GD: DOJ system and strat

For posting and requesting strategic gameplay tips on shmups!
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

I did record it but I deleted it afterwards by loading a savestate. That sucked ><
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Post by CRI »

from doj score thread:
i will try to hyper earlier at st. 1 and collect the 3 bee's at the end of st. 2 (were i uesed hyper at my video) without hyper mode.
maybe that will give me another hyper item at this point.
i tryed it and it worked fine. (2112 hit at stage 2)
if anyone care to see a replay of st. 1&2 here you go: (~46mb)

http://www.speedshare.org/download.php?id=417CEF753

thx again for the feedback at doj scorethread.
if everything fail and the midboss start his 2nd pattern on the right side of the screen don't panic. (i mean the part were you can't get the bee that easy if you fail)
if that happen just hold your combo till he is on the left were he is covering the bee.
now activate hyper and get the bee. (this will also do aura damage)
because of the aura damage he die faster and i think more popcorn enemy appear when he die.
because of that conecting the cain will be more easy.
just hold laser till it conect and change to c.
i only had to use this plan b like 3 or 4 times but success was 100%.
also i think with that plan b it dosent matter were you stand at the screen when the boss die.
did this plan b again and did a record: (~6mb)
http://www.speedshare.org/download.php?id=558F41D011

really start to like this plan b because i never had a broken chain after the midboss die with this one.
maybe this will become my plan a.
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Post by jpj »

i'm starting to feel more confident with my stage 5 1st midboss strategy also. just need to stop making mistakes straight afterwards in the beehive/honey-comb section straight after... ~_~;

in full runs, i am getting quite good at chaining the diagonal platforms also, but still no joy with this 1up cannon. i will practice some stage select on ps2, but i need to play dangun some more before i sell it. then i want to play ibara. and i also bought a raiden 2 pcb on ebay by mistake.. :roll: i just with the shells did not appear so randomly.
PROMETHEUS wrote:omfg something rly annoying just happened,
i was doing a run and got to the stg 4 boss normally with a ok score, and when I arrived at the rotating bits part where you need to wait for them to adopt a certain formation, it just kept doing the wrong formation again and again and again until the boss TIMED OUT, leaving me into stage 5 with 1 hyper. WHAT THE FUCK.
sorry, but i did laugh at this :lol:
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Post by moozooh »

CRI wrote:i tryed it and it worked fine. (2112 hit at stage 2)
if anyone care to see a replay of st. 1&2 here you go: (~46mb)

http://www.speedshare.org/download.php?id=417CEF753
How do I download from that site? I only see a lot of ads after clicking on "download", and nothing else.
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Post by jpj »

wait ten seconds, scroll to the bottom, and click the small grey Download button :)
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

hey jpj, what's your consistency on the first 3 stages ?
I'm like :
Stage 1 = 50% (often break my chain somewhere in the beginning, then I restart)
Stage 2 = 50% (break my chain cause of the fucking power up items or die...)
Stage 3 = 40% (too much chain breaks, wrong hyper meter @ the end, or deaths...)

then
Stage 4 = 40%
Stage 5 = 40%

So only about 1/10 runs gets past stage 3 in ok conditions (meaning if I perform well on the next 2 stages I could score over 500M in loop 1). Or 1/5 if I'm not counting the stage 1 restarts which are not such a big deal, although definitely annoying.

This is much harder than Dodonpachi, the chaining is more difficult and it's a lot more difficult to survive. There are also 2 or 3 places that almost purely rely on luck (parts in stage 2 where the power up items can fuck you up). I like a harder game than Dodonpachi when the system is more forgiving, but it's even more exponential and unforgiving here. I'm starting to think I like Dodonpachi more than DOJ -_-
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Post by jpj »

about 0% :(
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

lol how did you manage 509M, did you try 1000 times? ><
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Post by jpj »

just kidding :wink:

i assume we are talking about score as well as survival, ie full chain and no deaths?

