GD: DOJ system and strat

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Plasmo
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Post by Plasmo »

1000h isn't a whole lot. I spent 1000h on Ikaruga and wasn't even close to the world record. These guys are really that skilled. a westerner would at least need 10000h for a world record or something.
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

EOJ wrote:
captpain wrote:This type of thing makes me wonder how all those Japanese dudes score as high as they do when (as I understand it) they play all on actual arcade hardware O_O
It's simply because they are skilled enough to get scores the old fashioned way.
I'm pretty sure they play a LOT MORE for the same results.

I spent around 600h on Dodonpachi, starting from SUPER NEWBIE skill level. I heard only a bunch of Japanese went over 500M (is that true?), but I'm pretty sure many spent over 1000hours on it in arcades, and were already quite/very skilled when they started. Obviously that's not because I'm gifted or anything, I don't believe in talent, genius and such bullshit. It's because practicing with savestates is definitely way superior.
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jpj
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Post by jpj »

a lot of the ddp records were set in recent years. for all we know they did practice on mame

edit - super tired of seeing the same boring arguments >_<
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third_strike
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Post by third_strike »

I believe in days of plays and no in hours of play for day.
1000h in 1 year is best than 1000h in 6 months.
Too many players in this forum don't get play one game 3 months straight.

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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

jpj wrote:edit - super tired of seeing the same boring arguments >_<
yeah you're right we've been talking about that over and over again
actually I had begun to write a big article about how to practice for Dodonpachi + guide to some parts, ship selection, controller... I should finish it, post it and just link to it in discussions lol
third_strike wrote:I believe in days of plays and no in hours of play for day.
1000h in 1 year is best than 1000h in 6 months.
I think exactly the opposite of that :p
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jpj
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Post by jpj »

i honestly suspect the more recent ddp scores were the result of all the mame save-state/slowdown replays, and players realising the genuine scores were beatable. whather they too praticed via mame isn't something we'll find out. but UDA and GHOST HONE TUKA certainly practiced their WRs on mame. and ketsui and dragon blaze player SYO has also practiced a lot via mame. and ISO practiced ikaruga a lot via stage select on the DC port. yes, playing only via full-runs may take longer; but we need to remember that all games are different. something like ddp is very precise. but would you really need save states to practice something like mushi original mode? a lot of these players though only play to get arcadia records, which is easier/more likely during the first few months of release. players like ISO and TAC have many records, but they also have many records which are subsequently beaten by someone else, because they've already moved onto the next game they want to play. so waiting for a console port, or emulation, is not really a viable option a lot of the time. full runs are more difficult, but so is playing at 104% speed.. :wink:

anyways ... back to this fucking 1up cannon.. :)
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Post by Ex-Goku »

jpj wrote:and ketsui and dragon blaze player SYO has also practiced a lot via mame
I didn't know they have the way to play KETSUI on emu. wtf? :shock:
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Post by moozooh »

They didn't practice Ketsui specifically, they just did practice.
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

jpj wrote:but would you really need save states to practice something like mushi original mode?
I agree some games are definitely easier on memorization and I could see myself practicing for MFBL Maniac scoring without savestates, for example, although of course I would still definitely do better faster with savestates (any part that is hard, for example just a pattern, is best repeated 100s of times in a row).
jpj wrote:a lot of these players though only play to get arcadia records, which is easier/more likely during the first few months of release. players like ISO and TAC have many records, but they also have many records which are subsequently beaten by someone else, because they've already moved onto the next game they want to play. so waiting for a console port, or emulation, is not really a viable option a lot of the time. full runs are more difficult, but so is playing at 104% speed.. :wink:
Of course it's not an option for the guys who play to get arcadia records, that's not the issue. I was just responding to "practicing the old fashioned way takes more skill" which is obviously wrong. Practicing with full runs is more difficult not because it requires more skill but because it wastes more time. It is also different from playing at 104% speed in your high scoring runs, which this time takes more skill (the only thing that matters is the conditions in which you perform your final run, which should be default - the way you practice however is up to you).
jpj wrote:anyways ... back to this fucking 1up cannon.. Smile
eheh yeah, are you getting closer yet? I get it done right about half the time I think. Right now I'm trying to get more consistent on the first 2 thirds of stage 5, I'm almost okay. Gonna start learning the last third soon.
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Post by jpj »

nope. haven't even chained it once so far :( but i'm pre-occupied other games at the moment
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

woot!

The part that comes right after the 1up canon sucks! Each of the horizontally-moving turrets appears at a random position, making the chaining possibilities sort of random as well, apparently. I've only chained the whole level once, getting about 250M before the boss, but taking the last 2 bees with a big hit counter sent me a second hyper, which isn't cool if you want to get 5 hyper gauges during the boss! I'm not sure I'll be able to get consistant at this part. Well I can always take the very last bee only after my chain becomes inactive and get rid of the hyper problem (as well as of 10+M points), but the random part... is here to stay random so far.

Anyone knows how to do the random part consistently ?
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jpj
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Post by jpj »

it is a bit of a pain. the turrets will always strive to appear where you are, so try to be conservative with your movement. if you activated your hyper on the 1up cannon, i'm not sure there's enough time to generate another hyper (?). along with the tap A trick, i also sometimes laser a turret, hold it, and move *away*, and move onto it again. same function as tap A, but you don't have that split second where shot comes out, instead of laser

i know exactly what you mean though. i call that shit in stg's the "evil spread". something manages to appear at exactly the place you don't want it to.. :evil: :roll:
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

yeah that sucks, and the chain breaking there means you lose 50M which is quite a lot. Well... not so much if you can score over 1B.

