise, but you also need to raise the rank if you want to score more. Do your best!


I'm curious about how he says "firing your shot continuously," and I'd assume he means holding down auto fire. I've often seen Google translate come up with continuous fire or synchronized fire for auto, but I don't have access to the original article or know Japanese so I'm speculating a bit. But of course a programmer would know that it's autofire that raises the rank significantly and not normal shot. Then he goes on to encourage players to raise the rank as high as possible (you're rewarded with increased enemy spawns in many places). I've never seen a Western player intentionally raise rank outside of destroying boss parts etc., but this is how top players like Mokkun and IMO play. They never let go of 30 hz auto even when there's nothing to kill.

Anyway, this might cut against the idea that the game was never intended by the devs to be played with auto. Of course whether it's more satisfying or better balanced with or without auto is another thing.

What I'm more interested in is what percentage of your score can come from playing at max rank and getting all the spawns and what the minimum rank is at each stage to trigger them. Also what rank point is overkill and gives diminishing returns? The training mode in Cozmic Collection presents the opportunity to figure this stuff out, but it's a bit tedious. Think I'm gonna start delving into this though.

Also another minor point of distinction about how rank works. The idea is that every button press raises rank. Would it be safe to say that it's every button press that results in a shot fired? If so, then hanging out by the right side of the screen holding 30 hz is going to be slightly more efficient at pushing the rank than being at the left edge where you get a lot of gaps in your shot pattern due hitting the on screen shot limit.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:16 pm 


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Sounds like a translation problem or a programmer forgetting how their own game works to be honest. Holding the shot button has no impact on adaptive difficulty, it only increases once on the frame after the button is pressed down. Rapidfire cheats functionally press and release the shot input constantly, so that's why they pump up the difficulty.

I intentionally increase the difficulty a bit while trying to get a no-King-Fossil-fins high score on routes involving Zone J because precision bombing there for the maximum amount of points depends critically on the spinner enemies that drop the bomb icon coming in waves of 5 or 6. If you're playing at minimal difficulty, you will not have managed to bump up the spawn rate from 4-enemy waves to 5-enemy waves at that point in the game and an optimal bomb release won't deliver the purple bomb icon. That's a very specific use case though, it's generally not a good idea to pump the difficulty up because some of the stage minibosses can be so challenging to capture without rapidfire cheats and they're a critical component of score at the end of the game. Even at my highest level of score play I intentionally avoid mashing the shot button except when really needed and intentionally take hits to my shield to avoid grabbing maxed-power shield icons (the 2nd largest source of increase after blowing up body parts).

Rastan78 wrote:
Anyway, this might cut against the idea that the game was never intended by the devs to be played with auto. Of course whether it's more satisfying or better balanced with or without auto is another thing.

On the other hand, rapidfire cheats wipe out bosses without effort before you can see most of their attacks, they break the functionality of captured miniboss attacks, and they mess up the tracking shot system at the red wave shot level. At a high-level analysis of the game the case is obviously against them being intended; if a developer were to claim otherwise they would simply be engaging in historical revisionism to save face.

Rastan78 wrote:
What I'm more interested in is what percentage of your score can come from playing at max rank and getting all the spawns and what the minimum rank is at each stage to trigger them. Also what rank point is overkill and gives diminishing returns? The training mode in Cozmic Collection presents the opportunity to figure this stuff out, but it's a bit tedious. Think I'm gonna start delving into this though.

The additions to enemy wave counts happen at 200000, 400000, and 600000 on a 24-bit hexidecimal scale from 000000 to FF0000 (the game starts at 080000 on default settings). You can work your way up to 600000 (that's 37.6% of the maximum) where all affected enemy waves have their maximum spawn of seven enemies fairly early on in a playthrough and then anything past that just makes the game harder without any gains.

Rastan78 wrote:
Also another minor point of distinction about how rank works. The idea is that every button press raises rank. Would it be safe to say that it's every button press that results in a shot fired? If so, then hanging out by the right side of the screen holding 30 hz is going to be slightly more efficient at pushing the rank than being at the left edge where you get a lot of gaps in your shot pattern due hitting the on screen shot limit.