stage 1: 95% (occasional mistake after the turret, or a death on the boss once in a blue moon. i connect the last bee the same way as CRI's 243m video, which is a small sacrifice in score - missing only one enemy from the chain - for a much better/easier consistency)

stage 2: 90% (occasionally get fucked on the midboss, i play the boss very aggressive, so drop a life there maybe 1 in 3, but the sacrifice in maximum bonus is worth it to start stage 3 with 2 hypers, i think, because i rarely no-miss no-bomb the 3rd boss if i hyper)

stage 3: 80% (i usually have one hyper and 90% on the gauge before the midboss, so i'm gonna persevere to learn the midboss trick, because i usually have a hyper ready for the second half if i end up dying. which i always do XD if i have no-miss no-bombed the first two stages, and hypered the stage 2 boss, maybe 70%)

so quite good here. it would be rare for me to play a run where i score less than 140-160m.

for the other stages...

stage 4: i have yet to connect the 1up cannon, so i'll have to give a more fragmented answer. for the first chain, up to the diagonal platforms, getting 800+ hits, i would say 70-80%. for the diagonal platforms, i practiced a slightly altered strategy last week, and did it three times in a row, but you need the first part to be successful to generate the hyper needed to connect the final diagonal platforms. from start of the level to the 1up cannon, perhaps 40%? not very authorative answer because i haven't played it properly for a few weeks. 1up cannon: 0% :lol: on my last credit, the section after the 1up cannon, i chained entirely, but that's rare for me. i would estimate i could do it maybe 15-20% of the time. for the boss, i almost always have one miss, and struggle mainly with the blue pattern during his first form, or the rank is just too high from previous hypers. getting 3 or more hypers ready for stage 5, probably about 40%. by and large i will usually make 40m on stage 4 :( i need to seriously improve here

stage 5: full chain of 2000-2500 hits, probably 10%. the game and rank is very dynamic, so i guess it depends on a lot of factors. but now i have a pattern that i'm happy with on the first midboss, probably more like 20%? connecting the whole level in two chains of 1000 hits (whether by death, or broken chain from the 1st midboss/honey-comb section) about 50-60%. maybe higher, i don't usually have deaths in the second-half of the level, problem is more with having hypers at the correct time/place. however, i said recently to CRI that my 500m was the only time i also connected the chain into the last bee, which, with a chain of 2000-2500 is worth 20-30m just on it's own! :shock: you really need hypers at the right time to connect into it.

if i play 5 credits, i would be surprised not to have a 250-300m score before it's gameover. i made a 400m in black label, and a 500m in white label, and i have slightly given up since then, so i don't really know how often i could do that. i made a full chain in stage 5 many times on ps2 level select before i actually did it in a full run, but my problem i think was a poor strategy for the 1st midboss in stage 5. when you estimate 40% for stage 5, is that more from broken chains, or deaths?

what is your issue with luck on stage 2 and power-ups? is that the large tank that appears on the left near the start, or the midboss section? i don't get any problems here. if it's the midboss, and the power-up decides to fly off in a weird way, just avoid it entirely until you have killed him. if he is doing his last pattern, and the power-up is about to fly into you at the bottom of the screen, use your hyper. you'll only get about 1600-1700 hits for the stage, but it's only about a 10m loss
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

interesting

Well for stage 5 I think I can full, or nearly full chain the level about 40% of the time. The other 60% I would most often break the chain, but sometimes die also. I'm rather happy about my rates on stage 4 and 5, but the first 3 stages are terrible for me. Maybe I should just switch to A-E now T_T
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Post by jpj »

for real. so are you saying you can FULLY chain stage 4 about 40%? :shock: or 40% up to the 1up cannon?

i mainly play full runs, so i guess i've played those first 3 stages a whole lot.

and can someone explain to me how the extend system works in the second loop (for both white and black versions, if possible)?
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Post by Plasmo »

White label:
-During the second loop, you get an extend after every stage that you clear without deaths (bombing doesn't matter)
-There's a 1-Up in 2-4, same as first loop.

