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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:23 am 



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sven666 wrote:
no rank in ketsui?

im pretty sure there is, you can adjust how steep of rank you want with the dips (even displays setting on main startscreen) and there is a huge difference in just the first boss agressivness if you get there with a good score...


The 'rank' you can adjust via the settings is just 'difficulty'. It's like the DDP setting of the same name. It changes a few things difficulity wise (speed and number of bullets). It's existence and name do not infer the game dynamically changes rank on any setting.

I'm not sure what you mean about the first boss. I've played this game nearly exclusively for a long time and I've never once seen the first boss change aggressiveness based on how well I was doing. It's always the same.

I just did an experiment; I played the first stage twice and got two scores before the boss: 1.9M and 13M. There was no change in boss aggressiveness.

Now there are two different patterns the boss can use after you transition it to the second form. This might be what you're mistaking for rank, but trust us, it is random.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:24 pm 


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Okay, I'm back on this. Wathching the Type-A replay, I don't see how the fuck he gets the multiplier up so high by the midboss on stage 1. Just after the opening, where there's a turret and destructible roof ceiling on either side... it looks like he's using the shot to get all those chips. When I do it, I get only a single 5-chip. ON the two ships before hand, I kill the first part of each w/ the shot (gets multiple chips) then the 2nd part w/ the lock-on (multiple chips). I thought the 2nd part of the ship didn't give a bonus for the shot, but it looks like his multiplier goes from 255 to 325 just on this one ship.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:40 pm 



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GaijinPunch wrote:
Okay, I'm back on this. Wathching the Type-A replay, I don't see how the fuck he gets the multiplier up so high by the midboss on stage 1. Just after the opening, where there's a turret and destructible roof ceiling on either side... it looks like he's using the shot to get all those chips. When I do it, I get only a single 5-chip. ON the two ships before hand, I kill the first part of each w/ the shot (gets multiple chips) then the 2nd part w/ the lock-on (multiple chips). I thought the 2nd part of the ship didn't give a bonus for the shot, but it looks like his multiplier goes from 255 to 325 just on this one ship.


In all cases they're using the A+C trick to get more chips AND prevent multiplier loss when killing the planes/turrets/buildings. Same trick that's demonstrated in the out-takes on the first item carrier.

The basic idea is you weaken the enemy with shot (easiest to use C button). Just before it dies, press A (keep C held down). Your pods will start to move into position, but you will keep shooting. The trick is to time it so you kill the enemy before lock on happens, with your shot and as close to 'fully deployed pods' as you can get. This will trigger multiple chips from the enemy.

You'll want to do this on both 'forms' of the two big planes, and the building turret+pods. I don't do it properly on the building myself (I only do it on one of the side parts) and my multiplier will still hit 750 on a good day.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:03 pm 


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Yeah, I just watched the outtakes. Somehow I think it's going to take me a while to get used to it, but I don't think there's any other way to improve my score (unless I go further in the game). Are there other parts in the game this used?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:31 pm 



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GaijinPunch wrote:
Yeah, I just watched the outtakes. Somehow I think it's going to take me a while to get used to it, but I don't think there's any other way to improve my score (unless I go further in the game). Are there other parts in the game this used?


It's CAN be used in a few parts, but I don't think it's necessary to score 'well'. It IS necessary to score 'very high'. It can be used on many boss 'breaks' to get more chips, and just about any larger enemy. The DVD players mostly use it on bosses and a few choice places outside of stage 1 (the twin rotor ships after the stage 2 midboss, for example).


Don't worry about it too much. Give it a try in stage 1 to get used to the feel, but it's not a big deal if you don't nail it. Looking at your score in the HS thread, you have lots of room to up your score without progressing further in the game. You will realize much larger gains by changing your path through the levels and your enemy destruction order. I'm at 111M in stage 5 (and I didn't last that long in stage 5), and the only place I consistently use this trick is in stage 1 before the midboss.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:39 pm 


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I've beaten my score a bit... mainly at the 70m mark... but that's generally w/ a lot of deaths. My stage 4 score is complete ass. Getting better, but I've yet to really get a good pattern going. Not dying so much, of course, will help. :)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:25 am 



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Random bit:

I am going to say your normal shot does more damage when closer. There are no gaps in it, unlike when you shoot from full screen. I think I've always known this but never really cared.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:41 am 



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Valgar wrote:
Random bit:

I am going to say your normal shot does more damage when closer. There are no gaps in it, unlike when you shoot from full screen. I think I've always known this but never really cared.


I will second this. You can see the difference on the 2nd form of the stage 3 boss; which I do with all shot. The more you can get up close to it, the faster it will take enough damage to switch to the next form.

But I also agree. I never care. You don't use shot enough for it to really be useful.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:09 pm 



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Question for the...4 of you who might actually know.

Stage 5 mid-boss: is there a way to predict or influence which side it starts the first attack from?

