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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:47 pm 


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Alright, then. I knew how the multiplier was built, but thanks for the reply. :) I'd assume the general distribution of your cash-ins should be similar to the first loop, then?
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:57 pm 


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Dunno, I think you should use lock more often than you do in first loop, because 1) you don't have to use shot to start a chain and 2) less multiplier = less multiplier lost for locking things. I'm by no means expert at scoring in the loop though, so you should probably ask someone else....


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:35 pm 


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Quote:
2nd Row - Multiplier Counter (1-999)

Multiplier used in stage. Grows as you gather Multiplier Chips, but depletes as you use your lock shot, and if you die.


This is half true. I've noticed that the multiplier counter sometimes increases when you're chaining with lock shot, particularly when it is a low number (say, 150). I still can't make heads or tails of it's importance, though. Does it take your overall chip counter after the boss fight and multiply that number by your normal counter? I am so frustrated and confused trying to figure this out. (I am dreadful with mathematics.)
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:52 pm 


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The stage counter drops by a certain percentage when you destroy an enemy with the lock shot. For example, with small enemies it's something like 3-5% of your chips will be lost, so if you have 100 chips you'll lose 5 chips, but you'll get another 10 with a 5-chain so you'll come out with 105.

The stage counter is only used during the stage, once you reach a boss the overall counter comes in to effect. The overall counter will be multiplied by each segment of a boss you destroy with the lock shot and you will generally lose 10% of the multiplier with each segment you destroy. Whatever is left over will be multiplied in to the stage end bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:28 pm 


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Thanks for your detailed explanation, MrMonkeyMan. I think I'm going to just ignore the stage counter for now, as it doesn't seem very useful (though I have seen you get it up to 999 intentionally, and I'm not sure what that's all about.)

Also, I'm sure most of the superplay guys already know about this, but I've noticed that on the stage 2 boss it's possible to get up to 5 chips from each of the tank's four armor plates in the front and back, using the shot+lock on trick mentioned earlier in this thread. The only catch is, unlike the planes in stage 1, it's hard. I mean hard to pull off consistently. I can do it, but it's mostly out of luck, because there is no visual or audio cue to let the player know exactly when it is right about to be destroyed (when it blinks red, that doesn't help very much, because it starts blinking well before it is about to be destroyed -- and the technique requires that you shot/lock at the very last moment.). And unfortunately, I always die after succeeding in doing so, because the more parts you destroy for 5 chips, the angrier it gets. (I'm attempting to play for score without using bombs, because I just 1CC'ed the game with them.)
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:31 pm 


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Siren2011 wrote:
3.) The overall multiplier counter keeps all of your chips combined. It can only increase.

This is only true during stages. During boss battles, this becomes your 'middle' counter. It is expended whenever you destroy something with lock-shot in a boss battle, and of course also decreases gradually over the course of the battle.

EDIT: Sorry, this was already mentioned by MrMonkeyMan.

Siren2011 wrote:
5.) Aside from the points you earn from destroying a boss, a bonus round tallies up your remaining ship and bomb stock and converts them into points. Moreover, all of your chips of every value earned in the stage are also of importance; the number of specific chips (1-5) multiplied by how many you collected, are then added together. This also contributes to the bonus score.

The chips of each value have no direct bearing on the bonus, individually. Only the 'overall' counter matters here. I believe the calculation is as follows (for the first round, anyway):
bonus = 500 * [current_player_stock + (bombs_currently_held / 10)] * overall_counter_after_boss_destruction

I believe the omote/truujou round is the same, and ura is just doubled.

This is also in the first post of this thread.

Siren2011 wrote:
I think I'm going to just ignore the stage counter for now, as it doesn't seem very useful (though I have seen you get it up to 999 intentionally, and I'm not sure what that's all about.)

It's generally accepted as ideal to raise your multiplier to max just before a midboss, because they provide large payouts. There are other places where this is advantageous as well.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:53 pm 


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Sorry, this was already mentioned by MrMonkeyMan.