Black label:
-You only get the extend from 2-4.
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Post by jpj »

ah cheers, i was unsure about the no deaths for white label :)
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

No I guess I chain stage 4 until after the 1-up canon about 40% of the time, then 10% for a full chain maybe, I don't know.
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Post by jpj »

i chained the 1up cannon 8) when i was shooting the left section, i had 1 shell drop in front of me, so that meant i had longer to destroy the tanks before moving into the middle. got lucky and destroyed six shells. acvtivated the hyper as late as i felt i could get away with, tapped A four times on the right section, and went as high as i could to kill the middle and go it! :D

then i lost the chain anyway on the horizontal turret things :lol:

i think i'm gonna abandon any hopes of full-chaining 1-4 for at least a while.

also getting very consistent with my chain before that section :D
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Post by TLB »

Nice job, jpj :) I just started playing again, got a 32 million score yesterday at like 1 in the morning, woo hoo! I was going to keep playing and compete with (and LOSE TO) sikraiken, but I'm addicted to my USB Saturn pad =X So I just cleared the easiest game ever earlier this afternoon (BWR+) and now I'm going to try to loop DDP. Then I'll come back :)

And I don't know how the hell I'm going to get anywhere in that game. DDP seems to be faster paced in the earlier stages than DOJ, but it's about a quarter as difficult :P Maybe when I get my stick and/or Saturn pad with adapter...And XRGB...Yeah, I think I'm just going to chill on getting ANYTHING but an XRGB for now. XRGB-2.

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Post by ncp »

Started playing DOJ a lot again the past couple of days, been doing 1-4 over and over in simulation. Since I almost always bomb the last pattern of the 1-3 boss, I can't start 1-4 with a hyper which will probably decimate my overall scoring even once I can chain it in a full run. The diagonal platforms, the 1up cannon, and the horizontal turrets are major chain-breakers for me, so my average 1-4 practice run is broken into 4 small chains, which basically translates to a crappy score. Maybe I'm being pessimistic here but I don't see myself nailing this any time soon. My score has basically hit a brick wall for now at about 110million-ish (my high score table has 5 of nearly the exact same score :lol: )

Anyway what actually motivated me to post is that I was wondering if anyone knows any good A-L vids? All the superplays and stuff use A-E, so it's really hard to find good chain strats for Laser. Also, first post here but I've posted a bit on cave-stg with the name necpmf.
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Post by malik11 »

ncp wrote:Anyway what actually motivated me to post is that I was wondering if anyone knows any good A-L vids? All the superplays and stuff use A-E, so it's really hard to find good chain strats for Laser. Also, first post here but I've posted a bit on cave-stg with the name necpmf.
I'm with you on this one. I haven't found any videos using A-L, and I used to think that some parts just cannot be done with it. I never understood how AST-PEY did so well on the DOJ scoreboard with it.
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Post by jpj »

i guess you have the B-L replay on the ps2 disc, which would be easier to execute with the speed of the type A ship; but clover-TAC's chains are not the best ...

of course the flip side of a narrower C shot is having more bombs to dispense, and from what i've seen of your vids malik, you tend to use the laser quite a lot (in sections where i would tap C).

i got some other games i wanna play at the moment, but when i come back i think i'm gonna start practicing the second loop :o
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Post by ncp »

jpj wrote:i guess you have the B-L replay on the ps2 disc, which would be easier to execute with the speed of the type A ship;
Seems like he actually uses shot a lot though, which has just as good a width as (maybe wider than?) the A-E shot.
but clover-TAC's chains are not the best ...
Yeah, I just went through and counted 6 chain breaks throughout 1-4. :roll: If he can't chain that crap, I don't know how the hell I could! Somehow he chains that damn 1-up cannon though, go figure.
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Post by jpj »

nice avatar 8)

the C shot for Exy is wider than that of Laser :) think of it as the Shotia type has a crappy laser, and Laser (or is it Leinyan?) has a narrow C shot. Exy is best of both worlds, but the trade off is having very few bombs.