The associated adaptive difficulty modifier increase occurs every time the shot button is depressed within a stage (and outside some weird stage regions where the difficulty modifier freezes for a bit). It doesn't matter if something physically comes out of your ship or not (the on-screen bullet limit preventing it).
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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:54 pm 


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Good to know about the increased enemy spawn rank values. Seems like there is some incentive to get to that max 7 enemy spawn rate early, at least on an auto fire max scoring run. I'll leave any other speculation about the dev's intentions aside.

Good info in your vid about the Zone J bombing section. I've been consistent with getting the bomb to spawn, but I didn't realize that destroying some fish too early is what can result in not all of them spawning. Such a funny little section of the game.

I realized something about going for the first big tentacle bonus on the Zone J boss. This is where you're tucked in behind the tentacle and trying to hit the first rotating circle of the front tentacle using your upper rear missile without destroying the claw early and missing out on 200k points. Each time the tentacle curls back and gives you a clear shot you need to move into the right position and then go to neutral right before tapping shot. If you are still holding left it's likely that your forward missiles will arc back and not clear the claw and it will take damage even if it is off the bottom of the screen. Also try to avoid getting a hit to your shield by the claw/blade as I'm pretty sure this will deal a chunk of damage to it as well.

The second rear one you just have to be patient and have good positioning, just a few pixels to the right from the bottom left corner. The cycle where the boss stops moving at the upper part of the screen and isn't firing yellow tracking lasers is the time to get in some shots. If you can see a couple pixels of your shield peeking out from behind the the bomb icon in the HUD you're good. Also even though you can't actually see the base of the tentacle since it's behind the boss, you can tell when your missiles hit it, because the small explosion from the missile will register a bit lower and to the left than a missile that hits the main body of the squid.


Last edited by Rastan78 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:23 pm 


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Indeed, overlapping your ship with targets is in fact the highest damaging attack in the game. I've turned careful ramming with shields into a tactic for increasing the odds of capturing the stage 7 miniboss when its health is maxed out.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:51 pm 


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Are the midboss movement patterns random? I know where they enter the screen can be manipulated by your height. For example that Stage 7 captain on Zone Z, if you start out nice and low he will do the same, giving you good positioning for the capture, but sometimes he moves up then back down making the capture easy to finish using back missiles. If he moves up and continues going up, then you might have to run away and dodge his bullets or do the shield ram method at the last moment like you mentioned, or else get pinned in a bad spot. Other captains like the stage 6 one can be similar.

So is the movement pattern you get just luck?


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:16 pm 


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Depends on the midboss. Although it does tend to trail your movement, there seems to be somewhat of a random element to the movements of the 6 midboss. When it decides to use its mouth beam special attack is definitely random. The stage 7 midboss on the other hand moves entirely based on your position. But, as with the previous miniboss, when it decides to use its laser special attack is completely random. Getting it to use its laser attack in the center of the screen so that you can attack the control orb with back rockets without harming the body is critical to capturing it at max health. Here is one tactic for keeping it in the center when you get an unlucky long delay on the laser attack. It works pretty consistently in a few of the final stages but can't be relied upon in ones that spam you with enemies or obstacles. Capturing the final stage miniboss when its control orb health is maximized is one of the most difficult challenges at high level score play and you really have to be prepared to improvise quickly depending on what kind of random laser attack behavior you get.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:38 am 



Joined: 24 Jan 2020
Posts: 66
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if Kubarayashi was misremembering a bit, like when he says that there's between 16 and 256 levels of rank while the cozmic gadgets show the rank actually starts at a lower value, and ends at 255. There is also some incoherence between interviews sometimes, for exemple here http://shmuplations.com/dariusii/ Fujiwara says he came out with the idea of the Yamato, while on the Cozmic Collection book Senba (Gun Frontier and Metal Black's developper) says he did, which makes more sense imo since in the first stage of Metal Black there is an hermit crab coming out of an aircraft carrier. Those people are tied with contracts, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of this misinfo was due to that. Main thing is he was just saying that scoring means more rank and vice-versa.