No, that's totally my fault for not specifying what I meant. Yes, during the stages is the only time when this rule applies.

Quote:
It's generally accepted as ideal to raise your multiplier to max just before a midboss, because they provide large payouts. There are other places where this is advantageous as well.

Thanks, I will definitely keep that in mind.

As for what I said about a month ago about not finding the counter useful, well, now that's changed because I finally know its function in relation to the scoring system. :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:18 am 


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Taken from here: http://www.shmups.com/reviews/ketsui/index.html

Reviewer is talking about the chain timer that starts at 50 and descends rapidly.

Quote:
"The higher the counter each kill, the higher the box you get. The idea is to keep this pumping because it acts as a multiplier to your multiplier (as far as I can tell anyway)."


Does this sound like it makes sense to anyone? Personally, I tried killing as many baddies as possible before the timer hit zero, and it didn't seem to make a notable difference in score.
For a while I thought that killing enemies when your timer was in the green raised the stage counter more than killing enemies when it is in the red. Now I question the validity of this hypothesis.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:31 am 


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Each enemy gives a set amount of chips if you destroy them with lock shot. The value of these chips is fixed at the value of your chain (1 to 5) and the points received from enemies are their base point value multiplied by your current stage (not overall) counter. The timer is just that, a timer - to my knowledge it shouldn't affect the score you get from enemies. I think by 'counter' he might just have been referring to the number next to the timer. :)
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:09 am 


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Thanks Sapz! I only wish that my USB joystick still worked so I can put all of this newfound knowledge to proper use. :(
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:23 am 


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Can someone please tell me how SPS is getting a godly amount of chips before the stage 2 mid boss? My intuition tells me that there's more to his strategy than just using empty shot to get his overall and stage counters so damn high. I've tried just about every trick I could conceive of, even mimicking what he does, and I'm still well below his score.

Please, please, please be detailed. List any nuances you can think of, even if you consider them to be trivial. I'm not expecting to be as good as him overnight (I'd be crazy if I was!), but the lack of progress I've made considering the amount of time I've spent trying to improve is troublesome. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsz7d3tQ ... re=related

EDIT: Also, does empty shot not count as a multiplier kill? I've noticed that whenever I use it, the (x insert number here) doesn't appear, and my score doesn't seem to budge much.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:05 am 


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What is your total multiplier before the boss fight starts? If you can get to 4000 then you can consider yourself a pretty good player. Keep in mind that you are watching a strategy demonstration DVD; he probably did several hundreds of runs before come up with what you are watching right now, and he is better at airlocking than you will ever be. I'd say been able to consistantly get a total multiplier of 4000 on stage 2 is very impressive already.

By the way, which ship are you using? If you are using Panzer Jager, forget about SPS and watch the Insanity DVD instead. It's much easier to copy SYO's strategy, because you don't have to work around the difference between ships, and because unlike SPS, SYO is still mostly a human.

And yes, airlocking counts as a shot-kill, so multiplier won't be used.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:46 am 


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My total multiplier is always around 3300 before the boss. It's funny, because I can get a slightly higher score if I take different paths of destruction, BUT I cannot for the life of me seem to surpass it by an admirable chunk of chips.

Something I've noticed: Sometimes, killing off as many enemies as possible from when the chain timer starts and ends gets me more points than if I divided that chain into two (let it drop, start lock on again, etc.), even though in both cases I would be killing basically the same amount of enemies. I don't know about the Insanity dude, but Mr. Monkey Man and SPS appear to swear by this strategy.

And am I crazy or does lock shooting enemies while diagonally backing towards the bottom of the screen give you a higher multiplier than going from right to left or left to right in a straight line? You can probably tell that I am exhausting the possible ways the properties of the ship can be used to score high. Maybe I don't have it pegged down to a T, but I KNOW there has to be SOMETHING there...like, some kind of trick.

How can something so simple in theory (hold C+A) have sooo much depth that separates a player like myself and SPS? It boggles my mind. I know the general answer is "well, he practices more." Yes, but how? What are his methods? Does he hold both at the same time? Does he hold C for a certain amount of time before pressing A? Is distance to the enemy before initiation a factor? Your middle laser thing seems to have some kind of influence, but I can't find a consistent strategy that works.