because 1-4 is probably the single most difficult stage to fully chain (from a timing perspective), my advise like i say to most people is just survive for stage 4, then start learning stage 5. it's easier and will net you more points anyway :)
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Post by ncp »

jpj wrote:nice avatar 8)
Thanks!
the C shot for Exy is wider than that of Laser :) think of it as the Shotia type has a crappy laser, and Laser (or is it Leinyan?) has a narrow C shot. Exy is best of both worlds, but the trade off is having very few bombs.
I was comparing B-L to A-E though :wink: . I realize that Laser will be narrower than Expert of the same ship, but I actually just did a quick comparison myself and here's what I noticed:
-If you position yourself at the very bottom right corner of the screen, then, at max power, B-Laser will hit the exact center of the top of the screen.
-In the same position, at max power, with A-Expert, the shot reaches slightly left of the "Player 2" at the top. (meaning it doesn't reach as far as B-L!)
-A-Laser merely hits the "E" in "Player 2"...

If my bad explanation doesn't make any sense: B-Laser actually has a wider C-shot than A-Expert. Although that point is pretty moot when you consider the superior positioning of A-E's options.
because 1-4 is probably the single most difficult stage to fully chain (from a timing perspective), my advise like i say to most people is just survive for stage 4, then start learning stage 5. it's easier and will net you more points anyway :)
Yeah I think I'm going to start going for stage 5. I've put in a little 1-5 practice, I can 100% consistently chain up to the honeycomb, but it just wrecks my face every time, I've never even come close to chaining it. Need more practice! I should just go back to A-E since I'm going for score, but I just love having the extra bombs for bosses. I actually used to play A-E but when I started playing a lot of DDP I fell in love with the insane bomb stock they give you in that game

Hopefully I can get stage 5 down and eventually get into the top 5-ish on the Hi-scores forum. It'll be a while though :roll: . :wink:
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Post by jpj »

ahhhh... i see what you mean now :)

of course B-L will be slightly slow still, and sometimes having a wide shot is not really beneficial because you want to slowly kill all the popcorn enemies on screen.

i guess that's why everyone likes A-E - it's a very well balanced ship in all aspects :)

110m is a solid score. you should take a snap and post it anyway i think :)

the 1st midboss + honeycomb section is the toughest segment of 1-5 i feel. i guess i would say try learning a chain from the large wall with blue bullets, into the 2nd midboss, and into the last half of the stage. even if you chain 1-5 in two or three separate chains, you're talking 50-100+ mill :D
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Post by Ravid »

jpj wrote:i do the same, it's the 3rd semi-circle of bullets, just before it hits you. so i must be damaging the main turret too much on some runs. it's damn near driving me mad

the stage 3 chain is very tricky, probably not something i would actually do in a run, because it also carries a high risk of death (and wasted hyper). after killing the last circular tower with spinning thorns, release the laser (so as not to reveal the bee behind it), move up left and kill some enemies with tapping C, DON'T destroy the turret to your left firing at you, move to the centre and reveal the bee, continue moving right and activate hyper, tap C as far right as possible til all popcorn are dead, move centre and tap A twice to kill the first section of the flying craft, move left and destroy turret, move to centre and tap A twice, and hold on the third time. by this point the flying craft is virtually sat on top of you, and you have very little breathing space. do it right, and you will connect with the midboss before the chain breaks. this, diagonal platforms, and 1up turret are places where i have to watch the GPM closely, and i hate it for that. having to activate a hyper *just* as it's about to reset :roll: for the midboss (i failed here) you need to point blank him with the laser. you will inevitably take out one arm, but then just concentrate on his body. if you aren't very close to him, you will take too long (my mistake) and the hyper will run out, and you'll lose the chain when he dies anyway. kill him quick, then tap A on the weird circular things he drops, cross your fingers, and the wave of popcorn enemies will come down just in time :D
I've been trying a few times to chain this bit and I'm not sure I understand this strat. I can chain into the midboss, but I can't figure out how to chain through it - killing the boss destroys the circular things too, and killing the circular things with shot doesn't seem to fill up the hit meter. Could someone reupload the clip posted earlier of HFD doing it?
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Post by jonny5 »