And no, no hyper if you did the rest of the level properly.
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

I'm starting to figure out this section. Basically you have to learn a couple of different possibilities and where to move / what to shoot depending on them. I can chain through it every couple of tries now. 50M bonus would be nice!
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msm
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Post by msm »

quick question...playing the black label version on the 360, you get loads more hypers, i just want to keep the rank down, would i be better off using a load at once or is it better to use them one at a time?
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

The rank will go up just as much either way, as far as I know.
You can bomb and/or suicide on bosses to get the rank down without breaking any chain.
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Post by msm »

thanks :)
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

I just tried a run with A-E, and nearly got all the chains right using the B-E routes. It is just. the. same. There are only like 2 or 3 particular points in the whole loop that need very minor adjustements. This makes A-E generally better because it's faster so you can easily correct a trajectory or move as fast as possible to the next chaining point : more possibilities of action. Also I assume its laser is stronger, which means the boss battles are shorter = easier. Maybe I will switch to A-E later.
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Post by EOJ »

PROMETHEUS wrote: Practicing with full runs is more difficult not because it requires more skill but because it wastes more time.
It also requires more skill. That's pretty clear to anyone who knows anything about it, really. For example, I never would have gotten the Ikaruga scores I did without the practice modes on the GC and DC versions. Guys like SWY and WIZ got higher scores in the arcade version in less than 2 months of play than I did with 2 years of play with all the practice modes at my disposal. So it all comes down to skill in the end.
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

EOJ wrote:That's pretty clear to anyone who knows anything about it, really.
Are you implying I don't know anything about "it" ?
EOJ wrote:For example, I never would have gotten the Ikaruga scores I did without the practice modes on the GC and DC versions. Guys like SWY and WIZ got higher scores in the arcade version in less than 2 months of play than I did with 2 years of play with all the practice modes at my disposal. So it all comes down to skill in the end.
I would never have gotten my Dodonpachi score without the save states at my disposal either, not because it would have taken more skill but because it would have wasted an insane amount of time and I would have stopped playing long before I would have learned the whole game, out of sheer boredom.

Obviously, your comparison doesn't show practicing with only full runs takes more skill than practicing with level select / save points, instead it implies SWY and WIZ were more skilled when they started playing Ikaruga than you were, which isn't surprising since they probably were major STG geeks before Ikaruga was released and already held crazy scores in other games.

Skill doesn't make a difference in how much time you're wasting when you practice with full runs only as compared to practicing with save points ; instead it makes a difference in how fast you will be improving in either mode of practice. Choosing full runs over save points for practice is only choosing to improve much, much slower.
Last edited by PROMETHEUS on Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by jpj »

keep it on topic please :)
RegalSin wrote:Videogames took my life away like the Natives during colonial times.
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Post by EOJ »

It's pretty simple: highly skilled players can improve and score well quite rapidly on the arcade version without practice modes or save states. Less skilled players need save states and practice modes to compete within the same amount of time. Thus, getting a good score only using the arcade version takes more skill than using practice modes and/or save states (again, with the time put in being equal).
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

EOJ wrote:It's pretty simple: highly skilled players can improve and score well quite rapidly on the arcade version without practice modes or save states. Less skilled players need save states and practice modes to compete within the same amount of time. Thus, getting a good score only using the arcade version takes more skill than using practice modes and/or save states (again, with the time put in being equal).
Your conclusion just comes out of nowhere. A less skilled player will need to perform just as well as the more skilled player to get the same score in the end, because he will need to get that score in a full run. So if he can pull that off, he supposedly has got as much skill (that isn't necessarily true because luck plays a huge role too, so he could have less skill but also more). Playing with save states allowed him to improve his skills much faster, spending more time on the more difficult sections, whereas the highly skilled player stagnated using the inferior practicing method, wasting a lot of time on what is too easy.
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Post by EOJ »

I guess we won't agree here, and I don't want to get this thread too off topic.
Last edited by EOJ on Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by jpj »

practicing with the ps2 level select is all well and dandy, but i wish i hadn't been practicing stages 4 and 5 on default rank... :roll: :x

and fucking up runs by trying the stage 3 midboss chain has become my new party trick :lol:
RegalSin wrote:Videogames took my life away like the Natives during colonial times.
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

I thought someone might be interested, so here is a memcard containing replays from a run I just did where I successfully got the full 1-4 chain, from first enemy to last. I fucked up at the boss and then in 1-5, so this wasn't a new high score, but I had 254M when entering 1-5 so that's nice!

Replay : http://www.mediafire.com/?yeyimfizwzh

About save state practice for DOJ, I actually keep 2 save states of the same place with different ranks if I think it's needed. Well, practicing only at full rank is good anyway, because there is nothing to modify to perform at lower ranks.
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Post by TLB »

That's exactly what I do. Unless I'm extremely new to a game and I want to practice the first stage, I always crank the rank all the way up in practice mode.

I can't wait until I clear galuda so I can fail at Mushi Maniac for a while so I can finally come back to this game =P
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Post by jpj »

getting closer to connecting the stage 3 midboss chain during full runs. i might have to switch to the 2P side though, as my tv cuts off part of the image and i can't see my GPM properly :-S

i tried exactly your technique again CRI for stage 5 first midboss and no success. i must be jinxed :evil: but i am getting better with the early hyper method, but just lost my chain in the honeycombs, and again in the latter section. total 330m (black label - i am for a 500m in black label hopefully soon)
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PROMETHEUS
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Post by PROMETHEUS »

omfg something rly annoying just happened,
i was doing a run and got to the stg 4 boss normally with a ok score, and when I arrived at the rotating bits part where you need to wait for them to adopt a certain formation, it just kept doing the wrong formation again and again and again until the boss TIMED OUT, leaving me into stage 5 with 1 hyper. WHAT THE FUCK.
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Post by TLB »

You get a replay of it?
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