I'm trying the method where you lock on to one of the bits at the top; but I find if the bullets start coming from the same side as I'm locked onto I die. If they come from the other side I cancel them all before they hit me. And I suspect it isn't random..
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:32 am 


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I think it's high time this got a good hearty bump for us new 360 players out there :mrgreen: . Good for reading into just how shit works in this game.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 10:02 pm 


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I'm having trouble understanding exactly how to make some of the extra 5 chips just magically appear out of enemies. the whole shoot it with lock then quickly change to shot but still have lock kill it is a bit confusing.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:00 pm 


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You want to destroy an enemy with normal shot, then switch to lock just as the enemy blows up to get the extra chips you would normally only get for taking an enemy out with lock shot.

You do this to conserve your multiplier and pick up those extra chips you don't get for simply shooting enemies with the normal shot. The large planes at the start of stage 1 are the easiest example I can think of to show this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcBJUBc-3qY

At around the 25 second mark they show up. You can see that I'm switching from shot to lock shot as they're exploding.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:31 pm 



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The most important thing is to just keep trying to do it. We can only explain it so much; you just eventually learn what it 'feels' like to do it correctly and then you start getting more consistent with it. You'll know you're making progress when you press the lock shot button and immediately think 'nope, missed it'
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:51 am 


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MrMonkeyMan wrote:
You want to destroy an enemy with normal shot, then switch to lock just as the enemy blows up to get the extra chips you would normally only get for taking an enemy out with lock shot.

You do this to conserve your multiplier and pick up those extra chips you don't get for simply shooting enemies with the normal shot. The large planes at the start of stage 1 are the easiest example I can think of to show this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcBJUBc-3qY

At around the 25 second mark they show up. You can see that I'm switching from shot to lock shot as they're exploding.


it's making a lot more sense to me now, thanks to that vid a long with the explanation of exactly what you were doing and why. Trial and error is going to play a big part in the timing this stuff right. the ketsui death label dvd is going to come in very handy now (for A-type at least lol)

Glad to see you pop up again MMM, haven't seen a post from you since i gave up trying to beat your Hard-A high score in ketsui death label. I don't think I'll be able to put up any competition for you in this game any time soon, or at all :(
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:11 pm 


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after a few days with the practise mode of the port i'm able again to loop this game. (did it on the pcb so no xbox live replay)
but there is still one part were i nearly always have to bomb.
it's stage 4 midboss final pattern.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mrmonkeyman ... CGZTtPRyZw
1:28-1:36

any advice for that part?
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:08 pm 


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That's one of the more random moments in the game. Sometimes he barely shoots any of those condensed spreads and you can easily dodge your way through it. You can even see I'm having trouble there in that video.

The best advice I can give is try to stay near the middle of the screen, both vertically and horizontally. The condensed shots won't spread out as much so you won't have to move as far to get out of the way, this also allows you to back up and buy a little more time to move out of the way if needed. Feel free to release the lock shot for the extra speed if you need it too.

You can see I get pushed all the way to the bottom of the screen in that video which makes things very hairy.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:04 am 


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Was anybody planning on putting together a summary of how scoring works in the 360 port's "Arrange" mode for this thread? Aside from the obvious bullet-canceling enemies I'm not sure what I'm doing in there...
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 9:58 am 


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Copied from my post at cave-stg:

There are two states the game can be in with regard to chips: zero timer and positive timer. The timer increases when chips are generated; more so when the C-shot was used than with the A-shot.

With zero timer, all normal enemies release pink suicide bullets when destroyed. The suicide bullets may be cancelled with the laser; in fact, while holding down A-shot, the laser aura protects your ship so you are completely immune to them. The only way to generate chips in this mode is to destroy a special bullet-cancelling enemy (including mid-bosses and bosses) with the lock shot.

With positive timer, all enemies generate chips instead of suicide bullets. The value of the chips is determined by the way the special enemies are destroyed. If you kill a special enemy with n lockons (possible values: 1-4), the chip value is set to n. If, in addition to getting 4 lockons, you are pointblanking the special enemy when it is destroyed, the chip value is set to 5. In any case, the chip value cannot decrease while the timer is positive, so if the chip value is already greater than n when it would be set to n, it retains its previous value.
For the purposes of this calculation, the chip value during zero timer can be assumed to be 1.


The stage multiplier and overall counter are increased by i) collecting chips and ii) generating suicide bullets. The rate at which the displayed numbers increase is capped, so they may appear to continue increasing while the actual multiplier is static or decreasing; this does not affect scoring. The stage multiplier is 'cashed in' and decreases when enemies are destroyed with lockshot. On end of stage bosses, the overall counter assumes this function. The end of stage bonus is related to lives, bombs and the overall counter (exact formula?).