Quote:
The additions to enemy wave counts happen at 200000, 400000, and 600000 on a 24-bit hexidecimal scale from 000000 to FF0000 (the game starts at 080000 on default settings). You can work your way up to 600000 (that's 37.6% of the maximum) where all affected enemy waves have their maximum spawn of seven enemies fairly early on in a playthrough and then anything past that just makes the game harder without any gains.


So if I understand correctly any rank increase past 37,6% of maximum rank will not cause more ennemies to appear ? If my math is correct that would mean there is no point in raising rank past level 96/255.

Quote:
and outside some weird stage regions where the difficulty modifier freezes for a bit


Where for exemple ?

Quote:
The associated adaptive difficulty modifier increase occurs every time the shot button is depressed within a stage (and outside some weird stage regions where the difficulty modifier freezes for a bit). It doesn't matter if something physically comes out of your ship or not (the on-screen bullet limit preventing it).


So if I get it right there is no real point in hugging to the right side of the screen while maintaining rapidfire (like imo and others do) ?

Quote:
Indeed, overlapping your ship with targets is in fact the highest damaging attack in the game. I've turned careful ramming with shields into a tactic for increasing the odds of capturing the stage 7 miniboss when its health is maxed out.


I more than vouch for that. Actually ramming dammage is so ludacris in Gaiden that you can actually kill Great Thing faster with credit feeding and ramming it (without ever shooting) than conventionnally.

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Depends on the midboss. Although it does tend to trail your movement, there seems to be somewhat of a random element to the movements of the 6 midboss. When it decides to use its mouth beam special attack is definitely random. The stage 7 midboss on the other hand moves entirely based on your position. But, as with the previous miniboss, when it decides to use its laser special attack is completely random


Intersting, I always thought that when the last midboss launched his laser attack after a long delay it was because I had jacked up rank too high, never knew it was random, a big thanks for clearing that up, and for all the great info you're providing us MathU. Doing a big Gaiden pause right now but all this info will be superusefull when I'll go back to it. Can't wait to see your website.

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Capturing the final stage miniboss when its control orb health is maximized is one of the most difficult challenges at high level score play and you really have to be prepared to improvise quickly depending on what kind of random laser attack behavior you get.


So you actually do that in your scoring runs ? I'm asking because on your ACEHLQV score attack run commentary you said that it's best to sacrifice the last midboss for body parts. Anyway that was impressive and I didn't know the last captain could be captured without rapidfire :D


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 Post subject: Re: GD: Darius Gaiden
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:56 am 


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Location: Paranoia
Prickly Angler wrote:
If my math is correct that would mean there is no point in raising rank past level 96/255.

Yep, that's correct. All you're doing is making things more difficult.

Prickly Angler wrote:
Quote:
and outside some weird stage regions where the difficulty modifier freezes for a bit

Where for example?

There's a brief section in Zone H just after the starfish enemy and as the first fish larva is showing up where the difficulty modifier stops advancing, and another just after the last fish larva. Another section at the end of the meteoroid swarm in Zone L before Double Dealer shows up. Most of these segments are pretty short and it's hard to say what they might all have in common.

Prickly Angler wrote:
So if I get it right there is no real point in hugging to the right side of the screen while maintaining rapidfire (like imo and others do) ?

Correct, the only reason to do that is to get around the on-screen projectile limit for damage purposes against enemies. But it's not necessary to pump the difficulty modifier.

Prickly Angler wrote:
Quote:
Capturing the final stage miniboss when its control orb health is maximized is one of the most difficult challenges at high level score play and you really have to be prepared to improvise quickly depending on what kind of random laser attack behavior you get.


So you actually do that in your scoring runs ? I'm asking because on your ACEHLQV score attack run commentary you said that it's best to sacrifice the last midboss for body parts. Anyway that was impressive and I didn't know the last captain could be captured without rapidfire :D

I've been doing some considerable testing and experimenting again lately and I was wrong to speak in too many absolutes where I've done so in the past. It is in fact possible to capture the miniboss at maximum control orb health on zones V, W, Y, Z, and V' (give up on Z', that is truly impossible). But in some, due to other enemy presence and obstacles, it entirely predicates on getting lucky with the miniboss firing its laser attack in the middle of the screen. This strategy I've devised works on Z and V' when the laser comes late, but I'm still not sure I can come up with anything that works on the other three zones.
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