Quote:
because unlike SPS, SYO is still mostly a human.

That thing (SPS) is definitely not human. I like to picture it as a pillow sized, omnipotent '5' cube that controls the game with the energy rays of its warm green glow.

And I am using Tiger Schwert.

Quote:
he probably did several hundreds of runs before come up with what you are watching right now, and he is better at airlocking than you will ever be.

True and true. I just want to be good enough to get to DOOM and destroy it. :( Which at this stage I'm at right now will certainly be a forced grind to say the least.

However, I can get to stage 4 without losing a life or using a bomb. It's a start, but I demand a lot more out of myself.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:53 am 


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Subterranean Sun wrote:
...unlike SPS, SYO is still mostly a human.


If SYO's the same person who did the DB 1LC, then no, he's not a human at all.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:42 am 


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^Yep, same guy. There's a brief interview with SYO where he mentions Dragon Blaze offhand here, along with the other INH Ketsui DVD player Futabishi. The direct links don't seem to work for me atm, but the "next page" arrow at the bottom still does. Pages 5 and 6 are the interviews.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:11 am 


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UPDATE: I have no idea what I'm doing, but I can get my overall counter to 3700 by the time I reach stage 2 boss!!! Three times in a row! I am satisfied with the progress. :D
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:07 am 



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Siren2011 wrote:
Something I've noticed: Sometimes, killing off as many enemies as possible from when the chain timer starts and ends gets me more points than if I divided that chain into two (let it drop, start lock on again, etc.), even though in both cases I would be killing basically the same amount of enemies.

Isn't this just because you aren't wasting points on restarting the chain?
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:00 pm 


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RNGmaster wrote:
Subterranean Sun wrote:
...unlike SPS, SYO is still mostly a human.


If SYO's the same person who did the DB 1LC, then no, he's not a human at all.

...Well, good point. Still, SYO's strategy is considerably easier to copy as it doesn't involve nearly as much airlock.

Siren2011 wrote:
What are his methods? Does he hold both at the same time? Does he hold C for a certain amount of time before pressing A? Is distance to the enemy before initiation a factor? Your middle laser thing seems to have some kind of influence, but I can't find a consistent strategy that works.

Aim to time your keypress so you fire you laser right after the target is destroyed; if you switch too soon, you will kill the target with lock. If you switch too late, you will get less or no extra cubes. The tricky part is that shot-lock switch does not happen immediately; it takes about 25 frames to switch from shot to lock.

In order to airlock larger enemies, you should weaken it with shot and switch to lock just before it got destroyed. Popcorns are more complicated; you have to put some distance between your ship and the target, then hold down A+C simultaneity- try this on the first helicopter squad in the game, i.e. the one at the beginning of stage 1. You get 5 chips for killing them with plain shot; I can get 6, some peoples can get 8 or even 9.

3700 total multiplier on stage 2 isn't too bad. I can't do much better myself, I think 3900 is the best I've ever got.
Siren2011 wrote:
True and true. I just want to be good enough to get to DOOM and destroy it.

Good luck bro. It has been a while since I see another shmups forum member with balls of a respectable size.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:58 am 


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Gonna have to run over the suggestions in this thread. I've 1CC'd the game, but my scoring is admittedly pretty pitiful. Though I have the same goal in mind as Siren: I want to be able to face DOOM legit and smash it down :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:11 am 


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To empty lock popcorns, here a trick I summarized might be useful.(Actually this can be witnessed in almost every new Ketsui score attack videos)

First, you've got used to the touch that minimizing the firepower produced by C button; in this way you start the counter with less casualties.
Then, hesitate. But not too long, the timing is not that difficult when you manage to set up the style.
Finally, A down, and immediately C follows. Greed you! lotsa of 5 chips are coming to your ship :lol:

The whole action is no longer than 2 secs. So make sure you start it all over again when you are done, or switch to locking enemies off right away...