A large proportion of the points seems to come from the bosses and end of stage bonus. This is because the boss multiplier is potentially ten times as large as the stage multiplier. For instance, in my best run so far (~380mil) I think these bonuses accounted for around half the points. From watching replays, it is not clear that blue suicide bullets actually benefit scoring particularly (though obviously the no-miss that automatically triggers them does).

Blue suicide bullets, which are not cancellable by A-shot, are triggered by no missing until 240mil points. Dying after that point reverts it to pink suicide bullets. Reaching the last boss with blue suicide bullets causes it to be substantially harder (more like 2nd loop arcade difficulty). It is currently unknown how DOOM is triggered, but it doesn't depend on lives lost. Using 6 bombs or fewer has always worked for me, though even that condition has been proved to be too strong.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 5:03 pm 


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Thanks, that gives me a good amount to go on. If I read this right, it looks like the main idea is to get in close and bring down a "special" enemy with a "full" lock shot, and then blast as many other enemies as you can before the effect wears off - it also appears that you'll want to mix up using the normal and lock shots during that period, as you need to build up the multiplier with the former and "spend" it on the latter. Did I miss anything important in there? Oh, and presumably if you kill a second "special" enemy while the "timer" from a previous one is still going, the chip value of the second kill will override the first, right?
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 5:59 pm 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
Oh, and presumably if you kill a second "special" enemy while the "timer" from a previous one is still going, the chip value of the second kill will override the first, right?


Only if the new chip value is higher, it won't go down.
The timer is generous enough that most levels can be 'chained;' for example, it is possible to spend the entirety of stage 3 with a positive timer, right from the first special tank. The chaining doesn't work the same way as DDP though, it takes a bit of time to get the hang of it. The number you want to keep an eye on (other than the timer) is the number that flashes next to your ship when you collect chips, this is the actual value. If it's flashing 999 you usually want to be switching to lockshot for a bit, provided this wouldn't break your chain.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:37 am 


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Thanks, gave it a go a little earlier this evening - nice to know what I'm doing (though I still suck horribly). Would the OP consider promoting Rav's stuff to the first post?
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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:34 pm 


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zakk wrote:
Question for the...4 of you who might actually know.

Stage 5 mid-boss: is there a way to predict or influence which side it starts the first attack from?

I'm trying the method where you lock on to one of the bits at the top; but I find if the bullets start coming from the same side as I'm locked onto I die. If they come from the other side I cancel them all before they hit me. And I suspect it isn't random..



I was going to ask the samething , why is it necessary for me to shoot the left top gun pod off ? also is there a safe way to do this ?

Thanks
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Last edited by Trevor spencer on Mon May 17, 2010 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:49 pm 


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You destroy those 3 segements of the stage 5 midboss for points. Lots of points.

If you're getting hit before you destroy the bit in the top left maybe you aren't high enough. Try moving up when you think the bullets are going to appear and that little bit of extra time should be enough. I assume you're using the Panzer Jager if this part is giving you problems because the lock on speed is slower. On the first loop it is very easy to do this with the Tiger Schwert.

The first side the bullets come from is random as far as I know.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:11 am 


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MrMonkeyMan wrote:
You destroy those 3 segements of the stage 5 midboss for points. Lots of points.

If you're getting hit before you destroy the bit in the top left maybe you aren't high enough. Try moving up when you think the bullets are going to appear and that little bit of extra time should be enough. I assume you're using the Panzer Jager if this part is giving you problems because the lock on speed is slower. On the first loop it is very easy to do this with the Tiger Schwert.

The first side the bullets come from is random as far as I know.


Ok thanks ;) yeah im using Panzer
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:25 pm 


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For the record, though, it can be done consistently with Panzer Jager regardless of what side the bullets come from. Sounds like you just need to move up further...


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:15 am 


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You get points for collecting chips in X Mode when your boss counter reaches a certain point. It's hard to tell where. Their point value might even increase the higher you boss multiplier gets. I'm pretty sure the value of a chip also effects the amount of points they give.

I tested this on the stage 4 midboss. I tried not to get too many chips before the midboss and when I finished him off I wasn't getting any points from the chips and then after a second the chips started giving me points so I must have crossed the threshold right then. I suicided and the multiplier stopped at 2600 so it must have been around 3000-3500 when I started getting points.

The interesting part is the amount of points you get from the chips when you have the blue suicide bullets is greatly increased (not to mention the stage end bonus is doubled). I played through stage 4 in training (red suicide bullets) and got 75 million points playing decent enough without the end bonus. I checked my best replay and I got around 40 million more points, so it's a big difference.

Chips collected from stage bosses don't seem to be worth anything though.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:30 am 


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Ah, I was wondering how blue suicide bullets benefited score.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:38 pm 


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Anyone got a decent pic of where the hitboxes are on both ships ?
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:52 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Ketsui
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:33 pm 



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That illustration suggests they have different sizes. Is this correct?
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