expect some questions from me in the very near future 8)
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Post by jpj »

welcome to (probably) the biggest thread in the strat section :o :D

ravid: if you can chain into that thing reliably, that's pretty amazing. i only did it once in ps2 practice mode (taking a break from practicing stage 4 over and over). it's hard to explain, and a moving picture paints a thousand words. i don't have the clip, but i'd recommend picking up the dvd - it's awesome. you sorta point-blank the left arm. point blank the main body. and AFTER he dies, he generates a few of those circular things, and you tap A, and then you get the big wave of enemies. i never chained THROUGH this whole section though, so i cannot promise you it works on white label - i was amazed that chaining into it works :o
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Post by Ravid »

I don't mean to say I can actually do it reliably, I've only played it a few times in practice mode. Just that I can easily see how to chain into it, and that I can at least survive keeping the penis-shaped ship alive long enough to chain it into the midboss. I couldn't figure out at all how to do the chaining out, though. Perhaps this is the part impossible in white label? I'll try what you suggested, using savestates I could set it up in no bullet mode to see if it can at least theoretically be done.

Edit: I rewatched the ISO replay where he does it on loop 2. The differences are: the circular things do not explode when the midboss dies, and firing at them with shot does fill up your hit counter. This leads me to believe that it is not possible to do this trick in white label.

The only way to chain out of the midboss into the next section is, I think, to time it out, but of course you won't be able to do that unless you stop shooting it for a bit which doesn't help much.
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Post by malik11 »

Ravid wrote:This leads me to believe that it is not possible to do this trick in white label.
I can confirm that in the first round of DOJ white label, the depth charge-looking components of the stage three midboss disappear as soon as the core of the midboss is destroyed.

And I've also tried to launch a hyper just as the midboss is destroyed to extend the chain timer until the wave of enemies comes in, but I think the screen is empty for far too long for that to be useful. Letting the midboss time out is, in a way, a reasonable notion, because the wave of enemies comes in immediately as the midboss withdraws.

Therefore, the only way I can envision that chaining all of stage three could be done is to preserve the midboss until it can time out, while hypered, by using the laser intermittently with those taps of the A button that HFD uses on the 1-up cannon in stage four of round one in Black Label. (I believe jpj knows the laser taps that I mean.)

Trying to chain all of stage three is probably a waste of time, and if the parts before and after the midboss cannot be linked, it's probably not even worth the hypers to chain into the midboss, since the player may as a result end up with fewer hypers for stage four.
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Post by Ravid »

malik11 wrote: Therefore, the only way I can envision that chaining all of stage three could be done is to preserve the midboss until it can time out, while hypered, by using the laser intermittently with those taps of the A button that HFD uses on the 1-up cannon in stage four of round one in Black Label. (I believe jpj knows the laser taps that I mean.)
I know what you mean, and I have been able to reproduce them on stage 4 (I use it to chain the first two horizontal turrets if I'm already in hyper mode by the first one). I had that exact thought and tried it; it will not work because the shots will kill the balls and not raise the hit meter. Thus I'm pretty sure it is impossible, which would explain why no one has done it. As for chaining into the midboss, it's very difficult and yields like 75 additional hits, so it would be more worthwhile even to save it until immediately after the midboss (which is what I'm doing atm) for the larger chain.
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Post by TLB »

Approximately how many points do Stages 3 and 4 yield? I don't really feel too much like learning 3 in practice mode, but I may fool around with 4 eventually. Won't be long before I chain Stage 2 in its entirety in a run without screwing up somewhere, and I've gotta have somewhere to go after that =P

I'll post a score once I get 100 millions (still over 30 to go, but a full 2 chain should almost take care of that), but then it probably won't get much higher very quickly. This game is TOUGH =P
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