And most important, practice. Be on the way to perfect! :D
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:47 am 


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Sapz wrote:
Alright, then. I knew how the multiplier was built, but thanks for the reply. :) I'd assume the general distribution of your cash-ins should be similar to the first loop, then?


The scoring mechanics remains the same, so multiplier strategies can be copied from the first loop too.

Except what nuclear core said:

To score in the omote loop, lock is essential, and stay away from objects when they explode will give you more suicide bullets, that is, more multiplier counts. This IS dangerous, but to score, it's the only way here.(That's the reason Panzer Jager is more effective in the loop) Adjust your patterns for the loop if required.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:46 am 


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So, I think I can do that weird technique in which you can pop out extra 5 chips with timing from shot to focus. Usually happens on mid-sized ships. However, I'm not really sure how lock shot affects the multiplier. If you're in a chain (indicated by the fast counter at the bottom row dropping while in lock shot?) does the multiplier actually decrease for all of those chips you got from destroyed ships in lock mode? It seems like my multiplier would be way lower if that were the case, as I often try to pop a popcorn ship with regular shot and get a "chain" with the lock.

Another question, do I not want to eliminate bosses with the lock shot, as it would hypothetically kill the multiplier? But then again, durring the boss the multiplier disappears and all you have is the main stage counter.

Also, is there a simple way to make it so the chain lasts longer? Is it kept alive by continually destroying ships or is it "built up" from destroying plenty of enemies at the same distance with shot?

Scoring in this game seems simple in theory, but it's kinda confusing to me.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:54 am 


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finisherr wrote:
So, I think I can do that weird technique in which you can pop out extra 5 chips with timing from shot to focus. Usually happens on mid-sized ships. However, I'm not really sure how lock shot affects the multiplier. If you're in a chain (indicated by the fast counter at the bottom row dropping while in lock shot?) does the multiplier actually decrease for all of those chips you got from destroyed ships in lock mode? It seems like my multiplier would be way lower if that were the case, as I often try to pop a popcorn ship with regular shot and get a "chain" with the lock.

Another question, do I not want to eliminate bosses with the lock shot, as it would hypothetically kill the multiplier? But then again, durring the boss the multiplier disappears and all you have is the main stage counter.

Also, is there a simple way to make it so the chain lasts longer? Is it kept alive by continually destroying ships or is it "built up" from destroying plenty of enemies at the same distance with shot?

Scoring in this game seems simple in theory, but it's kinda confusing to me.


- When you get a 5 chip your multiplier goes up by 5 - this is an immutable rule. The multiplier decrease comes from killing enemies in lock and "cashing in" on the multiplier. If the enemy was destroyed with shot then your multiplier won't decrease.

- Boss parts should be killed off with shot - it doesn't decrease the main counter and you still get the multiplied value for that part.

- This might be wrong, but I recall that every time you pick up a chip the chain counter increases by a few frames. So if you get a 5 chip, go into lock, and kill a bunch of popcorns (creating a bunch of chips) it keeps the chain up. The sections after the Stage 2 and Stage 5 midbosses are really good for this.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:15 pm 


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A couple questions:

1. Boss 2, second form, first attack (the red lines). How does this pattern work exactly? My first instinct was "oh, it's aimed, stream that shit" but it doesn't seem like it always is aimed- is there something simple I'm missing?

2. Stage 3, getting the 1-Up- any good tips on how to do this? When I try it, either I miss some turret on the big ship when I break lock with him to deal with one of his helpers, or, worse, I die and then don't have time to actually get the kill. Having to spend a bomb and have it cost me a 1-Up REALLY blows. Also, exactly what parts do I need to kill? I know I need to get every turret, but you can also get a lock on the ship itself; do I need to kill those sections, too?


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:08 pm 


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RNGmaster wrote:

- Boss parts should be killed off with shot - it doesn't decrease the main counter and you still get the multiplied value for that part.



No, boss parts are just like other enemies, shot to save the multiplier, lock to score. However most parts have a relatively low base score, so save the counter for the most valuable last form, and the stage result bonus is a better plan to get a higher score.

Obscura wrote:
A couple questions:

1. Boss 2, second form, first attack (the red lines). How does this pattern work exactly? My first instinct was "oh, it's aimed, stream that shit" but it doesn't seem like it always is aimed- is there something simple I'm missing?

2. Stage 3, getting the 1-Up- any good tips on how to do this? When I try it, either I miss some turret on the big ship when I break lock with him to deal with one of his helpers, or, worse, I die and then don't have time to actually get the kill. Having to spend a bomb and have it cost me a 1-Up REALLY blows. Also, exactly what parts do I need to kill? I know I need to get every turret, but you can also get a lock on the ship itself; do I need to kill those sections, too?


1. It basically aims at you but not always. Just get used to it, read the next wave then move.
2. All the parts of the ship should be destroyed(Make sure they are destroyed by you, not self-explosion due to the battle bridge down. So you will have to spare that tower for a while). Advice is, get close to those parts, you can full-lock them faster, thus kill them faster.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:40 pm 


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So I just did a run of X-Mode, made it to Doom, couldn't quite take it down though :twisted:

One thing I noticed when I started Stage 5 was that enemies began dropping Ura suicide bullets when I had no chips stocked, but then reverted when I died. I assume this happens if you no miss to Stage 5 (which is what happened)?


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:41 pm 


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I think it's no miss and get to 240 million points. Possible by stage 4, or is it the end of stage 3?

I think you get 10,000 points for every suicide bullet and cancelled bullet as well as double the stage bonus. If you can make it to Doom without dying you get to fight the real Doom too.

I haven't played this in a while, so I'm not completely sure that's correct.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:53 pm 


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A couple additions to the strat:
* Blasting through the game as fast as possible keeps the difficulty down (most of the difficulty comes from rank, which is increased over time)
* Playing as 2P is easier (you can keep rank at about 1/7th of the usual value in normal play when you play as 2P)
* Rank is fixed to 248 in loop 2. (Loop 1's max rank is 240)
* When you get a chip while your chain is cleared, the chain timer gets set to 55. It decreases usually at 2 values per frame, but either every other frame or every 3rd frame it decreases by only 1 (what determines whether it's every other or every 3rd frame is currently unknown).
* The possible timer increases are 2, 6, 26 and 30. What causes each of these is mostly unknown.
* When you get a chip with a higher value than the current chain value, the timer is reset to 55.
EDIT:
* Panzer Jaeger is faster than Tiger Schwert by 1 tick when in lock-shot (I believe 1 tick is 0.25px/frame, but I'm not sure)
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:50 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
A couple additions to the strat:
* Blasting through the game as fast as possible keeps the difficulty down (most of the difficulty comes from rank, which is increased over time)
* Playing as 2P is easier (you can keep rank at about 1/7th of the usual value in normal play when you play as 2P)
* Rank is fixed to 248 in loop 2. (Loop 1's max rank is 240)
* When you get a chip while your chain is cleared, the chain timer gets set to 55. It decreases usually at 2 values per frame, but either every other frame or every 3rd frame it decreases by only 1 (what determines whether it's every other or every 3rd frame is currently unknown).
* The possible timer increases are 2, 6, 26 and 30. What causes each of these is mostly unknown.
* When you get a chip with a higher value than the current chain value, the timer is reset to 55.
EDIT:
* Panzer Jaeger is faster than Tiger Schwert by 1 tick when in lock-shot (I believe 1 tick is 0.25px/frame, but I'm not sure)


Wow, where do you get these? Especially the rank thing and timer behavior, I've never seen anything like this before. Although I believe this game has rank parameter, everyone else just says "no, Ketsui has no rank" -_-
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:15 am 


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I'm making Ketsui Arrange, so I've been reverse engineering the code. So I'm seeing exactly how everything works :-)
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@trap0xf | daifukkat.su/blog | scores | FIRE LANCER
<S.Yagawa> I like the challenge of "doing the impossible" with older hardware, and pushing it as far as it can go.


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